Dan Abnett and Primarchs (SPOILERS)

[stormblade]

See, I'm starting to suspect that maybe he's confused about which is which. His Guardsmen are always ridiculously over-the-top to me; while his Astartes are always weak grunts, who are trying for some type of character depth that never comes about.

His guardsmen are heroes his astartes are tools, though definitely not weak grunts from what I read (Salvation's Reach, Eisenhorn, Know No Fear, Prospero Burns and a few more). One simply couldn't get heroism out of an Astartes because it isn't a natural person.

[thor2006]

But by the same token, why can't someone genuinely prefer the newer, fresher authors without someone always bumbling in to tell them how much better their favoured crusty old relic is? As to the seige, I'd like to see multiple novels from multiple perspectives, from the three authors who have done the series justice; ADB, Dan Abnett, and Graham McNeil. Just don't let Gav Thorpe anywhere near it for god's sake; indeed just keep him out of the series in general. If William King wants to write one of the HH novels, more power to him, I did always enjoy Gotrek & Felix, but don't act as though the whole series is a bust without him being involved, he's not -that- amazing.

EDIT: Ah, I see in my haste to reply I missed the beginnings of the inevitable "giving the Chaos legions -any depth whatsoever- is making them into wusses". Tell me, would you actually be enjoying the HH series more if all the books regarding the traitor legions basically amounted to them engaging in killy killy death death on behalf of the Emperor for 90% of the novel, and then just suddenly go "hmm, this Chaos thingie sounds cools, I'm in bro!" in the last chapter? Because that's what the traitor legion novels would amount to. Without the tragic element or intriguing conspiracy, the fall of the traitors is meaningless. On which note, I don't see any of the people who whinge on about Magnus or Legion doing the same about the long-established tragic elements of, for example, Angron's story.

Maybe because now it seams that all the traitor legions/primarchs are more bad ass than any loyalist legions/primarchs and that the traitor primarchs can do no wrong and the loyalist primarch will behave like ******.

It seems to me that the loyalist primarchs are the rejects,the ******, the weaklings of the primarchs. They can be outwitted or outfought by virtually anyone.

It is like they tried to make the traitor primarch as bad ass as possible while pushing down every other loyalist primarch.

[Karl MkVI]

Btw, if you re-read Legion very carefully, it's not Alpharius at the end fighting Chayne, nor Omegon. It's Sheed Ranko.

[Sqallum]

Btw, if you re-read Legion very carefully, it's not Alpharius at the end fighting Chayne, nor Omegon. It's Sheed Ranko.

It is? Actually, the 'Only Thing You Get' line he does
Sqallum

[Karl MkVI]

It is? Actually, the 'Only Thing You Get' line he does
Sqallum

Indeed; this is the giveaway. This line, in the two scenes it is spoken, plus a scene between Alphas shortly after the first time the line is used, points towards the notion that it's Ranko.

[Freak Ona Leash]

See, I'm starting to suspect that maybe he's confused about which is which. His Guardsmen are always ridiculously over-the-top to me; while his Astartes are always weak grunts, who are trying for some type of character depth that never comes about.

I dunno. In his short story Little Horus, the Astartes kick ass. In Legion and Horus Rising and Prospero Burns the Astartes are all adequately shown to be transhuman murder-machines. In the much-maligned (on the internet at least, I personally love it) Brothers of The Snake, Abnett caught a lot of flak from internet folks on the over-the-top, mythical-hero scale killing power of his Astartes. In Salvation's Reach too, his Space Marines are awe-inspiring death-dealers. Where do Abnett's Astartes suffer in regards to their (odious term coming up) "power level"? From what I have read, Dan Abnett is one of the best Black Library authors and indeed one of my favorite military SF authors in general at the moment.

[Reivax26]

The only Heresy novel I have read was Flight of the Eisenstein and I actually really liked it. The part later on when Garro tells Dorn about Horus' betrayal and Dorn backhands him across the room with such speed and power that Garro barely had time to flinch before he was flying through the air really shows the difference in power and skill from a Space Marine Captain to a Primarch. His depiction of Mortarion I thought was pretty spot on and although I didn't get to see Angron or Fulgrim actually fight I thought his description of them was pretty awesome.

Also I believe that McNeil wrote it, not to get off topic. Now that I think about it I have never read anything that Abnett has ever wrote.

[Xisor]

(on the internet at least, I personally love it)

Don't worry. I much-malign it in person too.

I think it's only Brothers of the Snake that stands out like a sore-thumb for me. The over-the-top scale really blew it for me, but even then I'm not convinced - I'd almost argue that it's the underwhelming nature of Marines' enemies. Does that make sense? (A difference between the Marines being too good and the enemies being too rubbish?)

Anyway, personally I've not experienced much 'awful' from him otherwise. His Gaunt's Ghosts I've heard things levelled at, but having read very little of the GG books, I can't honestly comment. I'd certainly agree otherwise that of (at least) his recent work, Abnett's been...damn good. If not better than that.


(I did start out as something of an Abnett disparager, but that's almost entirely fell by the wayside [except BotS]. Perhaps it stems from ill-judged or not-quite-so-good scales in his earlier GW work?)

Reivax: 'Twas Jim Swallow who wrote Eisenstein, but broadly I agree, the little we saw of Mortarion was really rather endearing. (Abnett's HH stuff's well worth a shot. Legion and Horus Rising can be read at your leisure without foreknowledge of other books; Know No Fear benefits from [though doesn't require] having read The First Heretic.)

[Lord_Crull]

I dunno. In his short story Little Horus, the Astartes kick ass. In Legion and Horus Rising and Prospero Burns the Astartes are all adequately shown to be transhuman murder-machines. In the much-maligned (on the internet at least, I personally love it) Brothers of The Snake, Abnett caught a lot of flak from internet folks on the over-the-top, mythical-hero scale killing power of his Astartes. In Salvation's Reach too, his Space Marines are awe-inspiring death-dealers. Where do Abnett's Astartes suffer in regards to their (odious term coming up) "power level"? From what I have read, Dan Abnett is one of the best Black Library authors and indeed one of my favorite military SF authors in general at the moment.

In Traitor General, five chaos Marines are all killed by less than a dozen tired and wounded Guardsmen and a few dozen peasant tribesmen.

[Freak Ona Leash]

In Traitor General, five chaos Marines are all killed by less than a dozen tired and wounded Guardsmen and a few dozen peasant tribesmen.

One example out of many books does not make a discernable trend. Plus, everyone has off days. Even Chaos Marines

[shadowhawk2008]

Has anyone here read the Kill Hill eShort? Priad is rather, killy-killy-killy orks in that one.

[Freak Ona Leash]

Has anyone here read the Kill Hill eShort? Priad is rather, killy-killy-killy orks in that one.

Existing on an Ork-held world alone for 15 years is mighty indeed. Especially if you're still successful in dismantling the WAAGH!

[TheMav80]

In Traitor General, five chaos Marines are all killed by less than a dozen tired and wounded Guardsmen and a few dozen peasant tribesmen.

Are we to believe that Space Marines are totally infallible? When you say it is as simply as this it does sound ridiculous. As though some random nobodies came up and punched out Space Marines. When what actually happens is several very cocky Chaos Marines come marching in with no regard for the fact that some insignificant normal humans could be any threat to them. When they are actually up against some of the very best soldiers the Imperial Guard has. These aren't random farm boys that have just been handed a lasgun.

[L192837465]

Are we to believe that Space Marines are totally infallible? When you say it is as simply as this it does sound ridiculous. As though some random nobodies came up and punched out Space Marines. When what actually happens is several very cocky Chaos Marines come marching in with no regard for the fact that some insignificant normal humans could be any threat to them. When they are actually up against some of the very best soldiers the Imperial Guard has. These aren't random farm boys that have just been handed a lasgun.

You know, when I first read this it really made me mad, then I re-read how they died. One had a SATCHEL of tube-charges strapped to him, another had a bolter fired point blank I think 6 or 7 times directly into his face, and one had several dozen poisoned darts (of which one could kill many humans instantly) directly hitting his face, and he almost lives.

The most unrealistic part of the entire combat was a guardsman being able to hold let alone fire an astartes bolter.

[stormblade]

The most unrealistic part of the entire combat was a guardsman being able to hold let alone fire an astartes bolter.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...dId=prod40004a

or am I missing something?

[shadowhawk2008]

Yes. harker totally represents the average case!

[Yodhrin]

In Traitor General, five chaos Marines who drastically underestimate their opponents are all killed by less than a dozen tired and wounded elite special forces Guardsmen containing some of the deadliest Marbo-level badasses in the galaxy, led by a hero of the Imperium, and a few dozen peasant tribesmen armed with incredibly effective poisoned weapons and who mostly end up dead.

If you're going to describe something in an attempt to disparage it, describe it accurately. Seriously, one incident, one single act of improbable victory, in a series devoted to the Guard, featuring the main protagonists of said series, protagonists who are continually described as and shown to be a substantial cut above regular human soldiery, that is enough for you to condemn the man's entire body of work, despite every other publication listed by Freak showing the exact opposite of your assertion?

Marines can, in fact, die. Even, shockingly, to regular humans on occasion.

[Wyrmwood]

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...dId=prod40004a

or am I missing something?

I think it's safe to assume that isn't an astartes pattern heavy bolter.

[stormblade]

I think it's safe to assume that isn't an astartes pattern heavy bolter.

Poster I quoted wrote bolter not heavy bolter. My point is if Harker can handle -that- then standard issue guardsman might be able to use atartes pattern bolter to an extent.

[Wyrmwood]

Poster I quoted wrote bolter not heavy bolter. My point is if Harker can handle -that- then standard issue guardsman might be able to use atartes pattern bolter to an extent.

I know what you said, dude. A soldier with suitable bionics might be able to withstand the kick, but not a normal human. I'm not sure how it's logical to assume that an astartes pattern bolter would somehow sit between a man portable heavy bolter and something smaller in terms of kick.