Dual kits, stretching the concept too far?

[Makaber]

I like big models. Also, I greatly admire Games Workshop when they manage to create two distinctly different models combined with the same kit.

However, in most (if not all) cases, there's an obvious "main" option, with a nifty alternate version. In the most successful cases, this isn't that noticeable (Tomb King Sphinxes, Vampire Counts Throne/Engine). Unfortunately, it often makes for a poor alternate model (Doomsday Ark), and in the worst cases, so many compromises has to be made, neither option comes out fully successful (Skaven Cannon/Catapult, Ghorgon/Cygor).

However, I feel the dual kit concept has reached a new nadir with the Tervigon/Tyrannofex. The Tervigon itself is pretty sweet, and I thought the Tyrannofex was allright as well, until I read the latest WD at work today (). The Tyrannofex has two defining characteristics: It uses all six limbs for support, and its gun is fused with its torso. And the model caputures exactly none, instead looking like a ham-fisted Tervigon holding a gun. Also, as a side note, for something supposed to be so massive, the huge negative space under its body, where the Tervigon eggsacs go, does it no favours. And the middle legs looks weird.

I'm just thinking maybe they're pushing the dual kit thing too far. At least most times they compromise a little, but here it's like they disregarded the concept of the Codex entry to cut corners. Games Workshop has always claimed to make games to support its models, rather than the other way around, but this makes me wonder. And it's clearly a step in the wrong direction.

[loveless]

Wait...what's wrong with the Doomsday Ark? If anything, I'd say the Ghost Ark is more ridiculous, but both look decent enough for the "modern" Necron style.

The Tyrannofex doesn't really match the original concept, so it might suffer a bit (still looks cool, IMO).

The Skaven Cannon/Catapult is probably the worst offender - two very different warmachines combined into one in an effort to keep costs down. It's very...meh.

I dunno...overall, I'm pretty pleased with the duals.

[Radium]

Also, as a side note, for something supposed to be so massive, the huge negative space under its body, where the Tervigon eggsacs go, does it no favours. And the middle legs looks weird.

I actually thought that was a nice 'missing link' between the Carnifex and the Hierophant Biotitan.

But in general I agree with you, dual kits are not the way to go IMHO. They usually end up looking like the same thing, while meaning to represent vastly different units.

[ashc]

I think they are fine considering the reason for their existence.

[Geep]

Some dual kits are bad (Skaven Warpcannon/ Catapult again being nominated as bad), but I think most work.

I consider the Tervigon/ Tyrannofex to be a good dual kit.
The Tervigon does look quite similar to the concept art, the Tyrannofex looks like a mini-heirophant. The tyrannnofex doesn't really suit the description, but neither does the concept art- the concept art has a beast supported on 4 limbs.
The concept art for both the Tervigon and Tyrannofex is obviously similar- it really is no suprise to me that they share a kit.

[jack da greenskin]

I agree with the OP, but I think there are worse examples. Crypt horrors/vargheists made me go "wtf", but having seen only the vargeists, which I very much liked, I can't comment on whether its a bad use of the dual kit-ness.

Don't get the hate on the WLC/catapault? I think the WLC looks nice on its own, what I consider to be the primary of the kit, sure, its different to the old one, but its still kinda cool (not keen on the funny warpstone chunk), and by turning the A frame around making it look more catapaulty, with the bonus of being able to turn around to get a different looking WLC, which I think is cool and skavenny.

Ogre thundertusk is another example - I dont like either of the monsters, but they're very different.

I think a better solution is like the stegadon kit. Makes 3 different units, but all the same model, so no crappy gimicky secondary model to the kit. (saving room for a bunch of cool bits)

[RevEv]

I agree with the OP, but I think there are worse examples. Crypt horrors/vargheists made me go "wtf",

I'm currently building this kit and am actually chucking the bits for the crypt horrors as they are useless without the bits I've used for the Vargheists. Unlike many dual kits there is nothing I can see I'll use on its own (ie the necromancer from the mortis engine) or as part of a conversion.

[Makaber]

My problem with the Skaven Cannon/Catapult is this: It's clearly a Warp Lightning Cannon primarily, and a Doomclaw Catapult secundarily. However, the cannon doesn't really improve on it's predecessor, and the catapult looks like someone made a catapult using cannon parts. It would have been a much better allocation of resources to just make a dedicated catapult kit, and keeping the old cannon as it was (eventually making it finecast). I guess the cannon would be a little more expensive, but it's not like you need/ought to have more than one of them.

Hell, if you ask me, Skaven don't really need a damn catapult in the first place, in between their cannons, mortars, and flamethrowers.

[Confessor_Atol]

Finecast is never the answer......

[jack da greenskin]

Finecast is never the answer......

QFT. I agree then with the response to my post, but because the majority of people will be using the cannon, its not such a massive problem. That said, we're screwed if in the next skaven dex the catapault becomes good

[JamesR]

Oh, the classic "they did one thing I don't like, therefore GW will probably do everything in the future wrong. Abandon hope all ye who hast witnessed my displeasure with the mid-legs of yon tervigon! GW is doomed! The end is neigh!"

[Gunless Ganger]

Oh, the classic "they did one thing I don't like, therefore GW will probably do everything in the future wrong. Abandon hope all ye who hast witnessed my displeasure with the mid-legs of yon tervigon! GW is doomed! The end is neigh!"

Honestly I didn't get that vibe from this thread at all. It's more just a general discussion of dual kits and what people think of them and if there is a trend towards kits that don't "work" as well.

I like most of the dual kits I've seen. The Ogre Ironblaster/scrap launcher and Stonehorn/thundertusk kits were great IMO.

I'll echo the sentiment of others that the warplightning cannon/catapult looks bad. But I think it just boils down to the sculptor and how they make the model - some you will like, some you won't like but others will. I think. in principle the idea of a rickety platform holding either a cannon or a catapult is not bad - maybe this sculptor just didn't pull it off. Same with the new Tyranid dual kit.

[ArtificerArmour]

Whats wrong with the cygor kit? All that needs is a bit of extra bits, but I reckon both models are great - just the rules are meh.

[ForgottenLore]

I'm with Jack, I don't understand the hate on the skaven cannon/catapult. I just went back and looked at the 360 views of both and I think they look very distinct, if anything the cannon is the lamer looking one, but honestly if someone didn't know the two models were made from the same kit I doubt they would realize it right away just from looking at assembled ones.

As for the Tyrannofex, it sounds more like your problem is that the actual model doesn't match the text description of the creature rather than the model itself. That is more an issue with GW's design process than the fault of dual model kits.

[Makaber]

As for the Tyrannofex, it sounds more like your problem is that the actual model doesn't match the text description of the creature rather than the model itself. That is more an issue with GW's design process than the fault of dual model kits.

No, my overall issue is I feel I'm seeing a trend where they go for dual kit not because it makes sense, but because they can.

Previously, that often led to situations where one or the other variation didn't live up to its full potential because they had to compromise. Everything is subjective, but a good example for me is the Ghorgon, which has a pretty weird back musculature because they had to take into account to two-armed Cygor as well. Or the two Arks, where the Doomsday Ark looks too much like a Ghost Ark turned upside-down (probably because it is). But again, others are free to disgree on the spesifics, though I think we can all agree many of the models would be better (even if they're already pretty good!) if they'd focused on one design instead of accomodating for two.

You're partially right in my reasons for not being a huge fan of the Tyrannofex, but not because it doesn't fit the description per se, but because of what that implies, which is that they're willing to disregard the background in order to get away with making half as many models as they ought to. That, in turn, means sacrificing variety, uniqueness, and artistic integrity. And as someone who collects models because they're pretty, that's a pretty big deal to me.

[Damien 1427]

The thing is, they do this because it's this or we don't get some kits at all. It's about the cost of the molds and the amount of space they have in shops. Whilst it might not be perfect, and we may get some kits that some people think are less than great (Speaking for myself, I quite like the Skaven Cannon/Catapult and the Big Gribbly Nid Things), I'd rather have the choice of it being there and not liking it, than it not being there at all.

[ashc]

The thing is, they do this because it's this or we don't get some kits at all. It's about the cost of the molds and the amount of space they have in shops. Whilst it might not be perfect, and we may get some kits that some people think are less than great (Speaking for myself, I quite like the Skaven Cannon/Catapult and the Big Gribbly Nid Things), I'd rather have the choice of it being there and not liking it, than it not being there at all.

A-Thank you Damien 1427, they have actually done it so they can keep costs of producing new kits down by doubling up on new entries in army books. This is so players get choice, options and new units, whilst also keeping the number of kits on shelves reasonable.

[Tonny]

I quite like the dual kits especially the Black Knight/hexwraith kit. I hope to see something simular with the new empire releases.

[loveless]

I suppose it can be problematic with organics if the joins aren't properly made to accomodate such things as excess limbs...though in the case of the Cygor/Ghorgon, there is Chaos at work

Mechanical kits make sense as dual kits (to the point of, from my perspective, looking like a waste if it doesn't include some options, even if it's just weapon changes). Things tend to share a chassis style - the Arks just rotate it around the center pivot. It still makes sense.

Tyranids - for all their organics - have a rather mechanical nature in constructing their units. Things are made to address a need, and that can often be accomplished just by altering a specific breed into something a bit different. It makes a bit of sense to have similar Tyranid creatures in a size category if the base creature is found suitable by the Hive Mind to both act as a mobile spawning pool and carry about the heavy artillery.

I don't know - I guess from an army standpoint, I expect some things to look similar from a distance...that and I'm rather fond of the Tyrannofex *shrugs*. You're free to your opinion, naturally, I'm just commenting.

[T10]

I mostly agree with the OP on this, though my issue with the dual-kits are those whose core variant are so imilar to each other that making one of each and setting them down side by side becomes... awkward. It actually works better with constructed object such as the warp lighting cannon/plague claw catapult and the screaming bell/plague furnace because they can conceivably have the same industrial base: similar craftsmanship and building materials and design styles make these things ultimately reproducible.

Creatures, on the other hand, are harder to deal with. The High Elf Dragon, while not a dual-kit, is an extreme example of a wonderfully dynamic center-piece model that can be used to represent multiple kinds of creature (well, levels of the same: a dragon). I can't see myself using more than one of these models: It has a wonderfully dynamic poise that looks extremely out-of-place when set beside another with the same! This carries over to other creatures as well: The coven throne/mortis engine, the new zombie dragon/terrorgheist, the gorgon/cygor. The core of these models are freakishly similar: I can't use two of them in the same army.

That being said that doesn't mean I won't get myself "one of each", as it were.

-T10