My favorite Legion is the World Eaters. They understood what they were good at and embraced it more thoroughly than any Legion. There is a strong martial honor about them, as well as an inherent tragedy that I find very compelling.
My favorite Primarch is Sanguinius (shocker, I know). I see him as a being as wracked by inner turmoil as Konrad but without an inherent selfishness that feeds off of that turmoil. Plus, I love the concept of a doomed angel.
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"In the Battle of Terra, Sanguinius fought valiantly, organising the final defence of the Imperial Palace and holding the Eternity Gate alone when no others would withstand the horror of the assault, even breaking the back of the same Greater Daemon Ka'Bandha who wounded him on Signum. When the Emperor teleported aboard Horus's Battle Barge, the Vengeful Spirit, Sanguinius was with him but they became separated and the Primarch was forced to face Horus first. Even in the pit of Horus's tainted and mutated Chaos fuelled Battle Barge did Sanguinius try to revert his brother to the side of the Emperor, using their old friendship as a lever. Horus would not listen to or agree with any of Sanguinius' words and the two argued and tried to sway the other to the side of the heresy they stood upon. Sanguinius was eventually struck down by Horus, the only damage Sanguinius doing was creating a small dent in Horus' armour. Some say, however, that it was through this chink in Horus's armour that the Emperor was able to deliver the fatal blow. Thus the belief is that Sanguinius did not die in vain, but dying, allowed Horus to be slain and the Heresy destroyed.Originally Posted by DietDolphin
He did try to wait around but even in facing certain death he never waviered he stood strong, though cost him everything. I am pretty sure he was hoping the Emperor would arrive on time, but he didnt. I read in some older fiction, in White Dwarf back in early 90's the Emperor came in while the two were fighting and stood motionless, when Horus struck Sanguinius down, the Emperor knew Horus was lost forever and knew the Warmaster was indeed totally Chaos instrument. I ll look back in my older WD's and try to find it.
“Three Legions of Marines stand to defend you, sire. All of us will unflinchingly place ourselves between you and the war’s desolation. We are the greatest humans ever born – we are the flame of Humanity where the rest of the galaxy is just the spark. In centuries of warfare, against the vileness of the alien, the lies of the heretic, the foulness of the mutant, I have never known fear – but your silence terrifies me.” - Primarch Sanguinius during the Battle for Terra". Sanguinius last remarks to the Emperor before they borded Horus Battle Barge.
And yes I do think he is the best, again Regal Dorn would be my number 2 and RG of the Ultramarines would be my #3.
The enemies of the Emperor fear many things.
They fear discovery, defeat, despair and death.
Yet there is one thing they fear above all others.
They fear the wrath of the Blood Angels!
If thats true then that makes more sense. I just haven't read anything that states he was forced into the fight. Where is this quote from anyway?
As for the Emperor knowing Horus was lost forever, there have been many different versions of this with Horus killing a guard, terminator, custodes or Sanguinius. Will be interesting to see what they go with in the HH series.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinius
The enemies of the Emperor fear many things.
They fear discovery, defeat, despair and death.
Yet there is one thing they fear above all others.
They fear the wrath of the Blood Angels!
Favorite Legion: Dark Angels (Although I was disappointed with Descent and Fallen Angels, but happy with Angels of Darkness)
I like the "Knightly Order/Monastic" concept, and the position of "Lord Cypher." I also really like the concept of the Deathwing.
A close second would be the Iron Hands. The "Morlocks" and having Dreadnaughts in the command structure.
Favorite Primarch: Magnus. Seems loyal to a fault and had the hubris to believe he could outsmart chaos. Too bad he fell apart there at the end. He obviously saw events that would happen to his legion and took steps to ensure some of it remained loyal (or at least oblivious to their downfall).
A second would be Sanguinius. He's got wings dude!
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I'm impressed by the turn around in Lorgar's fortunes since The First Heretic. I remember posting ages ago, before ADB's excellent book was released, that Lorgar was my favourite Primarch (or, at least, the one I found most interesting - I also love Dorn).
Lorgar's interesting to me because he is the one Primarch who wasn't a warlord by inclination. Guilliman seemed to realise that the Primarchs were only intended to be warlords as an interim measure, until the Great Crusade was done, but he managed to grasp both his duties as a warlord and his future purpose as a leader of humanity at the same time - hence Ultramar's rather excellent condition as an efficient empire within the Imperium. Lorgar, on the other hand, seemed to enter this spectrum on the side away from being a warlord (where poor old Angron seems to have been stuck on the warlord end of the spectrum from the outset).
A large part of Lorgar's problem was his lack of faith in himself rather than his faith in his father. Had he trusted his own Primarch-made excellence a bit more he perhaps wouldn't have been so easily goaded by Kor Phaeron throughout his youth (and later). Had he cared a little less for what those he trusted thought of him, he would probably have been able to come up with much better ideas and bulldoze them through, rather than relying on lesser men. By the time the Emperor arrived, Lorgar was already sculpted to be a particular person with a particular mindset not entirely suited for warlordism.
Another major issue for Lorgar (which only adds to his interest for me) is that he was utterly tormented by psyker-generated nightmares - so not just disturbed sleep with non-existent boogie men in the shadows, but screaming horror that tore him from sleep with fits and nosebleeds. He had these for most of his life because of his latent psychic powers and they obviously had a big effect on what he became - as indeed they would anyone I suppose. In many ways he is similar to Angron. Angron didn't have a chance to develop normally because of his brain implants and the endless brutality of his life (up until the Emperor grabbed him). Lorgar was equally tortured, albeit psychically, and he was brought up on a Chaos worshiping world where his adoptive father was a closet cultist who insisted day in and day out that Lorgar was a demigod.
So for me it isn't just about Lorgar being 'weak' or whatever else. He's as powerful as any other Primarch. It's the Primarchs' backgrounds that allowed them to shine or descend into shadows. Lorgar's utter rejection of the Emperor isn’t something we can fully understand here. If anyone reading this has experienced the complete unfairness of being bullied at work and then fired because of the incompetence or lies of the line manager you trusted up until then - the same line manager who is also recommending for you to be fired - then we could say that that feeling is the merest fraction of what Lorgar felt. I doubt many of us would want to chat to our old line manager if we were treated that way, much less if he was our friend and then turned on us without a blink, telling us all the work we'd done under his supervision was unacceptable and always had been unacceptable, but he just didn't think to mention it before. he waited until you'd done more work than you could ever just correct and then strutted out onto the office floor to scream and shout that you're completely incompetent in way that no other employee is, and that it's all your own fault. he doesn't mention his role at all.
Or perhaps if there was a father who knew his son was gay, seemed to accept it and never even mention it despite the fact his son never hides it, then one day beats the crapola out of his son's boyfriend and smacks his son down as well, in public and in front of all his friends and siblings, while saying that it was never okay for his son to be gay and that it was his son's 'fault' that he's gay and that it has to just end 'or else'.
Well here we have an even bigger version of any of that. The Emperor's betrayal of Lorgar was pretty appalling because it wasn't as if Lorgar hid his beliefs and practices from his father or the Imperium more widely. There was no warning; no gentle reprimand. It was just decades (more than a century?) of normality and then suddenly the complete destruction of a whole civilisation, one of Lorgar's greatest achievements, followed by the mind rape and total subjugation of all of Lorgar's gene-sons, all without so much as an explanation beyond "you did wrong and this abomination is the only way to make you learn. Oh, but it isn't really an abomination because I, the Emperor, say it isn't, and even though I insist that I'm not the god you say I am, I certainly expect everyone to accept my planetary destruction as right and proper without question. Get it wrong again and I'll use my godlike powers to make you grovel in the dust before sending you the way of your other two brothers that I've forbidden you to even talk about."
THEN Lorgar finds out that on top of this insanely abusive and hubristic behaviour, the Emperor was objectively lying about the 'supernatural'. There were gods and daemons and angels and souls and blessings and magic - more stuff, in fact, than he believed in his Emperor worship. Lorgar's great failing was that he was obsessed with the idea of Truth (capital 'T'), and when he found that the reality of the gods was also pretty obscene, well he fell from grace as it were. He was already too far along the road to 'Truth' and championing it to turn back.
Still though, there is a part of him who hates all he has learned and all that he thinks he has to do, because it IS so abjectly awful. In this respect he has more conscience than some of the other Primarchs who fell because, even though he never waivers from his task, he does know self doubt and still has trouble accepting the horror he is unleashing. Which is cool, I think.
Add all this to the fact that there would be no Heresy were it not for Lorgar and that the servants of the Gods as a Pantheon seem to have a modicum of respect for Lorgar because of his altruism, even if it's a misplaced altruism at the cost of all humanity, I think Lorgar is a very interesting character.
I also like the Word Bearers, although as they fall more into Chaos my interest starts to wane a bit. I'm a big fan of Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists though, and I'm looking forward to them getting their own Heresy novel before long.
Last edited by MvS; 25-04-2012 at 15:32.
Complete Rules for the Chaos Legions make a return at last!
Updated and revised for the 6th Edition.
I cannot wait for the (hopefully there will be one) Iron Hands novel, and how they rebuild. Hopefully they will kill some Emperor's Children, and even better, rip Julius Kaesoron into shreds!
Sqallum
Well said MvS.
For me, its obvious. Angron and the World Eaters.
Angron has just been waiting, raging off in the distance, for an author to finally bring him a history, and a measure of the depth that any character can be given. ADB will be that man. From the old fluff he had a rebellious streak, a desire for freedom for all people, but we also knew him to be damaged beyond repair. Honour, Rage, Self Reliance, and Will to carry on!
The World Eaters: I started this game as the plastics where released many many years ago. The relentlessness, and brutality in a universe that cares for nothing of rights, or justice, or fairness had me hooked. Their morality, and some of the fluff around them (and Khorne) takes a very nihilistic view I find. They embrace what they are, weapons in humanoid shape, and attempt to build a framework around that of skill, and honour. Tagore however knows where it's taking them in the Outcast Dead, and I liked that bit quite a bit. :]
Noise Marines
I have to disagree MvS, not with your analysis, but your portray of Lorgar as some kind of tragic character. Lorgar is petulant child given infinite power and acts like it.
Lorgar was warned, many times, not to worship the Emperor as a god. He willfully chose to ignore it and believe that the big E was just denying his own divinity. The emperor had good reason to stop worship with the imperial truth as well, denying the chaos gods strength, and again Lorgar willfully chose to ignore this decree. When the Ultramarines enacted the lesson Lorgar didn't learn from it, no, he went deeper into his ways. As Guiliman says in Know no Fear he is incapable of seeing the middle, it is always one extreme or the other. His need to worship is an example of this.
Lorgar is not some tortured soul either like Konrad Kruze or Angron. He had plenty of exposure to his father and his brothers. He did not grow up abused or tormented. Even if you can argue that he was manipulated by Kor Phaedon, the fact of the matter is he grew up pretty much according to his own devices.
Ultimately, Lorgar is the epitome of weakness. He is always willing to allow others to guide him (kor phaedon, erebus, the chaos gods) and never stands on his own, he has no problem sacrificing others, and of course never accepts humanity for what it is. This last part is his greatest crime in that he believes humanity must have faith to survive, it must have guidance from beings greater than humanity. The emperor may be the patron of humanity but is ultimately human and has always expressed himself as such. The emperor knew that humanity must be able to stand on its own inner-strength to survive in the universe and Lorgar, among even all other primarchs, refuses to accept this truth.
That is why Lorgar is not tragic, but simply evil and in no way sympathetic in my mind.
"But I being poor have only my dreams. Tread softly, for you tread on my dreams." ~ Yeats
General of: ~3k Necrons, ~4k Chaos, and ~3k of Tyranids.
As MvS said, Lorgar was obsessed with finding the truth about life and existence, and followed that as he saw it as the 'right' thing to do. And can you blame him for that? Methods wise, sure, but beliefs? No. We all at one point in our life wonder what the meaning of our lives and, to an extent, humanity's existence is about. Lorgar was focused on that his whole life because he didn't believe in his own, or humanity's, inner strength to live and prosper without relying on something more than human.
The Emperor never explained to Lorgar the reasons why all this religious stuff was a bad idea on Monarchia, or beforehand. If he did, Lorgar wouldn't have been so surprised about the Chaos Gods. As MvS puts it, the Emperor in a nutshell came down out of the blue, forcibly made 100,000 Space Marines and their Primarch kneel in the grave dust of Monarchia, told them that everything that they had achieved, all the lives lost and blood shed, was worthless, and that they had failed these last 150 years. And now they have to listen to him, because he's the Emperor and that's all you need to know. And by the way, here's Guiliman to show you how a Legion should be run.
Doesn't matter what Primarch took that, they'd have been quite traumatised.
He went deeper into his ways because after that episode his belief structure that he had been allowed to proselytize for so long was crushed. He was after the Truth and if the Emperor wasn't it, there must have been something else that represented the truth. Unfortunately he trusted people too easily and expected the good out of everyone too much, and Erebus/Kor Phaeron leapt. I can fully understand why he went on his little Pilgrimage to find some sort of inner peace.
Lorgar had plenty of exposure to his brothers. All of them barring Horus and Magnus couldn't stand him, as they saw him as the runt of the litter. Whilst they were off happily smashing things, he wanted peace and only reluctantly attacked a world. And just like Guiliman he built those worlds back up, just in the wrong direction.
He didn't grow up in the right direction. Apart from wildly tormented by nose bleed inducing nightmares and prophecies, Lorgar was central to a planet wide spanning cult that portrayed him as a demi god and then was thrust into exterminating half of Colchis' population for a religious war of 'freedom', no doubt orchestrated by Kor Phaeron. He was manipulated from the start, and his inherently kind (though obviously misguided) soul trusted people and their intentions too much, for him and others.
Believing that Humanity needed guidance from supernatural beings isn't new or repugnant. It's been the central tenet of humanity for hundreds of years.
Reason not to hate Mat Ward #62: Mat Ward used the well designed spine of the Grey Knights Codex to 'Ward' off chavs who were harassing a group of nuns]
I too would like to see the new Iron Hands Legion Master or Council dominate Kaesoron. I'd like to see the Iron Hands go through a period of disunity and fractured organisation before coming back together during the Heresy and kicking butt.I cannot wait for the (hopefully there will be one
Sqallum
Reason not to hate Mat Ward #62: Mat Ward used the well designed spine of the Grey Knights Codex to 'Ward' off chavs who were harassing a group of nuns]
Legion: Iron Warrior - why you ask? Because if you can't tear down a fortress using manpower then the next logical solution is to use massive guns right?
Primarch: Angron - why? The dude is a rage fueled bezerker that is a total badass, whats not to like?
Acta Non Verba
"I have seen worlds burn and crushed nations underfoot, torn down the idols of false gods and slaughtered kings like cattle. Presume not to order me tiny man, for I am war, and you are no more than chaff before the scythe..."
I get your meaning but describing him as a petulant child paints a petty image for something as grand and incredible as a demigod Primarch and his Astartes Legion is supposed to be. None of the Primarchs were simply stupid, silly or petulant. They were super-beings made to be more intelligent and with better senses than any normal mortal. It's just that when they made mistakes their mistakes were on the same scale as their intellect and power – vast.
Really? Throughout the months-long celebrations when the Emperor and Magnus came to Colchis and claim Lorgar, the Emperor didn't say at any point "don't worship me". We're told the delays to the Great Crusade chafed with the Emperor, but he didn't take Lorgar aside and tell him to stop his religious devotion. Also throughout the Crusade all Lorgar's victories were absolute. The populations of his planets were left absolutely loyal to the Emperor in a way that many other planets conquered by other Primarchs were not. There was no dissent on Lorgar's worlds and everyone joined in the absolute faith in the inherent 'good' of the Imperium and its master, so there was little to suggest that Lorgar had ‘failed’ except in terms of what the Emperor thought was the ‘correct’ ideology.Lorgar was warned, many times, not to worship the Emperor as a god
That's the whole point, else Lorgar's reaction and the reaction of his Legion wouldn't have been such a numbing and horrific surprise.
Indeed, which was Lorgar's failing. Then again, the Emperor *was* denying his own divinity, and indeed he was 'divine' in most of the senses meant in 40K, with its Avatars and daemons and suchlike. It’s just that the Emperor just didn't want worship for various reasons.He willfully chose to ignore it and believe that the big E was just denying his own divinity.
Because the explanation wasn't given in that way.The emperor had good reason to stop worship with the imperial truth as well, denying the chaos gods strength, and again Lorgar willfully chose to ignore this decree.
Chaos was never mentioned and 'gods' weren't mentioned. The decree was made that all religions and theistic/ spiritual beliefs had to be destroyed for the 'betterment' of humanity and that was that. Obedience was mandatory and although some Primarchs allowed for a degree of discussion and dissent initially on 'Compliant' planets, all such dissent was expected to vanish before too long, or else.
I doubt many people with strong characters would learn from that event necessarily. It wasn't just a lesson, it was the annihilation of a loyal civilisation full millions/billions of completely innocent people, along with the complete psychically imposed physical abuse of an entire Legion. You don't create demigods with political and idealistic minds and then expect them to humbly accept such intense humiliation and abuse without any prior discussion or warning. Or at least you shouldn't.When the Ultramarines enacted the lesson Lorgar didn't learn from it, no, he went deeper into his ways.
Like I suggested in my previous post with the unfair boss or aggressive father to a gay man, ritual humiliation and violence on a grand scale, without prior warning or discussion, isn't a way to ensure understanding of the criticism let alone compliance with a 'lesson'.
True. Although that is an in-narrative perception of one Primarch. Lorgar has his own opinions of Guilliman too. We can gain some character insight from all in-narrative opinions, but one isn’t necessarily more objective than another.As Guiliman says in Know no Fear he is incapable of seeing the middle, it is always one extreme or the other.
Also, people who see the world in black and white can indeed cause terrible harm. They can also create incredible good. People who see the world in shades of grey aren't likely to cause the same amount of harm if things go wrong, but then neither are they likely to aspire to the incredible heights of beneficence either. So yes that was Lorgar's limitation, just as Guilliman's shades of grey approach that allowed his seemingly blind obedience to his master was his. Neither is perfect, but the problems caused by the black and white personality are more likely to be acute than the shades of grey character.
Especially when they're Primarchs.
I don't think so. Worship is a symptom not a cause. The cause is his need to find ‘Truth’ and ‘Purpose’.His need to worship is an example of this.
Anyway, the worship was just a variation on what the Emperor expected - absolute obedience and respect for everything he decrees, no matter how much it may harm your culture or how much you may disagree with it. The difference being that those who worshiped the Emperor saw his decrees as serving some sort of divine purpose that others couldn't grasp, while those who didn't worship the Emperor (seeing him instead as just some 'great man') always have room to protest and disagree with him, something that the Emperor didn't really allow. So from that perspective the Emperor wanted all the authority and obedience as god of a religion, but without actually being called one or praised as one. Which was a large part of the problem. He wasn’t clear.
It's a mistake to compare the experiences of the Primarchs too much. It's true that Angron was tortured physically by having implants put into his brain to heighten his aggressiveness and inflict pain on him when he disobeyed.Lorgar is not some tortured soul either like Konrad Kruze or Angron.
Curze... well Curze chose to stay outside of the society he found himself within. All other Primarchs either went to the people of their planets or were found by the people of their planets. Curze didn't. He chose to live amongst them in their cities but stay 'wild'. His torment is as much a product of what he was made to be as it is his upbringing - more so in fact, because plenty other Primarchs lived in terrible situations of violence and misery but still didn't isolate themselves into psychotic Punisher/Batman supermen.
I would say that Lorgar was indeed a tortured soul though. Firstly, as we're told, he had violent and incredibly painful nightmares his whole life due to his latent psychic ability (I can't imagine what it would be like to never, ever sleep well and always have vivid, partly prophetic dreams that left me in fits, haemorrhaging blood from my nose). Also, he had prophetic visions of a Great Uniter who would come and save the people of Colchis - a true vision of the Emperor - and this true vision caused a war that Lorgar didn't want and felt guilty for. But it was nothing less than what the other Primarchs ended up doing on their own worlds: fighting against regimes that were either suppressive or just unacceptable to the Imperium. The difference being that Lorgar had a conscience even about the enemies he was killing, where most other Primarchs didn't really care about their enemies because they were "in the wrong".
No more than Horus, Fulgrim, Perturabo, Magnus, Mortarion and so on. All of their reasons for falling to Chaos are flawed, but none of them are entirely 'wrong' either. The Imperial system was flawed and their father kept terrible secrets from everyone and didn't trust his sons enough to explain the truth.He had plenty of exposure to his father and his brothers.
I don't see it. He stands up for what he believes in "though the heavens fall" and all that. In Aurelian he even gives up his chance to become seen as one of the greatest warriors and generals of the Primarchs in order to serve what saw as the 'greater good' of his mission to depose the Emperor and prepare humanity to survive the reality of Chaos.Ultimately, Lorgar is the epitome of weakness.
He was told outright that if he faced Guilliman one to one he would kill his brother and be hailed, finally, as one of the greatest Primarchs by Horus, Angron and all the others, but the wider mission would fail. If he took on the wider mission and didn’t confront Guilliman one-on-one he would never be seen as an equal by his brothers, but he would achieve more for humanity and the purposes of the Gods.
The choice was his alone to make and there was no pressure on him one way or another. He chose what he saw as the more altruistic route and THAT takes character.
Only up to a point. If you read The First Heretic, Aurelian and even Know No Fear (which you reference in your post), you'd see all the many references to him smacking down Phaeron (even throttling him) and how he had grown beyond any of his advisors in power and independence, and how his mission was very much his own.He is always willing to allow others to guide him (kor phaedon, erebus, the chaos gods) and never stands on his own
Yes he takes sides, listens to subordinates and is even manipulated by Gods (who are, after all, GODS, so are pretty good at manipulating mortals - you don't have to be stupid or gullible to fall before a god's will, you just have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time), but this is no different from the other Primarchs who fall to Chaos or who choose to obey the Emperor even in the most heinous acts, just because they've decided to accept that the Emperor is always right.
Like any Primarch. He sacrifices people in order to achieve the mission or the greatest good as he sees it. All Primarchs are like this in their different ways. As is the Emperor.he has no problem sacrificing others
Lorgar also takes risks like a hero. He faces Corax when he *knows* he can't win and in the face of Kor Phaeron's screamed advice/order not to, all because Corax is killing Lorgar's genesons. He walks into the Eye of Terror and battles a Bloodthirster and wrangles with a Changer of Ways.
Really? He recognises humanity always looks for meaning and purpose, and always tries to have hope in the face of cruel facts. He recognises that humanity prizes abstracts like ‘virtue’, ‘truth’, ‘love’ and ‘justice’ above factual certainties that challenge, and sometimes even negate, the 'reality' of these notions.and of course never accepts humanity for what it is
Lorgar is painted as being flawed, certainly, but his flaws are just the other side of the coin to the flaws of the more cynical and/or mechanistic Primarchs.
Ah, I see where you're coming from now. Here's another perspective for you: humanity does need faith to survive, or at least to stay sane. It's a mistake to conflate 'faith' with solely religious faith, or to suggest that the actual drive and feeling of faith is somehow unique to theism or is something entirely different when experienced in other context. Most importantly, it's a mistake to characterise all religious, spiritual and theistic faith as being about waiting for Buddy Jesus to appear to take all the good little children into space to see Divine Daddy, or as a reason to fly passenger jets into tall buildings. There are almost as many different experiences, approaches and conceptualisations to 'faith' as there are people.This last part is his greatest crime in that he believes humanity must have faith to survive
Most of us hope, believe, have faith, that the formative norms of our civilisation are 'true' in some important way and have meaning beyond the mere fact that someone somewhere says that they do.
We all want to believe in human rights - that we have basic rights even in the absence of laws saying we do and police/courts to enforce those laws, when there's actually little empirical evidence to suggest this.
We tend to want to believe that our loves and despairs mean something beyond chemical reactions that are by-products of genes self-programmed to propagate themselves and which can be changed with a pill given enough medical advancement.
We all tend to hope that there is some sort of 'Truth' in a species full of relative and subjective values and a cold universe devoid of purpose and meaning beyond the fact that it just exists.
We mostly like to believe that our lives and opinions mean something or are 'worth' something, even when 'meaning' and 'worth' are not 'facts' that can be objectively proven through the scientific method.
This doesn't mean we all believe in a divinity, but it does mean that we all tend to fundamentally hope that our normative values are something more important and more real than just subjective dreams that some people have chosen to agree on, while others, with equal validity, haven't.
But this is the whole point of the Imperium and Imperial Truth. If you disobeyed the Emperor or sought to resist his conquest of your civilisation and complete remoulding of your norms and beliefs (political, religious, philosophical), you were crushed.it must have guidance from beings greater than humanity.
No, he didn't. He chose to appear as a glowing demigod, even if he never used that term to describe himself. He insisted on being called The Emperor, not a name. A title. He even allowed the Mechanicum to regard him as their messianic, godlike Omnissiah. In fact he seems to have engineered this belief. The Emperor has values and beliefs that are important to him, but they are all predicated upon the success of his self-created mission, not on some ideal opinion about the supposed 'truth' of one subjective philosophy over another.The emperor may be the patron of humanity but is ultimately human and has always expressed himself as such.
Not quite. The Emperor wanted to keep humanity safe from Chaos (with its gods and daemons) while humanity slowly evolved into a psychic species. He knew that humanity couldn't survive on its own two feet in a universe of gods, daemons, aliens and unbounded emotions, because he'd tried to enable this very thing for so many millennia, only for the Age of Strife to emerge and the near destruction of humanity.The emperor knew that humanity must be able to stand on its own inner-strength to survive in the universe
He took the mantle of 'Emperor' (not 'advisor', 'manager', 'life-coach' or even 'president') and he conquered Terra and every other human world because he felt he needed to control humanity in order to protect it. He presided of the genocide of countless human societies, just for resisting him and his vision. It seems to me that the only reason he didn't call himself 'God' instead of 'Emperor' was because of his very genuine concerns about empowering the Gods in the warp - the beings that hear prayers, bestow blessings, seek souls and all the other things that gods are traditionally supposed to want and do.
It's just as easy, and just as correct, to say that Lorgar, first amongst all the Primarchs, saw the inconsistencies in the demands and dreams of the Emperor: the being who was and wasn't a god; who sought to emancipate humanity while also crushing humanity; who encouraged freedom of thought alongside absolute obedience to his doctrine; who demanded no-one view him as a god even while he acted like any god from human mythology; who denied the existence of souls, gods, daemons, angels, heaven, hell, even while knowing all these things and more existed.and Lorgar, among even all other Primarchs, refuses to accept this truth
Lorgar's problem was that he didn't have ENOUGH faith in the Emperor, not that he had too much. Had he firmly believed that the Emperor was right irrespectively of what he did, said, ordered and how he appeared, then the Heresy might never have happened. As it was Lorgar couldn't balance in his mind the benevolent and beneficent god he preached about with the reality of being he was finally forced to confront.
Then he is shown the Divine and the Afterlife by actual angels/demons and he is told that in order for humanity to survive and advance it has to embrace the horror and learn to work with it, well, although tragic, this isn't massively different from what he believed and had to do for the Emperor. Enforce the horror in the short term in order to emancipate the species in the long term. Once the horror becomes normalised it won't be considered 'horror' any more. And so it goes...
That's your perception, opinion and choice of course and there's no absolute right and wrong in matters of 'taste' and 'value' (the positivist’s pointThat is why Lorgar is not tragic, but simply evil and in no way sympathetic in my mind.). However I'd suggest that the Horus Heresy stories are much more interesting and enjoyable if we look for the strengths and sympathetic points of all the characters, along with their weaknesses and flaws (as indeed the authors are trying so hard so depict) rather than make an almost religious-sounding comment about objective 'evil'.
It's one thing not to like the characterisations of any of the Primarchs, it's another thing altogether to not even attempt to see the depth and colour that the authors have gone to some length to try give them beyond our own opinions of 'Absolute Goodies vs. Absolute Baddies'.
Although obviously that's just my take on things.
Last edited by MvS; 25-04-2012 at 21:02. Reason: typos
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MvS: I still favour the metaphysical angle to Lorgar - him having insight rather than mere, baseless, faith & conjecture. But something more solid about the nature of faith; I think that'd have been a very neat way for him to go, hence your description of his trajectory is still one I find very compelling. ADB managed an excellent tale out of it going his own way, but a big part of me still half-longs for the ... other version of events.
Not so! Promethean Sun takes some pains to paint Vulkan in a similar 'essential' position to Lorgar - having absolutely no interest in being someone else's general in a galactic war. He, unlike Lorgar, however, takes on the burden of becoming said general and simply... knuckles down. Suffers it. It's interesting to speculate that perhaps Lorgar tried doing that, early on, or that perhaps Vulkan might have wavered, given more time.
Myself, Vulkan always fascinates me. I've some pleasant thoughts on Mortarion too.
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I suppose I should point out that I’m simply arguing that I don’t find Lorgar to be sympathetic and I found him to be pure evil from the start. Let me try to clarify.
Ignoring any real life religion/spiritual/existential debate, I find that Lorgar’s search for faith and purpose in this singular example is repugnant and evil. Lorgar is a primarch and consequently, of all the beings in the galaxy, his purpose should be clearer than any other; that is to serve the emperor as he reunites mankind. That’s it, pretty clear as day. He knows full well the imperial truth and the emperor’s own stand on religion but at all times ignores it. He ignores it as he is remanded for turning every world he conquers into a shrine world, he ignores it after being rebuked for such beliefs by his brothers, and he ignores it further after the ultramarines destroy one of his worlds. Heck, he goes deeper into his beliefs.
Lorgar, as a Primarch, and as MvS correctly states, is no idiot. He is superior in every way intellectually so I find it impossible to believe that he simply didn’t realize what he was doing was wrong after so many warnings or in even basic observance of circumstances. The fact of the matter is Lorgar never sought the truth then, but only the truth that supported his eventually rebuked beliefs. Compared to any other primarch’s fall from grace there is no similarity. That is, Lorgar was hell bent on proving his beliefs true from the beginning of his existence, even with plenty of opportunities to change, that he never had a tragic flaw, but was simply evil.
In other words look at Horus. Ambition was his greatest strength as well as his greatest weakness (as the story ultimately shows). However, he started off noble with his ambition being used for good and only later was it corrupted. Lorgar on the other hand, in my opinion, never started out with good intentions. The whole idea of him trying to “enlighten” humanity, solely in the context of 40k, was evil from the get go. Enlightenment for Lorgar was subjugation to a belief that the emperor had explicitly banned and then, when rebuked, took his wrath out on those same people. In either case he was ill-intentioned.
Believe me, I’m waiting for an author to explain why the big E never had a “stranger danger” talk with his demi-god creations and explain that voices that talk in your head are evil and shouldn’t be listened to; but such an explanation doesn’t exist as of yet. As such we can only assume that Lorgar must have known full well what he was doing was in defiance of his very purpose, which as I said above, he also knows full well. If then there was never a good man to start with, then he was evil all along. That, solely in my opinion, is why Lorgar is in no way sympathetic and why I find him to be the most vile of any of the primarchs.
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General of: ~3k Necrons, ~4k Chaos, and ~3k of Tyranids.
I very much agree, although the faith and conjecture in Lorgar's case would have been based on the metaphysical insight I think. He built a whole philosophy and theology upon his insights and some of that would have been conjecture and some would have required a lot of faith to swallow.
Good point, although Lorgar does the same thing, he just doesn't have the victory tally of his brothers - at least before his 'rebuke', after which he becomes a conquest machine. I know what you mean about Vulkan though. I think the big difference between him and Lorgar is that Lorgar felt that he had a wider mission - to find 'Truth' in order to emancipate humanity, while Vulkan wasn't all that interested in such abstracts. He was more interested in helping people at ground level and in tangible and measurable terms. He strikes me as more of a consummate humanitarian while Lorgar seems more of an idealistic philosopher.Promethean Sun takes some pains to paint Vulkan in a similar 'essential' position to Lorgar - having absolutely no interest in being someone else's general in a galactic war. He, unlike Lorgar, however, takes on the burden of becoming said general and simply... knuckles down.
I think that was clear.
Which of course he did do. He created prosperous and completely loyal worlds and civilisations.Lorgar is a primarch and consequently, of all the beings in the galaxy, his purpose should be clearer than any other; that is to serve the emperor as he reunites mankind.
He also remembers how the Emperor didn't seem to have a problem with his beliefs when they met, and, presumably, when he was on Terra with his father. Anyway, if "I was only obeying orders" isn't a moral defence for normal humans who are ordered to do terrible and inhuman things, it goes doubly so for Primarchs who have the perspective to know better. Lorgar needed to know whether by obeying his father he was in fact doing a greater wrong.He knows full well the imperial truth and the emperor’s own stand on religion but at all times ignores it.
Shrine Worlds are a creation of the Imperium as we know it in modern 40K, not something that appeared anywhere during the Crusade. Shrine Worlds are worlds set over to be massive Churches - planet-sized shrines to the Emperor run at every level by priests and clerics and owned by the Ecclesiarchy.He ignores it as he is remanded for turning every world he conquers into a shrine world
Monarchia, and we can suppose Lorgar's other conquests, weren't like this. They were normal planets that were prosperous, had industries and normal civilians, but they were united by a common religion based around faith in the Emperor as a god and, hence, the inherent rightness of his Imperium.
Primarchs rebuking each other is hardly the measure of right and wrong in the setting. They're always wrangling with each other and having differences of opinion. I doubt Curze or Angron cared much about the opinions of their brother Primarchs, so why would Lorgar who was essentially ignored by his brothers in the first place?he ignores it after being rebuked for such beliefs by his brothers,
At least we can say that Lorgar wasn't a mass-murdering homicidal maniac and terrorist like Curze. Even the Curze had some sympathetic reasons for his many evils.
Ignores it?? No, he reacts very strongly to the absolute callousness and injustice of it.he ignores it further after the ultramarines destroy one of his worlds.
In fact he loses his belief. When it's pointed out to him that so many of the world he has conquered in the name of the Emperor had the same indigenous beliefs - the very beliefs that he was responsible for destroying on Colchis - even though all these planets didn't have contact with each other, he decides he needs to find out why that is. He needs to know what connects them all and whether he has being involved in an injustice himself - whether he has been doing to other innocent civilisations what Guilliman and the Emperor did to Monarchia. He needs to know whether he has been responsible for an abomination. He wants to know whether he's been duped.he goes deeper into his beliefs.
The whole point of the Heresy series is to show that the 'right' and the 'wrong' wasn't at all clear to start with, even if the end results of turning to Chaos are clear with hindsight. This is in line with the original Chaos imagery - that its greatest temptation is in the freedom and perspective it offers, not just as a Doctor Evil / Hulk Smash combo.Lorgar, as a Primarch, and as MvS correctly states, is no idiot. He is superior in every way intellectually so I find it impossible to believe that he simply didn’t realize what he was doing was wrong after so many warnings or in even basic observance of circumstances.
The point is supposed to be that in the 40K setting, terrible things can be done by good people and that good things can be done by terrible people, and, most importantly, that 'good' and 'bad' are not always so easily compartmentalised when survival is at stake.
No, he found The Truth, or at least a large part of it. The point being that how we approach 'truth' and what we do with it once we've found it isn't always for the good. Knowing the truth isn't always for the best. Some things are too dangerous to know, at least in 40K.The fact of the matter is Lorgar never sought the truth then, but only the truth that supported his eventually rebuked beliefs.
Lorgar found out that all the religions he destroyed for the Emperor were true. There really were gods and daemons and souls. Immortality really could be achieved. The Emperor really was a deity of sorts, but not the only one and perhaps not the most powerful one. He found out that the Emperor had lied but because of his treatment at the Emperor's hands he didn't trust the Emperor's reasons any more.
He didn't want to believe that the Old Faith of Colchis was true. He didn't want that sort of cruelty and bone-rattling mysticism to be real. He didn't want to know that Chaos would consume humanity, just as it did the Eldar, unless something pretty drastic happened to prevent it. His only problem was that because he wasn't given any perspective by the Emperor or Magnus, he didn't know whether there was another way for humanity to survive than the reality Ingethel revealed to him. Had the Emperor let Lorgar in on his reasons for suppressing the old faiths of humanity and told him his plans to save humanity from Chaos rather than having to embrace Chaos in order to survive, perhaps things would have been very different.
But the Emperor didn't. He decided some things were too dangerous to know, and in a certain respect he was right. Partially. Because a little knowledge of Chaos amongst Primarchs turned out to be worse than no knowledge at all or complete knowledge of it.
That's not what I get at all from his story and how it's been presented. It completely overlooks how his character is presented, his torment over the choices he's faced with. His humanity. His doubt. In fact most of his doubts are echoed by the other Traitor Primarchs. They all rebelled for deeply held reasons too, and Lorgar is certainly no more two-dimensional or evil than any of them.Compared to any other primarch’s fall from grace there is no similarity. That is, Lorgar was hell bent on proving his beliefs true from the beginning of his existence, even with plenty of opportunities to change, that he never had a tragic flaw, but was simply evil.
It's like we're reading completely different stories!Lorgar on the other hand, in my opinion, never started out with good intentions. The whole idea of him trying to “enlighten” humanity, solely in the context of 40k, was evil from the get go. Enlightenment for Lorgar was subjugation to a belief that the emperor had explicitly banned and then, when rebuked, took his wrath out on those same people.
The whole point of EVERY Primarch was to subjugate humanity to the will of the Emperor and crush all resistence.
Lorgar justified this by believing that the Emperor was a deity - a belief that he had good reasons to hold, both because of the Emperor's fundamental nature and because of his behaviour. The humans of his planets were happy and loyal. They were free to live and love and develop, providing they were obedient to the Emperor (as all Compliant planets had to be), allowed settling and exploitation from the wider Imperium (as all Compliant planets had to), with the only difference being that they believed that the Emperor had a right to be as ruthless as he was because he was humanity's deity and had a Master Plan for the protection and salvation of all (something that other Compliant planets didn't have to believe, to mixed results of compliance).
Lorgar's beliefs after his Pilgrimage were similar to Magnus', although where Magnus believed (wrongly) that Chaos could be subjugated through practice, Lorgar believed it had to be embraced, appeased and even made into an ally in order to escape destruction (largely wrongly - although to be fair the possibility for immortality through Chaos is very real, he just didn't know it was also real through other means too). In this respect the difference between Lorgar and Magnus is similar to radical and Puritan Inquisitors, with one believing you can harness Chaos ‘scientifically’ for the good of humanity while the other believes that faith in the Emperor is enough to drive back Chaos. The only problem is that Lorgar had his faith in the Emperor destroyed, but his approach to controlling Chaos was faith based. Faith does sculpt the warp and create ‘miracles’.
Also, Lorgar not starting out with good intentions doesn't really fit with what is stated about him objectively through the books that deal with him. The point isn't that he was 'bad' and had evil intentions for humanity. The point of the story is that the road to Hell is often paved with good intentions. That's the tragedy of the whole 40K setting. It applies equally to the Emperor, the Primarchs, the Cabal and pretty much every other major player in the Heresy.
Again, 'good' people can do bad things while trying to do good, and 'bad' people can do good things while trying to do bad. There are many other combinations.
Although I suppose if you think that Lorgar = Theistic / Spiritual World View = Irredeemably Bad Nutter Regardless Of What He Goes Through, then it’s a pretty closed circuit.
Okay. Having Lorgar or any other Primarch as wilfully 'evil' and 'vile' just because he is (bwa, ha, haaa!!) seems a bit boring to me. It lacks any sense of tragedy and makes the characters involved two-dimensional and a bit stupid too. It also doesn't seem to tally with the actual descriptions of what the Primarchs feel and think while doing what they do in the stories. But there we go.That, solely in my opinion, is why Lorgar is in no way sympathetic and why I find him to be the most vile of any of the primarchs.
Your Mileage May Vary.
Last edited by MvS; 02-05-2012 at 11:28. Reason: grammar & logic
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Unfortunately, I think this is where we'll have to say we agree to disagree. From the books I do find Lorgar two dimensional in that his actions seem to only speak as such, nor do I find him tragic in anyway but simply an evil being. I appreciate your spirited defense of a deeper character, truly I do, but I simply don't see it. The character I believe that is being portrayed, in my opinion, is one who refuses to accept reality, and does so for his own selfish, and ultimately weak, reasons.Okay. Having Lorgar or any other Primarch as wilfully 'evil' and 'vile' just because he is (bwa, ha, haaa!!) seems a bit boring to me. It lacks any sense of tragedy and makes the characters involved two-dimensional and a bit stupid too. It also doesn't seem to tally with the actual descriptions of what the Primarchs feel and think while doing what they do in the stories. But there we go.
Your Mileage May Vary.
The fact I keep coming back to is that Lorgar was the first primarch to turn his back on the emperor, and did so happily. He did this almost half a century before Horus even. From the info we have this screams at someone who had ill-intentions all along; for Lorgar certainly had plenty of opportunities to change his mind. His need for "faith" and "enlightenment" (again, solely in the 30k context) is a hubris that existed from his birth it seems, and not some flaw that came along later. This hubris, said mentioned "faith" and "enlightenment" (again solely in the 30k context), is by its very nature is evil. In other words, as a literary character he was not brought down by his hubris but embraced it for all its' evil value making him a character that is consequently unrelatable. This is, unlike say horus, angron, or magnus, who had good qualities and intentions to begin with that were corrupted later on or were tricked. Lorgar stands alone in my view as the one primarch who did not have a descent into evil, but was so all along.
Last edited by Buddha777; 25-04-2012 at 18:22.
"But I being poor have only my dreams. Tread softly, for you tread on my dreams." ~ Yeats
General of: ~3k Necrons, ~4k Chaos, and ~3k of Tyranids.
Fair enough. Two people can see different a pattern in the same cloud, although I would have enjoyed the discussion even more if you'd addressed the points I raised in defence of my position. But perhaps that wouldn't be appropriate on this thread.
I suppose we could start a separate thread to discuss these points if you're interested...?
Not happily. Even Guilliman picks up on that in Know No Fear.The fact I keep coming back to is that Lorgar was the first primarch to turn his back on the emperor, and did so happily
The fact that we're actually told through The First Heretic and Aurelian that this isn't the case, and that his distress could even be picked up on by Guilliman while Guilliman was in a mood to kill Lorgar say differently to me.He did this almost half a century before Horus even. From the info we have this screams at someone who had ill-intentions all along
Well again, I disagree. Like all Primarchs he was also sculpted by his environment, in his case the highly religious and Chaos worshiping world of Colchis. Chaos worshiping until Lorgar saved them, that is.his need for "faith" and "enlightenment" (again, solely in the 30k context) is a hubris that existed from his birth it seems, and not some flaw that came along later. This hubris, said mentioned "faith" and "enlightenment" (again solely in the 30k context), is by its very nature is evil.
Also, enlightenment and faith are what Imperial Truth sought to create. Lorgar wished the same.
Enlightemnent in the sense of Imperial Truth was predicated upon absolute submission to the rule of the Emperor and his edicts. Why? Just because he said he was right and could use his psychic powers to convince you. Believing the Emperor would save humanity despite his imperialism and genocide required an act of faith from even the most secular atheist of the conquered territories. Lorgar just took this more literally.
Faith in the secular Imperial Truth was about complete and willing acceptance of the doctrine itself and obedience to the Imperium and of the perfection of the Emperor. Faith in Lorgar's vision was similar, but gave an answer to the question "why should we?", beyond "because we'll kill you if you don't." He believed it was because the Emperor was the protector god of humanity - something he believed because of the beauty of the Emperor's idea of unity, because of the Emperor's godlike powers and appearance, and because of his own prophetic visions involving the Emperor. All of which were hard for him to ignore.
Wow, okay. That doesn't seem to have been the intention of the writers at all to me. Not even in the much less three-dimensional Index Astartes article.as a literary character he was not brought down by his hubris but embraced it for all its' evil value making him a character that is consequently unrelatable.
Personally I find Curze harder to relate to. I mean I get him and think he's unutterably cool, but he was a torturing, murdering, nihilistic bastard.
Ah well, I don't know how you get that from reading the First Heretic, but then I guess that if you feel you can't relate to the character, you won't. I'm very pleased with how he's been depicted: deeply flawed and highly sensitive, but also idealistic, passionate, altruistic and tragically misguided. A lost prophet. A monk, philosopher and dreamer in a demigod warlord's body.This is, unlike say horus, angron, or magnus, who had good qualities and intentions to begin with that were corrupted later on or were tricked. Lorgar stands alone in my view as the one primarch who did not have a descent into evil, but was so all along.
Like several other Primarchs, he almost seems to be on the Autistic Spectrum in many ways.
All that aside then, which Primarch do you relate to and think the 'coolest' or most interesting etc? I think we've probably dredged over Lorgar enough in this thread...
Last edited by MvS; 26-04-2012 at 11:19. Reason: grammar
Complete Rules for the Chaos Legions make a return at last!
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Favorite Legion : Night Lords
I really have enjoyed the novels by ABD and his insight into the legions workings. In the Chaos armies I have built over the years I play from a comparable viewpoint. That my legion is lost and damned, not turned to the chaos gods as much as looking to tear the imperium down.
Favorite Primarch : Logar, after he gets rebuked he really pulls up his pants and gets the job done. I think he would be one of the more charismatic ones.. capable of having a conversation without twisting your head off.
Legion - Dark Angels - The short story 'Deathwing' got me hooked on them and 40K when I was a kid - I still have my 'Cloud Runner' I painted 20 years ago!
Primarch - Magnus because his is such a tragic story, but baring in mind the HH series is spreading more light/shadow on the primarchs he's closely followed (ironically) by Russ due to his controlled aggressive intellectual barbarism and loyalty to the big E. But (again somewhat ironically) as a wannabe warrior monk I'm hoping the upcoming HH book The Primarchs shunts The Lion to the top of my list
DjtHeutii; If he is not pointing, how will people know that he is in charge?
Godzooky; I think all UM flyers should be covered by a new special rule called: Whooshing machines live longer with Calgar...
Rabid Bunny 666; Heh, I can picture Russ waking up in a Space Hulk with about forty drunken Genestealers, three suits of Thousand Sons armour and a very confused ork.
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