Spacewolves Leman Russ. Because they have the coolest looking minis & ................... just because I love the space viking fluff.
Spacewolves Leman Russ. Because they have the coolest looking minis & ................... just because I love the space viking fluff.
It's not that the Emprah had that planned for him as much as Kurze did everything possible to insure Big E could do nothing else but.Originally Posted by SunTzu
"WE ARE THE ONLY SOURCE OF GOODNESS, SEVERE AND DRASTIC. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE OF HOPE THAN US. WE ARE AGONISINGLY ALONE."
beer and axes
There's little question that the Night Lords are my favorite legion, thus making Kurze my favorite primarch. Though AD-B's Night Lords trilogy certainly helped, they've always been my silent favorite throughout my entire time playing CSM, to the point where I was seriously considering abandoning the use of 3.5 Daemonettes to run the guys with the cool paint jobs. Night Lords have always looked really evocative. Dark blue, blood red, and metallic gold give their armor a touch of all three primary pigments, and the lightning bolts just finish it all off to perfection. No other legion looks so whole on the color wheel. Now that I'm older, wiser, and have the artistic skill to replicate it in my own way, I find it the most personally rewarding army paint scheme in all of GW. Beyond simple cosmetics, their legion tactics are probably the most sensible given an elite fighting force: use high speed to apply heavy pressure in unfair fights for optimum victory in critical areas; let some more numerous / durable / expendable auxiliaries handle the blunt force operations.
As I get to know the legion more, particularly through the Talos trilogy, I can find myself relating to and even sympathizing with the cause of their legion. Kurze and his legion took to the Great Crusade in the most efficient and effective manner possible, using simple fear to ensure the loyalty of entire systems without having to annihilate them from orbit like any other legion (sans Salamanders, maybe) might. Though they brutally maul and murder many, their legend of fear allows them to spare billions upon billions of wayward Imperial citizenry from such a fate. They are the warriors the Emperor asked for. (I think back to the Ultramarines movie, where the captain had to teach his initiates to be merciless and without pity because their foes have no honor. Show me one Night Lord who needs to be taught to be merciless and without pity...) The problem is that they took to the whole Great Crusade and immediately saw its logical conclusion. When the Emperor calls them out for their atrocities, what can they say? They're doing exactly what they were made for, and they're doing a pretty good job. Not their fault the Big E sent them out on a genocidal campaign without realizing the ramifications of what he was really asking for. Kurze even let himself get assassinated (which at first I thought was a really sissy way to die, especially for a primarch) to prove a point: the Great Crusade was waged in fealty to a hypocrite. As "heretics", and dwindling ones at that, they live and die to show the entire Imperium the folly of their totalitarian ways. As expected from a literary and poetic society like the Nostromans, the Night Lords are purposefully demonstrating their most monstrous tendencies as a parody of the Inquisitiorial dictatorship the Imperium finds itself in, only the irony of it all is lost on the ignorant Imperial sheeple. This is why it makes sense for a legionary as violent and ruthless as Talos to take care of his slaves and his squad: somebody has to carry on the legion's message, or his life will have meant nothing.
I never got the whole "Batman" analogy people keep throwing around with Night Lords. This is probably in part to why I don't like Batman, that when I hear it I immediately think of somebody who solves all their problems by flaunting their absurd wealth, as if they had any problems to begin with while living in the lap of luxury their whole lives. Kurze earned everything that came to him. Everything.
Another strong contender for my favorite legion is, of all legions, the Ultramarines. Before their wardification, and even poster-boy status aside (which I maintain should've been given to the Imperial Fists; they fought alongside the Emperor, they held the walls during the Heresy, their armor could be retconned to gold with a flick of a BL author's wrist, and their founding world is Terra), the Ultramarines had this knack for taking on and hunting xenos. Part of it is being based on the Eastern Fringe. The whole of the Tau Empire live here. The local Biel-Tan like skulking around all the maiden and exodite worlds in the area. The Tyranids have specifically targeted the Eastern Fringe at least a couple of times now. And, like every other place in the galaxy, the Orks are here in force. Amidst all the exotic aliens, the Ultramarines just come off as having this "stick up for the human" vibe. Let the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights muck around with the servants of chaos. On the other end of the galaxy, Ultramarines fight for simple human survival.
Ultramarine "superior" tactics also make the most sense, not because Guilliman is some kind of tactical genius, but because most of their modern foes are crazed Ork lunatics who make the Ultramarines look like tactical geniuses by comparison. And even if they did have brilliant tactics at a time, just imagine how much of that tactical acumen is left. When the Tyranids showed up, proving themselves a race more than capable of tactical thought, the Ultramarines lost (amongst other divisions) their whole 1st Company, their best, brightest, and toughest, on a turf where they had every conceivable logistical advantage by the throat. One battle. All of it. Gone. Imagine all the geneseed they couldn't recover due to exposure, digestion or irrevocable bodily havoc. Don't tell me this level of loss won't leave a lasting mark on a chapter. They can restock their mooks all they want, but what could possibly replace all that culture, heritage, and first-hand experience? All that's left of 1st Company's legacy are dusty manuscripts, flawed history, hollow dogma, and a frozen primarch. What's to say that the Ultramarines will even be the same chapter down the road that they used to be? (Just look what a hasty manpower restock did to the culture of the aforementioned Night Lords... and they were a whole legion.) Beneath all the Mary Tzu and the Mat-Ward-isms, Ultramarines are a really interesting chapter that nobody ever thinks about as being legitimately as imperiled as everybody else. It's this potential for genuine coolness that bugs me most about Mat Ward's faux-coolness that he tries to bludgeon his readers over the head with.
...
...Or maybe I just like blue.
100 Gaunts on the field to shoot down, 100 Gaunts on the field, you shoot just one, then reload your gun, 99 Gaunts still alive to shoot down
92% of people are very gullible and do whatever they read in someone's signature. If you are part of the 8% who don't, copy and paste this into your signature.
TOTALLY AGREEI hope the Angel Exterminatus is mostly on the IW, not the EC. The EC are boring. Perturabo has virtually no character, background etc, so this is a perfect oppurtuniity
Sqallum
first of i havent read the HH books i have only read the Index Astartes articles in WD
Loyalist Primarch: I really like Corax he seems so tragic and the neremore quote. Wonderfull. And i also like dorn, I see him as the unsung hero, he's the most loyal son, he's the last survivor of the attack on horuses battlebarge, and then roboute Guillman comes swooping in having done nothing and takes all the credit even opening fire on down when dorn opposes his codex astartes. To me Dorn is the essence of being a primarch, and the essence of a true space marine. But its not dorn either, its Lion el'Johansson, the greatest of the primarchs betrayed by his best friend and then vanishes, i still hope he'll be revealed to be Cypher one day but with the HH books sugesting some other person (thta no one ever heard of before) as Cypher i guess i can forgett that =(
Loyalist Legion: Once again the ravenguard score high, but dark angels win out. They've got depth because of the schism, i've even written up a third founding sucessor chapter to them(The "Order of the Lion" chapter), even though i dont plan on ever making a space marine army (I play CSM led by a fallen though).
Traitor Primarch: This one i hard, they've all got the classic fall from grace, which is a wonderfull story regardless of setting. Its betwen Conrad Curze, Mortarion and Magnus the red. But i think mortation wins out. I love the idea that he's raised by a semi demonic beign that he then overthrows and eventually he becomes the same thing as his adoptive father once wanted him to be. I'm not that fond of nurgle though, but Mortarion is really cool.
Traitor Legion: Alpha Legion or Thousand sons. The alpha legions guerilla warfare style is really cool i loved the story of their war on the ultramarines (index astartes) but i think the thousand sons win out, prior to the rubric of ahriman though ( hate that piece of fluff). Being the kind of person who wants to know everythign myself i can sympatise with them and they fell while trying to do the right thing. And then all of sudden theyre automatons and genreic tzeentch psykers, seems like such a waste of a intresting legion.
Last edited by TheDungen; 06-05-2012 at 01:44.
While I agree with this, you've got to remember why Ahriman performed the Rubric. The legion was getting destroyed by mutation already.
Not to get off subject but Soul Drinkers rock. If you haven't read their Omnibus, do it. I feel bad for them and really wish Forge World could do their models and their rules.
I should also add, from reading a lot of BL fiction lately, Dorn and the Fists have easily taken 2nd place behind Angron/World Eaters.
Noise Marines
I would have to go with Thousand Sons as my favorite Legion. Pre-Heresy for me though. Cool powers are just to much to pass on. Until about a day ago I would have went with Magnus but I just got done reading Deliverence Lost and now I has swung toward Corax. He has seemed like the most "real" of all the Primarchs. He cracks jokes and has relationships with those who aren't Space Marines.
And i didnt like that idea either. Tzeentch might be the god of change but he always has a plan, destroying his most loyal legion with mutations seems like a bad plan.
I dont think i'd mind all is dust if their personalities had remained but its pretty clear that they're basically mindles now =(
But of course Guilliman ‘’doing nothing’’ is quite inaccurate and he hardly takes ‘’all the credit’’ as no fluff source has even suggested.
Well, considering that I play both armies I guess I should tell you why, of course this thread is more appropriate.
The Ultramarines are my favorite army for a number of reasons. One is that I like Romans and Greeks, and the Ultramarines are effectively Space Romans. Blue is also my favorite color so that also held a clear appeal for me. Guilliman by comparison is Space Alexander crossed with Space Ceasar.
Ultramarines were also always the vanilla average guys. I like playing the vanilla average guys. They had a history and simplicity that I appreciated. They as seemed to be one of the more discipline and organized Space Marine Legions.
Their Primarch also wrote the Codex Astartes, the most comprehensive view of tactics and strategy in the Imperium, which is cool. And they adhere to it strictly, which for me is cool for an army to adhere to a code of honor. I liked the fact that they are the yardstick from which all other Astartes are measured to.
Some may say they are flawless, but I disagree. Their “flaw’’ is not having werewolf knights riding wolves or berserk vampire marines or some hidden dark secret. They may not have the ‘’flaws’’ that other chapters have, but they don’t get the ‘’cool stuff’’ that also comes with that.
As I mentioned before, I like playing vanilla armies. I played the Black Legion because they had a simple color scheme, they were the Legion of Horus himself and they could field anything in the Chaos Codex. I loved the fact I could field Berzerkers alongside Tzeentch Sorcerers and Nurgle Raptors and it would all be perfectly fluffy.
Last edited by Lord_Crull; 06-05-2012 at 15:22.
The Classical elements (as GW calls them) are a very late addition to the Ultramarines. Thats why the name Roboute guillman doesnt fit the culture he was raised in. Cause he had that name beofre Ultramar were given that culture. And i disagree with the decision to break the legions up into chapters which i blame mr guillman for. And i'm not saying he takes allt eh glory i'm saying he gets all the glory, gw cant write sm codex without spending half the book telling us how awesome roboute guillman and the ultramarines is. They're the scrappy of the Space Marines, the harder they push on us to love them the more people are going to dislike them. While i dont see that they neccessarly needs to be put on a bus they do need to be toned down. (While because of the hivelfeelts they could put them a on a buss but gw would never do something like that)
So the ultramarines flaws is that they dont have a flaw? thats a unique one i'll give you that.
oh and marty stu have been retconned to doing something during the horus heresy? lets all rejoice!
Last edited by TheDungen; 07-05-2012 at 07:14.
Their flaw is that they tend to things by the book when a bit of creative thinking would pay off more.
The interesting thing about them is their stubborn adherence to and their reverence of the Codex Astartes as the solution to all problems. The thing is, until the more recent Heresy books, the notion that one book can contain all the answers to warfare related problems struck me as arrogance on Guilliman's behalf.
However, after Rules of Engagement and Know No Fear, Guilliman seems to be perfectly aware that the Codex has limitations, and encourages his Ultramarines to improvise and find creative combinations of the working tactics and strategies contained within the CA.
Hydra Dominatus!
Alpha Legion aside, I have a soft spot for the Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red.
The Emperor upholds a teleological scheme for the future of man, unifying and perfecting humanity through the intense application of martial violence, and I will endeavour to uphold it.
Legion: Raven Guard because of guerrilla warfare and they bare the shame of their survival methods during the Horus Heresy, they are trying to fix it
Primarch: Corvus Corax becuase it's his legion
Guilliman had his name and Ultramar had their Space Roman culture since the earliest days of Second Edition, so no.
I’m not sure why you are complaining about someone liking Ultramarines. Doesn’t that defeat the point of the thread? It’s for people to talk about their favorite army and why they like them, criticizing people for liking that is rather counterproductive in the thread.
Hey i just mentioned it slightly in my praise for Rogal Dorn then you quoted me from my most hated primarch list on another thread. You should maybe have taken that discuassion there instead, you went offtopic not I.
I was mearly saying that Dorn was really cool because he opposed the codex astartes until guillman ordered his fleet to open fire upon the imperial fists, only then did dorn back down rather than risking another civil war over the matter. How coool isnt that! In fact i'm still considering changing my vote to Dorn. He refused to back down from his beliefs and that drove two of his brother primarchs to rebellion (Pertubro and Conrad Curze i belive though its been a while sicne i read the index astartes), i think thats a record (although Leman Russ was pretty good at that stuff to).
And though he would've hated Guillman for forcing him to destroy his own legion, he put that aside and served the imperium longer than any other primarch.
But the best reason comes from the 'Assult on holy terra' article in WD268:
"Rogal Dorn found the Emperor's broken body in the ruins of the warmaster's throne room. Through mangled lips, The Emperor whispered instructions for the creation of his golden throne. Dorn smiled, for while The Emperor still lived there was still hope. The Veteran primarch returned to Earth. There was much to be done."
pure rule of awesome! and note that we only get one smile and two thoughts and it still tells us everything we'll ever need to know of Dorn.
And while we're at it I didnt see anything but the upside down omega symbol on the ultramarines that made me think of the classical times until the space marine codex before the current one. And nothign of the kind is mentioned in their Index Astartes Article. Its possible they ignored it back then and then brought it back however.
Last edited by TheDungen; 07-05-2012 at 17:15.
I took it here to explain why I liked said Legion, in the thread about a person's favoruite Legion and why one liked them. You then responded in a blistering post to criticise them, as you had in the other thread.
You also said Guilliman went in and took all the credit, which I refuted.
And Guilliman did not order his fleet to open fire. The background merely mentions that a Navy strike cruiser fired on the Fists fleet, with no elaboration on to wheter it was an isolated incident or not. Although perhaps you missed the part in Dorn’s own Index Astartes article were it was explained that Dorn was blinded by the changing times and could not understand why the rest of the Imperium wanted to break up the Legions. And while the Black Templars Index Astartes certainly suggests that Rogal Dorn only relented to not start another civil war, the Imperial Fists Index Astartes instead describes how Dorn received a vision from the Emperor and finally came to terms with the changing times he had refused to acknowledge
The Space Roman part has always been present since the earliest days of Second Ediiton 20 years ago. It is also present in the Index Astartes article. (The culture of Macragge is obviously copied from Sparta and the Roman Republic.)
Last edited by Lord_Crull; 07-05-2012 at 18:12.
I agree. I don't think the Ultramarines are just based on Roman culture, there's definitely a 'pan-Classical' feel that includes some Greek tropes as well (like Space Wolves having elements of both Vikings and 'Celts').
Similarly, the Thousand Sons are morphing into a cocktail of ancient Egypt and Aztec imagery, although the degree seems to depend on the author.
Last edited by MvS; 08-05-2012 at 09:57.
Complete Rules for the Chaos Legions make a return at last!
Updated and revised for the 6th Edition.
Hence i never use the word roman or greek i have only used classical.
and you quoted me which meant it was a response ti my post where i not suposed to answer then why did you quote me in the first place?
And i'll check the WD next time i'm home.
they took all the credit was meant to mean GW gave them all the credit.
It doenst say the rest of the imperium, And Dorn isnt the only primarch to oppose the breaking up into chapters. In fact amongst the Primarchs the only one i remember supporting it was Corax, the others are either not mentioned or said that they didnt want it. The again at this point 1 is missing (Vulkan) 2 are dead (Sanguistinius and Ferrus Manus).
Dorn didnt want it and i'm pretty sure the lion didnt want it.
Guilman wanted it and corax wanted it.
That leaves Khan and Russ. I'm going to guess that the defacto leaders of the Blood angels salamanders and iron hands didnt get a say in the matter .
The question is did they vote or did the ultramarines roll in with a barley unused legion and say this is the way its going to be?
and you act like Dorn stubborness is a reason not to like him, thats a reason to love him, thats who he is. Never back down is as imperial fists as it gets.
Last edited by TheDungen; 08-05-2012 at 12:25.
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