Dan Abnett and Primarchs (SPOILERS)

[Captain Stern]

I like Dan Abnett and think all his HH books so far have been top notch. Prospero Burns was a bit of a let down but it was still well written (as always) and obviously the product of an intelligent mind who knows what he's doing, which is not something you can say about the rest of the HH writers. Right, now that I've taken another s**t on the other HH authors, let's move on.

Pretty much the only thing that seriously annoys me about Dan's HH books is his sort of scitzophrenic depiction of the Primarchs. Every now and then he'll describe how awesome they are and about how no one but The Emperor and their brothers can match them etc etc but then, when he finally shows them in actual combat, they kinda, well, suck. Now, I'm not talking about Abnett's generally more restrained, conservative, depiction of the primarchs when they're fighting. This I don't really mind all that much since it fits with his much less fantasy themed vision of 40k for which he set the precedent I think it's fair to say (Having said that he could juice them up a bit more. There were times in Know No Fear when Ventanus seemed much more badass than his Primarch).

What I'm talking about, and this really annoys me, are things like the following:

Horus having a hard time in single combat with that Chaos corrupted general who managed to stick him with the anathame.

Dinas Chayne (an un-augmented human) giving Alpharius a hard time in single combat and wounding him in the process.

And, perhaps worst of all, after not so subtly hinting that he's one of the, if not the, hardest of the Primarchs, Rouboute Guilliman gets absolutely merked by Kor Phaeron's psychic attack and has to rely on the author to save him by having the villain commit a seriously cliched error of judgement.

That's basically it.

Could somebody have a word with him, please?

[BobtheInquisitor]

Dan's primarchs are comparable to other authors' space marines, and his space marines are idiots in power armor, but interesting idiots.

The only time Dan has written superhuman characters who generally felt superhuman (i.e., above being threatened by a bow and arrow while in armor) was Brotherhood of the Snake, and his fans excoriated him for it. I guess it's a case of "lesson learned".

[stormblade]

Please no.
When I read battle scenes from other authors (ex. Gav Thorpe) I have to force myself not to skip them on the account of how unbelivable and thus annoying they are.

[Lothlanathorian]

I've gotten to the point where the only time I'll read anything written by Dan Abnett is if it is Gaunt's Ghosts or a comic book (he writes superhumans fantastically when it's a comic book for Marvel).

[Mánagarmr]

I'm with you. I'm not a fan of him destroying the consistency we see about the Primarchs in other 40K novels. They go from being demi-gods in most novels, to what I would consider an average Marine. With his view of 40K, Draigo smacking Mortarion around seems perfectly normal.

[TrooperTino]

The only time Dan has written superhuman characters who generally felt superhuman (i.e., above being threatened by a bow and arrow while in armor) was Brotherhood of the Snake, and his fans excoriated him for it. I guess it's a case of "lesson learned".

Which is a shame. I loved the space marines in BotS, they felt superhuman like they should.

[Captain Stern]

Dan's primarchs are comparable to other authors' space marines, and his space marines are idiots in power armor, but interesting idiots.

The only time Dan has written superhuman characters who generally felt superhuman (i.e., above being threatened by a bow and arrow while in armor) was Brotherhood of the Snake, and his fans excoriated him for it. I guess it's a case of "lesson learned".

Why does it have to be either extreme? Couldn't he meet us at the middle somewhere? Too late now, of course.

[DietDolphin]

And, perhaps worst of all, after not so subtly hinting that he's one of the, if not the, hardest of the Primarchs, Rouboute Guilliman gets absolutely merked by Kor Phaeron's psychic attack and has to rely on the author to save him by having the villain commit a seriously cliched error of judgement.

Thats interesting as when one of the Thousand Sons unleashes absolutely everything he has on Russ in A Thousand Sons, Russ is not affected at all. I was starting to think Psychic powers simply didn't effect Primarchs.

[althathir]

Thats interesting as when one of the Thousand Sons unleashes absolutely everything he has on Russ in A Thousand Sons, Russ is not affected at all. I was starting to think Psychic powers simply didn't effect Primarchs.

The Sisters of Silence were part of the assault on Prospero and that would impact the situation (I don't think they did a great job of explaining them), they also would have been present at the council of Nikaea.

[2_heads_talking]

Horus having a hard time in single combat with that Chaos corrupted general who managed to stick him with the anathame.

I've only read the first two Horus Heresy novels, so I may be wrong as it may have been referenced again by Dan Abnett in another novel, but didn't Graham NacNeill (is that his name?) write the second novel which referenced Horus' difficult fight with the general?

[Rogue Star]

Horus having a hard time in single combat with that Chaos corrupted general who managed to stick him with the anathame.

Wasn't that Graham McNeill?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Wasn't that Graham McNeill?

Details details....

[Son of Sanguinius]

You are right, Rogue Star. That was Graham McNeil.

The main problem isn't with Dan Abnett, or any of the other authors, it's with the source material. Because the Primarchs are outright stated to be nigh-on invincible, moments in which they fall are difficult to handle, just as it's difficult to handle moments where their mindsets are explained. I could give sensible reasons for almost all of the primarch duels that are considered strange - Phaeron is steeped in chaos lore and that always lends a considerable edge. But Abnett has to build Guilliman up as mandated by the setting, and this presents a setback for the climactic fight to overcome.

Now, I can agree with the sentiment that I would have handled many of these fights differently. What bugged me about the Phaeron duel has nothing to do with the chaos zzapping. Guilliman's somehow able to talk after his throat has been sliced open and then somehow a primarch-sized power fist is able to punch into Kor Phaeron's chest dramatically and then pluck out is heart, rather than annihilating Phaeron's torso or punching him across the bridge.

An example where it is handled a little better, to my mind, obviously, is the duel between Lorgar and Ang'grath in Aurelian. This is a visceral, brutal, bestial fight that captures Lorgar's potency while still having him thoroughly maimed by the demon. It's clear that Dembski-Bowden wanted to convey the awesome combat ability of a Primarch (perhaps with a boost from Chaos), but he does so in a way that still presents a serious threat to Lorgar's life. There's an argument to be made that the choice of Ang'grath was a little too much considering he's the most powerful demon of the most powerful Chaos God and that Lorgar is said to be one of less skilled Primarchs, but if the objective is to show how powerful Primarchs are in general, it's hard to do better.

[Captain Stern]

I've only read the first two Horus Heresy novels, so I may be wrong as it may have been referenced again by Dan Abnett in another novel, but didn't Graham NacNeill (is that his name?) write the second novel which referenced Horus' difficult fight with the general?

Oops, you're right. My mistake.

[Captain Stern]

The main problem isn't with Dan Abnett, or any of the other authors, it's with the source material. Because the Primarchs are outright stated to be nigh-on invincible, moments in which they fall are difficult to handle

...........

But Abnett has to build Guilliman up as mandated by the setting, and this presents a setback for the climactic fight to overcome

There's nothing wrong with the source material/ setting. There are plenty of opponents in 30k for primarchs: Other Primarchs, high ranking Daemon Princes and similar Greater Daemons. Really, would it have been so bad to have Lorgar in Kor Phaeron's place? Or would that have been so impossible? Failing that there's always numbers and also treachery. In fact, if memory serves, there were a bunch of Daemon Princes with Erebus in the south (why did he have to say there were hundreds of thousands of them though? It never ends with Dan Abnett, does it?). Kor Phaeron AND, say, two Daemon Princes would have been more appropriate.

I could give sensible reasons for almost all of the primarch duels that are considered strange - Phaeron is steeped in chaos lore and that always lends a considerable edge.

.................

Abnett has to build Guilliman up as mandated by the setting, and this presents a setback for the climactic fight to overcome

I'm sure that's what was going through his head too. I don't think there's any way of justifying it really. What he's done is create a fundamental, totally avoidable, problem. Now a Chaos space marine librarian from 40k is > Primarch. A Space marine librarian from 40k > Primarch. Eldar Farseer > Primarch. That idiot!

Now, I can agree with the sentiment that I would have handled many of these fights differently. What bugged me about the Phaeron duel has nothing to do with the chaos zzapping. Guilliman's somehow able to talk after his throat has been sliced open and then somehow a primarch-sized power fist is able to punch into Kor Phaeron's chest dramatically and then pluck out is heart, rather than annihilating Phaeron's torso or punching him across the bridge.

How can you be bothered more by a technical flaw like that than by a violation of something so fundamental i.e. A primarch being pwned by a CSM sorceror? Don't answer that.

If it helps I remember that his Power Fist was off/lost its power field when he did it.

just as it's difficult to handle moments where their mindsets are explained.

Thanks for highlighting this.

I consider a satisfying depiction of the Primarch mindset, brain, intelligence, personality et al to be at least as important as the depiction of their combat capabilities. Abnett, being by far the most (in my opinion the only) sophisticated writer of the bunch, is great at fulfilling the former but a bit crap at doing the latter, which is a bit odd because it's so much easier.

I think, more than anything else, it's the crappy, ham-fisted, handling of this all important aspect of the Primarchs (and also the high ranking marines like Abaddon, Grulgor et al who would have to be truly extraordinary men in their own right) by the other authors (not Abnett) that has made me dislike the series so intensely and even made me hate these guys for ruining something that I love i.e. the HH/ Great Crusade. I'm tempted to give Bowden an exemption because, in my opinion at any rate, he really understands the setting (30K & 40K)in a way that's almost reminiscent of Bill King, and he's also given the best portrayals of the Primarchs in combat situations so far. Having said that, he's as bad as the rest of them in his handling of the stuff that takes more skill as a writer. Maybe he'll improve with time but, God damn, does he have to cut his teeth on something as sacred as the Horus Heresy? The other guys I have no time for whatsoever and skip all their offerings. Incidentally, I hear it's still up in the air as to who should handle the Siege of Terra. What a joke. Dan Abnett is the only one worthy.

An example where it is handled a little better, to my mind, obviously, is the duel between Lorgar and Ang'grath in Aurelian. This is a visceral, brutal, bestial fight that captures Lorgar's potency while still having him thoroughly maimed by the demon. It's clear that Dembski-Bowden wanted to convey the awesome combat ability of a Primarch (perhaps with a boost from Chaos), but he does so in a way that still presents a serious threat to Lorgar's life. There's an argument to be made that the choice of Ang'grath was a little too much considering he's the most powerful demon of the most powerful Chaos God and that Lorgar is said to be one of less skilled Primarchs, but if the objective is to show how powerful Primarchs are in general, it's hard to do better.

I didn't know about this. There seems to have been a mix up somewhere along the line between the HH authors. I remember that in Horus Rising (or was it False Gods?) Erebus or one of the other Word Bearers was saying that Lorgar had become much more powerful than Horus thanks to Chaos. This seemed to carry over into Know No Fear. In The First Heretic, however, Lorgar did come accross as one of the weaker primarchs. Maybe I'm mistaken and it's a matter of timeline? Also good on Bowden for that.

I just had a look at Aurelian on BL. £20! £30! And for a novella no less! Ridiculous. Is there a cheaper option anywhere I don't know about?

[Son of Sanguinius]

There's nothing wrong with the source material/ setting. There are plenty of opponents in 30k for primarchs. Other Primarchs, high ranking Daemon Princes and similar Greater Daemons. Really, would it have been so bad to have Lorgar in Kor Phaeron's place? Or would that have been so impossible? Failing that there's always numbers and also treachery. In fact, if memory serves, there were a bunch of Daemon Princes with Erebus in the south (why did he have to say there were hundreds of thousands of them though? It never ends with Dan Abnett, does it?). Kor Phaeron AND, say, two Daemon Princes would have been more appropriate.

I didn't say there's anything wrong with the setting, though there are many things wrong with the setting. I said that the problem is with, or to be more accurate to what I meant, the problem is created by the setting.

Kor Phaeron is not some random Chaos Sorcerer. He's an incredibly dedicated servant of Chaos who helped to turn Lorgar to the worship of the Gods and essentially initiate the Heresy along with Erebus. He is a very, very important individual and I personally don't have a problem with him having tremendous power. That said, I wouldn't have written the duel with him simply blasting Guilliman three times and winning, but the capability to injure Guilliman is not only realistic, it's necessary for the duel to have any meaning at all other than Ultramarines fan service.

I'm sure that's what was going through his head too. I don't think there's any way of justifying it really. What he's done is create a fundamental, totally avoidable, problem. Now a Chaos space marine librarian from 40k is > Primarch. A Space marine librarian from 40k > Primarch. Eldar Farseer > Primarch. That idiot!

That's like calling Abaddon just your run of the mill Chaos Lord or calling Eldrad a run of the mill Farseer. You're completely devaluing Kor Phaeron's power. He's supposed to be a genius with a determination to match. That will lend itself to grasping incredible power.

Do you also find Luther's background distasteful? I mean that question genuinely, not sarcastically.

How can you be bothered more by technical flaw like that than by a violation of something so fundamental i.e. A primarch being pwned by a CSM sorceror? Don't answer that.

If it helps I remember that his Power Fist was off/lost its power field when he did it.

Talking with a split windpipe is more than a technical flaw, and the field on the fist doesn't matter. That fist is simply too big. It has to either punch Phaeron across the room or destroy his torso entirely.

I didn't know about this. There seems to have been a mix up somewhere along the line between the HH authors. I remember that in Horus Rising (or was it False Gods?) Erebus or one of the other Word Bearers was saying that Lorgar had become much more powerful than Horus thanks to Chaos. This seemed to carry over into Know No Fear. In The First Heretic, however, Lorgar did come accross as one of the weaker primarchs. Maybe I'm mistaken and it's a matter of timeline? Also good on Bowden for that.

I just had a look at Aurelian on BL. £20! £30! And for a novella no less! Ridiculous. Is there a cheaper option anywhere I don't know about?

Very difficult to get a hold of if you're not willing to pay. Aurelian is set after the events of The First Heretic, save for a huge flashback in the middle.

[Captain Stern]

I didn't say there's anything wrong with the setting, though there are many things wrong with the setting. I said that the problem is with, or to be more accurate to what I meant, the problem is created by the setting.

Kor Phaeron is not some random Chaos Sorcerer. He's an incredibly dedicated servant of Chaos who helped to turn Lorgar to the worship of the Gods and essentially initiate the Heresy along with Erebus. He is a very, very important individual and I personally don't have a problem with him having tremendous power. That said, I wouldn't have written the duel with him simply blasting Guilliman three times and winning, but the capability to injure Guilliman is not only realistic, it's necessary for the duel to have any meaning at all other than Ultramarines fan service.

That's like calling Abaddon just your run of the mill Chaos Lord or calling Eldrad a run of the mill Farseer. You're completely devaluing Kor Phaeron's power. He's supposed to be a genius with a determination to match. That will lend itself to grasping incredible power.

Alright, alright. While, imo, Guilliman v Phaeron should never have taken place, I'll grant that, yes, a guy like that (& I'm actually semi fond of the character, mind)should certainly be able to hurt a primarch. The fact is he trounced Guilliman. It was embarrassing. If this "duel" *groan* was absolutely neccessary then what Abnett could have done, and this would have been much more appropriate imo, is for Kor to whip out some ancient artifact (Dan's no stranger to these) he may have aquired on his journey in the Eye of Terror (or was it on the outskirts?) and used this to deal with Guilliman. Or, like I said, unleash a few uber daemons which he'd kept in reserve a la Horus, Malekith and so on.

Eldrad? I don't know. Thing is I remember when Eldrad wasn't, in the parlance of our times, "all that". He's certainly much more now, I grant. As I get older I suppose I don't mind the idea of an Eldar like Eldrad causing problems for a Primarch but I would like it to be in the vein of what my suggestion for the Kor Phaeron v Roboute Guilliman duel was and not through pure, Dragonball Z style, power (which has never really been a very Eldary approach to anything anyway).

To further complicate things I'm going to assert that, before this series, it was a given that all of the primarchs were psykers.

I don't like the idea of any space marine or Chaos space marine surpassing a Primarch and I don't think the setting's ever implied that such a thing was any less than preposterous. That is, unfortunately, *wince* apart from...

Do you also find Luther's background distasteful? I mean that question genuinely, not sarcastically.

It's funny you should bring that up. I've always despised that piece of background and have hated Jervis Johnson ever since. I loathe that thing he inflicted on us circa 2nd edition. It's been with us so long now that I no longer hold out any hope that the Dark Angels (& their primarch) can go back to what they used to be. Yes, I realise there wasn't much background on them back then but what there was (mainly The Lion and the Wolf color texts) was understated and great and could have been built upon.

Look at the problems they're now having with the DA's and Lion El' Jonson in the updated Horus Heresy. They just don't fit and wouldn't be missed if they were gone. But I remember a time when the DAs and El' Jonson were very significant. Jonson had a cool personality. He had the second highest victory tally after Horus in the Great Crusade. He was the equal of Russ (no less) in combat and they relieved Terra alongside the Space Wolves. They also had cool black armour, no robes, had blonde crew cuts like Dolph Lundgren and were Games Workshop's "cover" chapter.

Now it's Dorn who has the 2nd highest victory tally after Horus, El' Jonson lost a duel to ******* Luther and can't control his legion (this is old by now but still), and it's the Ultras who now relieve Terra and not Lion El' Jonson (who's now an all around incompetent, douchy, one dimensional d**k head of a primarch). They don't really know what to do with him or his chapter in this series. He doesn't fit and no matter how much Thorpe and the other one tries to convince us he and his chapter actually are relevant, it's just not convincing at all. It all stems from this crappy Luther/ fallen background update from 2nd ed.

This rant was totally inappropriate for this thread I now realise. Then again the people need to know!

Talking with a split windpipe is more than a technical flaw, and the field on the fist doesn't matter. That fist is simply too big. It has to either punch Phaeron across the room or destroy his torso entirely.

Did he actually cut it all the way? I thought he only pressed it enough to draw blood and that Guilliman killed him before he got the chance to finish it? There's always "Primarch physiology" to fall back on I suppose. The Kurgan from Highlander was still able to talk...

Maybe it was only the tips of the fingers of the power fist that made it through the terminator armour?

I'm not really all that bothered to be honest. I'd sooner have to deal with a hundred things like this than "Kor Phaeron-gate".

Christ, look at that wall of text... Sorry guys.

----EDIT----

Should it be "Kor Phaeron-gate" or "Guilliman-gate"? "Duel-gate?"

[flota]

i think the primarchs should feel more "epic" when they are fighting, we got horus vs the emperor, lorgar vs daemon, russ vs magnus, sanguinius vs daemon... the primarchs should be writen in a more awesome way when they fight.

i got that guilliman is the greatest micromanager in the imperium, but hes a primarch he should have killed that sorceror or at least inflicted more damage to him.

[Mánagarmr]

It's curious that Guilliman got stomped-out by somebody who, as far as I know, wasn't a very powerful psyker. Especially when Russ fought Magnus - who had supped from the chalice of Tzeentch for some additionally borrowed power - and shrugged it off. So is Russ unique? Is it just author inconsistency? What's the deal?

I guess I just assumed that all the Primarchs were psychically resistant, because of the way they were created. I mean, wasn't that why the Chaos gods couldn't just take them by force? They had to be "seduced" and all that jazz. So when did this change?

[2_heads_talking]

Sorry to potentially derail the thread, but I have to say if they brought back Bill King to write the Siege of Terra, I would read it. I may have missed every other book leading up to it, but I would read it.