What is the general opinion of tyranids right now?

[Carnage]

I really like the "leaked" 6th edition rule change to hitting vehicles. Moving 6" or less and they counted as WS1, moving more then 6" and they count as WS10. So genestealers, Tyrants and Trygons had an even easier time hitting slow moving vehicles, and faster ones were still hit on a 4+ usually. I mean, when you are a HtH pro, you should be more adept then a grot at hitting a moving vehicle.

As for ranged anti-tank. Unless something shifts in the main rules about the vehicle damage table we will need some of our weapons amended to be more effective.

[Draconis]

Cept with preferred enemy, you'd hit vehicles on 3+ all the time.

[Necrofencer]

I really like the "leaked" 6th edition rule change to hitting vehicles. Moving 6" or less and they counted as WS1, moving more then 6" and they count as WS10. So genestealers, Tyrants and Trygons had an even easier time hitting slow moving vehicles, and faster ones were still hit on a 4+ usually. I mean, when you are a HtH pro, you should be more adept then a grot at hitting a moving vehicle.

As for ranged anti-tank. Unless something shifts in the main rules about the vehicle damage table we will need some of our weapons amended to be more effective.

Maybe you missed the part where the CC to-hit chart of the "leak" went up to 6+ then. Because that made vehicles HARDER to hit for anything not WS5. Also, Preferred Ennemy doesn't do anything against vehicles in the "leaked" ruleset, IIRC.

[PostinDirty]

I started using all reserves lists as well, and they are mighty fun to play. But I can't touch transports, and if an opponent is heavily meched then its gg. Just yesterday I had a poded dakkafex and twin brainleech worm tyrant light up the rear armor of a a SM rhino. The rhino was smoked, so he made a few cover saves and -1 on the damage chart hurt a lot too. The best I could do was shake it. Almost 500 points couldn't take out a rhino! Guess what happened to that carnifex and tyrant on his turn...

For a laugh, I once tried an all-reserve list. I can't remember exactly what I had, but I know that it was based around podding in 3 dakka-fexes, along with a winged dakka-tyrant (with HC, obviously). So, my tyrant/fexes would bravely pod in, kill a 35pt transport... and then die in the enemy turn. It was a fun list, but just couldn't do anything meaningful against mech.

you're doing it wrong :P

eh, I've done ok with ymgarls and regular genestealers to crack transports. I also DS my trygons and CC tyrant, and they've done a solid job too.

Now, I'm not trying to flex my internet muscle by saying I've cracked the 'nid code or anything, there have been times the IG parking lot has creamed me, and like I've said; DE venom spam was a pointless game, the one time i faced it. I'm also not the best player by any means. But with my list I've won every game so far against mech-eldar and meched space marines I generally find a walk in the park. its the list I've had the most experience with so I guess I just make it work for me, and its largely CC, but transports haven't been an issue.

....and I've lost count of just how many 'stealers I've lost to exploding vehicles.

yep. I really should know by now that I should crack vehicles in a certain order too; there've been times when I've multi-assaulted, only to blow away models in a unit engaged with another target before they've had a chance to strike - oops

[Vipoid]

you're doing it wrong :P

Oddly enough, I didn't make my 1-dakka-tyrant-plus-3-dakkafexes-in-pods list with the expectation that it would become a tournament-winner.

I simply wanted to see if such a list could be made to work. The idea was that the carnifexes/tyrant would arrive on my opponent's backline (with hive commander, I'd expect 2/4 of my dakka-MCs to arrive in one turn), and either blast a unit or pop a vehicle by firing into its rear armour. The theory was that my opponent would be in trouble, because they'd have just 1 turn to kill 2 of my MCs, before they got into combat with things.

As it turned out, one turn was often more than enough, and the fact that my army arrived piecemeal made it easy for my opponent to concentrate fire.

eh, I've done ok with ymgarls and regular genestealers to crack transports. I also DS my trygons and CC tyrant, and they've done a solid job too.

Now, I'm not trying to flex my internet muscle by saying I've cracked the 'nid code or anything, there have been times the IG parking lot has creamed me, and like I've said; DE venom spam was a pointless game, the one time i faced it. I'm also not the best player by any means. But with my list I've won every game so far against mech-eldar and meched space marines I generally find a walk in the park. its the list I've had the most experience with so I guess I just make it work for me, and its largely CC, but transports haven't been an issue.

I'd be interested to see your list, if you'd care to post it.

[Ventus]

I'd also be interested to see your list PostinDirty.

[itcamefromthedeep]

I really like the "leaked" 6th edition rule change to hitting vehicles. Moving 6" or less and they counted as WS1, moving more then 6" and they count as WS10.

The .pdf I have says that it's WS10 if they move at all, even 1". PDF page 43 for reference. WS 0 if the vehicles stays still.

I think a WS value would be a good idea for vehicle because vehicles should play by the rules more.

It's odd that there are two sets of rules: the rules and the rules for vehicles.

[Vipoid]

I think a WS value would be a good idea for vehicle because vehicles should play by the rules more.

Whilst I agree with this, WS10 seems silly. To me, it's reminiscent of GK vehicles all having the same Ld as a Grand Master, for the purposes of their psychic powers.

It's odd that there are two sets of rules: the rules and the rules for vehicles.

Yeah - this also creates massive differences between a weapon's effect on infantry, compared to it's effect on vehicles. For example, Impailer Cannons can shread the armour of most vehicles, but bounce off terminator armour. Conversely, a disintegrator can obliterate terminators, but struggles to scratch the hull of a Rhino.

[Souleater]

Tyranid close combat troops suffer from a shortage of armor, Attacks, and power weapons relative to dedicated close combat units.

Reading back through this thread I think the above is one of the truest and sadly most telling points. While I'm quite happy with the lack of armour I find the shortage of the other two frankly baffling.

Our anti-horde capabilites have increased slightly but continual degradation of WS, Attacks and Strength has kept us weak against MEQ. Add in things that the GK, BA and SW can do and our HTH capabilites often pale into insignificance.

The problem, IMO, is that GW have got 'horde army vs Heroes(tm)' firmly stuck in their minds.

[Vipoid]

Reading back through this read I think the above is one of the truest and sadly most telling points. While I'm quite happy with the lack of armour I find the shortage of the other two frankly baffling.

I've often wondered about this - especially when I saw Death Cult Assassins (how many S4 power-weapon attacks? ).

Our anti-horde capabilites have increased slightly but continual degradation of WS, Attacks and Strength has kept us weak against MEQ. Add in things that the GK, BA and SW can do and our HTH capabilites often pale into insignificance.

As I think was said earlier, Tyranids seem to have lost their niche. Orks to hordes better, several races have better and/or more cost-effective MCs, a lot of races have units that crush our dedicated-CC units. We just don't seem to have any defined niche, other than the depressing ability to do nothing well.

The problem, IMO, is that GW have got 'horde army vs Heroes(tm)' firmly stuck in their minds.

To be honest, I don't actually mind this design philosophy.

What I mind is that GW have a very definite idea about who is meant to win.

[Souleater]

Itcamefromthedeep and I have batted around shooty nids. I like shooty Nids and there is no denying their effectiveness in the current edition. I have no issue with Nids having shooting elements but as you say our CC focus seems to have gotten messed up.

It got to the point in 4th Edition that I would happily take on CWE in firefights and generally come out ahead. In 5th Edition my answer to Orks is not to try and out manoeuvre them but to bomb the smeg out of them.

We finally got power weapons back on Warriors only to find they became even more fragile to the exact things that hindered them before. Hormagaunts finally got a boost to damage but saw their WS inexplicably nerfed on the assumption that they would always be under the effect of Catalyst*. Genestealers were meant to be amongs the most dangerous HTH opponents in the galaxy but are now in a weird not-quite-horde-not-quite-elite state.

I suppose you are right about the Hordes vs Heroes bit - but the rules should still not go so far to push victory to the 'heroes'. Sure, Nids hordes should die in droves to shooting but when we get to assault we either need to be elite or able to actually be effective.

*While curiously retaining a BS equal to an Imperial Guardsman.

[Vipoid]

We finally got power weapons back on Warriors only to find they became even more fragile to the exact things that hindered them before. Hormagaunts finally got a boost to damage but saw their WS inexplicably nerfed on the assumption that they would always be under the effect of Catalyst*. Genestealers were meant to be amongs the most dangerous HTH opponents in the galaxy but are now in a weird not-quite-horde-not-quite-elite state.

Warriors are in a depressing state at the moment. Cruddace apparently didn't bother looking back to see why they'd been given EW, and decided instead to replace it with an extra wound, of all things.

Genestealers... are somewhat messed up at the moment, although admittedly not to the degree of warriors. Just 2 attacks each and no option for more seems more than a little dubious. I mean, I know they have good WS and I, but we're still paying marine prices for a unit with no ranged weapons, no transport, and a negligible save. Thing is, I wouldn't have minded this as much if they came with grenades. So... we're handing out grenades for free to every guardsman and marine, but an actual assault unit, which relies on striking first, isn't allowed any grenades at all.

So, what does come with grenades in our army:

Lictors (Weee...)
The Harpy (All two of its attacks...)
The Carnifex (Well praise the lord. Our I1 creature isn't reduced to I1 for charging through cover. I hate you, Cruddace.)

I suppose you are right about the Hordes vs Heroes bit - but the rules should still not go so far to push victory to the 'heroes'. Sure, Nids hordes should die in droves to shooting but when we get to assault we either need to be elite or able to actually be effective.

I quite agree. Although, I think GW has lost track of what a 'hero' actually is. Generally, someone is called heroic when they triumph against the odds. Succeeding when the odds are stacked entirely in your favour rarely result in you obtaining the title 'hero'.

For me, calling someone like Draigo a hero because he defeated 'nids or Daemons would be like calling The Dark Lord Sauron a hero, because he stomped on some orphans.

[wyvirn]

@ Vipod: You forgot to mention the one grenade option option we have is on the carnifex, so we can pay points to preserve the I1 when charging through cover.

[Vipoid]

@ Vipod: You forgot to mention the one grenade option option we have is on the carnifex, so we can pay points to preserve the I1 when charging through cover.

Ah yes... it's an upgrade... and it doesn't even come with a spinefist anymore...

[Angelwing]

@ Vipod: You forgot to mention the one grenade option option we have is on the carnifex, so we can pay points to preserve the I1 when charging through cover.

Ah yes... it's an upgrade... and it doesn't even come with a spinefist anymore...

The carnifex is I3 on the charge, I4 if you take the swarmlord and confer furious charge.

Admittedly though I wouldn't bother with frag spines anymore.

[Carnage]

The carnifex is I3 on the charge, I4 if you take the swarmlord and confer furious charge.

Admittedly though I wouldn't bother with frag spines anymore.

Also I4 if you go with adrenal glands. The bump to S10 is kind of overkill though, but swinging at the same time as MeQ isn't too bad.

[Souleater]

Another problem is that we can't trap passengers in vehicles and kill them that way under 5th. It used to be worth the risk of the vehicle exploding in order to kill a bunch of marines...now we don't get that and they shoot us. Double whammy.

[the_picto]

A thought occurs to me, how much difference would it make if the impaler cannon was more widely available? Add it to the list of heavy weapons that warriors can take, let the harpy have a twin linked one instead of venom cannons (I imagine a lot of people would prefer the impaler to the heavy venom cannon) and let tyrants and carnifexes have them as a weapon option. The book has a lot of other issues, but this would give a bit more flexibility on where to get anti tank guns.

[Vipoid]

A thought occurs to me, how much difference would it make if the impaler cannon was more widely available? Add it to the list of heavy weapons that warriors can take, let the harpy have a twin linked one instead of venom cannons (I imagine a lot of people would prefer the impaler to the heavy venom cannon) and let tyrants and carnifexes have them as a weapon option. The book has a lot of other issues, but this would give a bit more flexibility on where to get anti tank guns.

As a guess, you'd see it on warriors, and nothing else (besides hive guard). There's no point paying for an overpriced tyrant, carnifex, or harpy, when you can have it on a 90pt unit.

it would be nice to have the option on warriors, but it would make more sense to just make the venom cannon and heavy venom cannon actually worth a damn.

However, it would be nice if hive tyrants could choose either hive guard or tyrant guard to accompany them.

[wyvirn]

That would be sweet, although I hope they would be condensed into a single unit with an upgrade, I'm sick of looking up the hive guard when I mean the Tyrant guard...
^Just one of the dozens of small pet peeves about the actual codex and it's layout.