Can you leave combat using Smoke and Mirrors (shadow lore attribute)

[warplock]

Well it doesn't say you CAN'T leave combat, it just says you can swap with a friendly character of the same troop type, and places no restrictions on this. However, unless I'm mistaken in this situation it's usually explicitly specified that you can leave combat, i.e. Skitterleap says you can. And being able to leave combat with a 5+ spell, for example, seems a bit overpowered. It makes the Slann pretty much unkillable with the right tactics. Just seems wrong that you could use some great tactics and finally catch a Mage's unit in combat, then all he has to do is survive one round and then he can swap places with someone else. So I wondered how people here play it? Does anyone play that you can't leave combat, or do you all just assume that you can?

[Von Wibble]

I've always played that you can. The reason its a good attribute is that you can then use it to make the enemy think they are fighting a wizard, then have them fighting a lord instead.

Trouble in practise with this is that not many people take fighty characters since troops do more damage for the points these days.

[T10]

The Lore attribute is not very restrictive, and there are a large number of issues with joining and units that are not addressed. You will need to resolve this with your opponent and roll off if you cannot agree.

[BlackPawl]

I would say no because there is no exception from leaving a combat.

Joining a combat with this because it is not a charge move (and without it you can not get into contact with an enemy model), so another model would get into close combat without charging and this is forbidden ...

[Dirty Mac]

Page 101 in the rule book states, that a character can't leave a unit if it is in combat.

[TsukeFox]

Page 101 in the rule book states, that a character can't leave a unit if it is in combat.

But skitter leap can target a character in combat.
Soo rulebook out weighs BRB- but does BrB out weigh itself?

[GotrekFan]

I believe there is also something in the HE armoury that teleports the bearer out of combat - some magic armour.
I'd argue that this is exactly the circumstance that this lore attribute was designed for & should be used as such because by definition it is a special rule an so should override the standard rules.


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[T10]

If you apply all the normal rules for leaving and joining units then Smoke & Mirrors won't pose any problems. However, it doesn't say these rules apply, and it doesn't say they do not.

[BlackPawl]

[QUOTE=GotrekFan;6119424]I believe there is also something in the HE armoury that teleports the bearer out of combat - some magic armour.
I'd argue that this is exactly the circumstance that this lore attribute was designed for & should be used as such because by definition it is a special rule an so should override the standard rules.


We can argue about that, but that would not solve the problem because that is no rule.
Rulewise the lore attribute did not allow to leave a combat with Smoke and Mirrors (not as the star armor or skitterleap), so there is no way to get out of a combat. Leaving is leaving, regardless which method you use for it (walk, run, jump, teleport etc.).

[T10]

That is your opinion, I take it?

Rulewise the Smoke & Mirror Lore attributes does not specify any circumstances under which the swapped characters are allowed or disallowed to join or leave units.

-T10

[Scalebug]

Thing is; All restrictions on leaving and joining units in 8th are pointing to doing so during the movement phase (by charging or during the remaining moves sub-phase to be precise)... so, noting that skitterleap may be use to escape combat isn't actually needed per se (I don't recall how it was worded in 7th, might have something to do with that?).

Sure, it can then be argued that Smoke and Mirrors might not be used to swap if either party is in a unit, since there is no specific rules on how to do it, and thus an allowance to, in the magic phase.... it just says "swap" and that is all. But that doesn't feel like the intent of the rules, does it?

+1 on Yes to swapping with models in combat.

[DaemonReign]

+1 to being able to swap a character engaged in combat.
I go further than that too. I'd say you can swap a character in a Challange, too, without even having the Challange ended.
As far as I am concerned the clear intent of the Attribute, and the most fun way of playing it at any rate.

[warplock]

Thanks everyone. I think as T10 has shown, there's no definite answer either way. I can't say I've seen anything here which would convince me to allow swapping out of combat, as stated in my first post, it just seems contrary to the spirit of the game to me, and definitely overpowered for a 5+ spell. But that's just my opinion of course.

[GotrekFan]

Bear in mind that this lore attribute is extremely situational. My local group tends to spam life and shadow and I've yet to see the shadow attribute used whereas the attributes for life, death, metal and light can be game winning (or have an serious impact anyway)



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[Scalebug]

I think you should take a bit caution here; You came in with an opinion, found some support for it, and left unchanged... be wary of that. Just saying.

Dirtymac and Blackpawl are both wrong on what the rules say there (nothing personal, just a fact), and T10, while correct in what he says is actually just pointing out that there is no rules for it...

The rules tell you that you can swap, then you must be able to swap... the limitations for joining or leaving are as I said, if you read it in the BRB, all based on it being done in the movement phase. You can only draw "you can't go on it not saying you can't" that far, before it makes anything impossible....

My money is on any opponent you coming up against would likely play it as "allowed". Just saying. It's not that over-powered, as get out of combat tool, as you seem to think it is. Think you will find it having an effect more often when it is used for that extra bit of range for a spell or shooting attack.

[Smogg]

I got to agree with Scalebug. Smoke and Mirrors state that you can swap. There are no limitations specified regarding close combat.

There is a whole array of "usual" restrictions that are ignored with special effects like these. These just a handfull i could think of when doing Smoke and Mirrors
-You dont have to care that other units are blocking your way in the swap
-You dont have to care that you are swapping for more than twice your movement distance.
-You dont have to care if either model is in close combat.
-You dont have to care if the other model is not in line of sight
-You dont have to care of the other model is in a building (even though there are special rules for entering and leaving buildings)
-You dont have to take a dangerous terrain test even if swapping into or out of dangerous area.

Basically you dont have to care about any restrictions unless specified in the Smoke and Mirrors.

[Dirty Mac]

Dirtymac and Blackpawl are both wrong on what the rules say there (nothing personal, just a fact),

All I said, was that the page 101 of the rule book states that a Character can not leave a unit if the unit is in combat. So I am actually correct, Just stating a fact.
I never said anything about whether or not it could be overridden by the Shadow magic lore attribute.

[BlackPawl]

All I said, was that the page 101 of the rule book states that a Character can not leave a unit if the unit is in combat. So I am actually correct, Just stating a fact.
I never said anything about whether or not it could be overridden by the Shadow magic lore attribute.

And I am not convinced!

First of all it is a movement, regardless if it resolved in the movement phase or in another phase, so we have to use the rules for movement for it.

You can swap position with another character if both are not in combat. So far we agree.

But: If there is no permission to do some things (like with the spell "skitterleap" to leave a combat), then the normal restriction should apply to it.
Just because it is not disallowed means not that it is allowed ...

And there are two restriction:
a) the one Dirty Mac referred to that you could not leave a combat, and
b) that no character / unit can go into a close combat without charging into it.


Only when there is an exception from the basic rule then it is allowed (so as the random movement (=> no charge have to be declared / Bonus movement from the screaming bell can get it into close combat if it bring it into contact with an enemy unit etc.). But in all this cases it is mentioned in the rules.

[Smogg]

Smoke and Mirrors is clearly not movement. It takes place in the magic phase and there is no references to the movement phase or even movement.

By your argument a character in combat cannot fall into a pit of shades if in close combat. O.o

It's really pretty simple. The basic rules wont allow you to swap characters no matter if they are in combat or not. You simply can't just take a character out of a unit in the magic phase and swap it with another character!

Smoke and Mirrors lets you swap two caracters. Does this conflict with the basic rules? Sure thing!


Regardless of if you are in combat or not, this conflicts with the basic rules!

What to do in that case? Easy! The rules for the spells apply.

See.. its completly irrelevant if you are in combat or not.

[BlackPawl]

Smoke and Mirrors is clearly not movement. It takes place in the magic phase and there is no references to the movement phase or even movement.

By your argument a character in combat cannot fall into a pit of shades if in close combat. O.o

It's really pretty simple. The basic rules wont allow you to swap characters no matter if they are in combat or not. You simply can't just take a character out of a unit in the magic phase and swap it with another character!

Smoke and Mirrors lets you swap two caracters. Does this conflict with the basic rules? Sure thing!


Regardless of if you are in combat or not, this conflicts with the basic rules!

What to do in that case? Easy! The rules for the spells apply.

See.. its completly irrelevant if you are in combat or not.

Why should a character not switch places if he is not in combat?

There is no rule that you have to stay for the rest of the game at one place ("Don't move your character!"). But there is the rule that you have to charge someone to get into contact with him and the rule that you can not leave combat.

When we say that movement which did not occur in the movement phase have not follow the rules for movement, how should we rule the movement of the screaming bell (effect 2-4) in the magic phase, the spells skitterleap, the movement spell from the grey colleage or the movement of undeads in the magic phase?
Did they not follow the rules for movement? This would not make much sense ...


And if the rules for a phase only apply to the phase and not outside of this pase: how do you handle the close combaz attacks made with help of some spells in the magic phase (undead) - would they follow the rules for close combat (even when we say that the attack happens in the magic phase) or not?