Next FAQ-? What do you want to see??

[LegioIgnatum]

N810 I am also a LM player yet it is redicilous to say cupped hands is not too good for its cost.

1- the best on a dice roll is 5/6. So yeah I think it is risk free as it can be in Warhammer.
2- not once have I ever failed to bounce it because a wizard was out of LOS. Where are you casting the 7 dice spell? The fast cav on the right most flank?
3- Most of a miscast result means either %50 chance of death, D3 level loss or a large Str10 pie plate.

Maybe I should put it this way "Where is the risk in using the Cupped Hands vs not using it?" I don't see it.

With my suggestion
risk is what if I opponent rolls 5-6,5,8-9 which are relatively harmless hence waste of the item. Small template doesnt cover much when centred on the slann, one S6 hit is meh etc.
I don't know about you but I only bounce it on 1-4 and 11-10 which either kills the enemy highest level wizard half the time or makes him lose D3 levels.

TBO now I feel sad that I have created another 7 dice dweller double dip monster. The shame.... THE SHAAAAMEEEEE :P

[Jind_Singh]

Dear Gamesworkshop....

Please define spells from pre-8th ed books as vortex, direct damage, etc, to clarify gameplay please!!!

PLEASE!!!!

- If the only model in BASE CONTACT is the Unit champion, does this mean that attacks can only be directed at the champion, therefore excess wounds do NOT carry over to the rank & file.....

[LegioIgnatum]

Each to his own I guess. But it cannot be denied that some items/units/spells are over the top.

Just take a look at the lists posted on these very forums.
How many DE list have you seen without Pendant?
How many LM list have you seen without Cupped Hands?
How many OG list have you seen without Hellheart?
How many WOC list have you seen without Puppet?
or etc.

Heck how many lists have you seen without a lvl 4?

New books in 8th are heading on the right direction as there have been only a couple of must have items
-OK(Hellheart)
-VC(Red Fury)
-O&G(Shrunken head maybe??? though it is much softer than the other two)
-TK (none as far as I know)

Same with the uber spells, there are none in 8th ed books

Heck even units are pretty cool other than 1 2 units (incidentilay these are always the new kits. Gee I wonder why :P)
-TK(Warsphinx,Necro Knights)
-VC(Mortis Engine, Crypt Horrors)
-OK(Mournfangs)
-O&G(Savage Orcs)

So the game is heading to a pretty good direction. Lets hope there are no more DOC cases. But GW should not be ashamed of admitting to their mistakes and releasing a major FAQ on a bi-annual/annual basis to bring rules upto date (Warmachine,FOW,Kings of War etc does it all the time). But obviously this will reduce the sales as forcing a Breton or a WE player to buy a new army until their book comes out compared to keeping these armies playable through annual updates will generate more revenues and allow GW to handle their cash flow better. Same with perfecting an edition through updates rather than swinging the power scale from north to south forcing people to buy more models with a new edition every 4 years (called sales boom). (5th heroes->6th monsters->7th cavalry->8th infantry)

As I said I play 2 extremely powerful armies (DE,LM), 1 so-so army (HE) and 1 weak ass army (TK) and I have all the possible models x2 for each of these armies so edition changes do not affect me too much (can jump from army to army or cavalry heavy to inf heavy when I want to win tournies or leagues). But I rather have a more equal playing field where the game is not a forgone conclusion as soon as the armies are set-up.

[N810]

I am just saying that the risk reduces the cost, as it is not a sure thing,
unlike something like the book of Hoteth that works every time and evey turn.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I think it would make more sense to errata it to remove the Ironfist option from Butchers and Slaughtermasters, rather than ruling it that shields don't count as armour. As an Ogre player I would support removing the option, it would make more sense.

Or they could have just errata'd that they can't have magic armour instead of a FAQ that says you can do it but you should feel bad.

Actually what they SHOULD do is simply LIST what kinds of magic items a character can have!

Slaughtermaster: may select up to 100 points of choices from the following categories: Magic Weapon, Enchanted Item, Arcane Item, Talisman.
Bruiser: may select up to 50 points of choices from the following categories: Magic Weapon, Enchanted Item, Magic Armour, Talisman, Big Name. A BSB may instead select a Magic Banner with no points limit but may not select any other Magic Items.

See? Simple and doesn't cause any confusion.

Standard of Discipline - This item alone destroys all combat lords in the game. Everyone complains about combat lords being inneficient in killing etc but the major benefit of the combat lords is the extra pip of LD. This item totally removes that element (which allows combat lords to barely compete with lord level wizards).

It's not the item to be fair but the FAQ. Just say that a unit with the banner cannot use the +1 for Inspiring Presence.

Super Spells - Should definately give lookout to characters. 13th,Dwellers, Gateway would still ruin a deathstars day but none of thse should have the chance of realistically ending the game turn 1, which they do now. If this would affect the game too badly make it so these spells deal D6 wounds to characters rather than instant death so at least lords have 1/3 chance of surviving while heroes would have 1/6 chance of surviving (or D3 wounds but this will make the MI heroes much more survivable so not sure).

I think they need more than this. Really, Purple Sun and Pit are WAY cheaper and more powerful than the equivalent spells in the new army book lores. Many of the rulebook spells are badly costed or overpowered. Compare Flesh to Stone with basic Toothcracker. Clearly the army book lores are more balanced.

Crown of Command - Dunno maybe you guys are right and heroes should be able to take it, but at least make it a talisman so that it cannot be stacked with wardsaves. Heck when I think about it actually this makes more sense as it will eliminate the unkillable char blocking half the army while killing all the characters one by one trick.

The Beastmen book have an upgrade that makes the character stubborn and that's costed at 70 points. I think that seems about right. Still awesome but very hard to fit in.

XXX Strider; Unit does not have to take dangerous terrain tests,can always march thorough them and are not affected by negative effects of XXXs. As it stands now you can take out the strider rule and the game will not change one bit.

It's very useful for some units like cav.

OGRES
I am not trying to destroy the hellheart, and I am all for Ogres having a defence against purple sun/pit, all I am trying to do is make it so that only lords can take it. Didn't any of you guys face the suicide butcher.
-Lvl 1 Butcher + Hellheart
-Turn 1 march
-Turn 2 Leave unit march towards wizards
- Pop Hellheart
- ??
- Profit.

.... No?

Sacrificing a 150 point model for a few miscasts seems dumb. Or I could leave him inside a unit and ram the unit down your throat and not sacrifice the butcher?

The only thing making it 55 points will do is put the final nail in the coffin of the tyrant. I'll still take it, I'll just shuffle items around so the slaughtermaster carries it instead of a butcher. Unfortunately, it'll make fitting both a tyrant and a slaughtermaster from difficult to impossible.

Lizardmen
Cupped Hands- Same thing with the Hellheart, the item is extremely powerful, 7 dice dwellers kills half a unit (maybe some charachters), check if the miscast is bad, if it is, bounce it to the enemy lvl4 to double dip. By making it activate before miscast roll makes the LM player think more (what if I roll a 5-6 or 8-9 which is nothing).

Wait, can you choose not to use the Cupped Hands? It just says "If the bearer miscasts, roll a D6" - nothing about choosing to activate it. I believe it has to be used on the first miscast.

VC and TK
As a TK player I wouldn't want my heroes/lords to gain wounds as they are tough as nails. 5T and 4W for lords and 5T 3W for heroes is already kick ass (though armor is another matter). Vamps already have the hunger and with vampire making a bajillon attacks already guarantees a heal hence already making them tough as nails (please correct me if I am wrong but he rolls a D6 for each wound he inflicts and gets a wound back if any of them are 6 right?).

No, it is a single roll, not one per attack.

As an Ogre general, I have to say that the suggestion of making the Hellheart a 55pts item makes perfect sense for the reasons mentionned above. It's still our only defense against T1/T2 losses against Purple Sun, so removing it because it destroys Vampires isn't fair.

As I said above, I don't see how that changes anything apart from making Tyrants finally too difficult to take.

Where I see the reasons for the Hellheart I also see this scenerio:
Ogres vs Undead

By ogre turn 3 an ogre player can be 36 inches into the battle field-pop goes the heart.
All vamps get a slap, blow chunks in their units, or explode into the warp. (shame one cannot buy the Mage lvl separately )
Lvl4 earthing rod wearers breath easy-maybe. Non earthing rod wearers pee themselves.
Now it is just two armies, but the ability to Nuke an army for less than 100 points is a tad OP.

If the heart could not give the dimensional cascade result I think everyone would be happy.
Of course next turn opponent STill drops initiative test bomb-dunno
Just a thought of course.

Actually, against undead and beastmen dimensional cascades aren't usually that bad. What you really don't want to do is roll an 8-9 result on two wizards. Every wizard takes two S6 hits. BOOM BOOM BOOM. Bad news for 2W wizards with no save.

Off topic but I got some Hellheart karma at the last tournament I went to with my ogres. I went up against another ogre player, he got his hellheart off first - both my butcher and slaughtermaster rolled dimensional cascades

Hellheart is a wonky item. There's a distinct need for ogres to have something like this but it's so random and unpredictable. It's typically not that good, often outright useless but potentially devastating.

I don't get people who say
- Well yeah an item 50pts is our only defense against purple sun.
- Or "Our lords are T3 so we need pendant"
- Or "We need cupped hands otherwise half my temple guard dies"
- Or "We need puppet or enemy magic destroys us"
- Or "We need book of hoeth because all HE infantry have T3"

Well, all of these have a grain of truth to them. Ogres do need a defence against purple sun. Slaan are absurdly vulnerable to miscasts in a way other wizards are not. Elves need something to edge out their heroes and expensive elite infantry being so easy to kill.

That doesn't mean that we need absurdly undercosted items like the pendant, mind, nor does it justify these items as they are. But Slaan need some kind of miscast protection, Ogres need some kind of Psun defence, etc.

Now that I have said that, I would like GW to address the issues most of us have with imba spells, the same way they did with the Power Scroll. A Pit (of Shade) swallowing a Sphinx that is three times bigger than the template is ridiculous, imo.

I agree. Given the extensive errata they have already applied, they could look at addressing the most problematic spells in the rulebook.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Yeah people are advocating that we pry open the Pandora's box. There's no bottom once you tread down that path.
Dwellers, Pit of Shades, Purple Sun. All bring excellent 'spice' to the game. Their impact is exaggerated in the extreme as well. Changing the way they work would be quite a shame, and set the ball in motion prompting further edits that would inevitably water down the whole game.
Oh well..

What "spice" is that? Totalling units (or armies?). It's pretty clear from the 5 Lores that have been published since the release of 8th edition that this "spice" is lacking from their Lores.

I don't think the horror stories of purple sun have been exaggerated. I've seen an ogre army at the ard boyz final (with the old book, how awesome is that?) get totalled by a single purple sun. He lost 2/3 of his 3000 point army to it. It's crap when a general able to fight it through to the finals with bloody old book ogres can lose a game to someone who simply rolled two sixes and a decent range. That's not "spice" that's rubbish.

Having played more than a few games with ogres, I can tell you playing a game where someone 6-dices purple sun every turn isn't "spicy". I don't see why purple sun can't be more like Curse of da bad Moon and pit of shades can't be more like The Maw. Considering very similar casting values, same amount of "spice", yet no-one is complaining about them.

[LegioIgnatum]

Quote Originally Posted by LegioIgnatum View Post
I don't get people who say
- Well yeah an item 50pts is our only defense against purple sun.
- Or "Our lords are T3 so we need pendant"
- Or "We need cupped hands otherwise half my temple guard dies"
- Or "We need puppet or enemy magic destroys us"
- Or "We need book of hoeth because all HE infantry have T3"
Well, all of these have a grain of truth to them. Ogres do need a defence against purple sun. Slaan are absurdly vulnerable to miscasts in a way other wizards are not. Elves need something to edge out their heroes and expensive elite infantry being so easy to kill.

That doesn't mean that we need absurdly undercosted items like the pendant, mind, nor does it justify these items as they are. But Slaan need some kind of miscast protection, Ogres need some kind of Psun defence, etc.

And the things I have mentioned before still allows miscast protection for slann, sun protection for OK etc.

- Target 1 mage (still protects you against the sun)
- Below S of attack (still gives you 3+ against Str 5)
- Activate before miscast roll (still protects the temple guard)
- 1 use only or offensive only (still cascades a mage that miscasts or makes him/her become retarted hence providing magic defense)
- Must reach casting level without mage lvl bonus for irresistable(still allows you to cast 2/3 guaranteed spells but not the skillrazor/skillers below with %100 guarantee )




Sorry no idea how to quote.

[hamsterwheel]

Everyone's opinions on what is over powered or not depends upon what armies they play and who their opponents are. The fact that the casket of souls has no consequences to a miscast is annoying. So is the fact that an empire player can take a level 4, an arch-lector and a warrior priest and have a static 3 dispel dice but still have a +4 to dispel on. Every army tends to have some cheesy combination of things, if they start to remove these, expect every army to lose something then.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Oooh, that's true. There should be some kind of consequence to miscasting with an innate power. An automatic S10 hit or something. That bugs me. Six dicing with a war altar because there's no consequence to miscasting is rather annoying.

[theunwantedbeing]

Oooh, that's true. There should be some kind of consequence to miscasting with an innate power. An automatic S10 hit or something. That bugs me. Six dicing with a war altar because there's no consequence to miscasting is rather annoying.

I thought bound spells were rubbish and were incapable of doing anything good?

[LegioIgnatum]

Unless it is the enemy's bound items. Then they are imba as hell .

[Lord Inquisitor]

I thought bound spells were rubbish and were incapable of doing anything good?

Says who? But it's specifically innate bounds that are cheesy. Particularly ones with access to a whole lore. All the benefits of IF and none of the disadvantages. Regular bound items do have a significant downside to IF - they get destroyed. I've long been of the opinion that should happen to the war altar too.

[DaemonReign]

What "spice" is that? Totalling units (or armies?). It's pretty clear from the 5 Lores that have been published since the release of 8th edition that this "spice" is lacking from their Lores.

I don't think the horror stories of purple sun have been exaggerated. I've seen an ogre army at the ard boyz final (with the old book, how awesome is that?) get totalled by a single purple sun. He lost 2/3 of his 3000 point army to it. It's crap when a general able to fight it through to the finals with bloody old book ogres can lose a game to someone who simply rolled two sixes and a decent range. That's not "spice" that's rubbish.

Having played more than a few games with ogres, I can tell you playing a game where someone 6-dices purple sun every turn isn't "spicy". I don't see why purple sun can't be more like Curse of da bad Moon and pit of shades can't be more like The Maw. Considering very similar casting values, same amount of "spice", yet no-one is complaining about them.

Look I really just like this Game pretty much the way it is. I like the chaos. That you can't control it. I like not knowing what'll happen. I like grand cataclysmic things happening.

Ogres got some strengths and some weaknesses. Sure. I've played alot against Dwarves. Won against them with the Purple Nuke, and also lost against them while still managing to Purple Nuke them. We've all seen "this or that" happening in games, I'm sure. My overall impression though, is still that it's exaggerated.¨

As with most of these complaints. Aside of more often than not simply missing the 'essence' of the game (oh you might scoff at the notion, but it's what made this game great balance-fascist tournament-players can grind their teeth all the want) it's mostly exaggeration.

Pendant is awesome - thus the added sweetness whenever you manage to still bash that elven lord's head in. And so on. Changing the P-scroll was a giant cop-out. Taking cheap-shots at whatever Army List you happen to have problems with just adds to bad attitudes floating around, compounded like nowhere else right Here on Warseer for some reason.

So yeah.. I respectfully disagree.

[Moonstone_Fellblade]

Dear Gamesworkshop....

Please define spells from pre-8th ed books as vortex, direct damage, etc, to clarify gameplay please!!!

PLEASE!!!!

- If the only model in BASE CONTACT is the Unit champion, does this mean that attacks can only be directed at the champion, therefore excess wounds do NOT carry over to the rank & file.....

This.
I take it you've had trouble with Brets as well Jind?

[Lord Inquisitor]

- If the only model in BASE CONTACT is the Unit champion, does this mean that attacks can only be directed at the champion, therefore excess wounds do NOT carry over to the rank & file.....

Is this even up for debate? The rulebook clearly states you have to allocate against enemies with different profiles and that wounds allocated against the champion do not spill over...

So yeah.. I respectfully disagree.

Fair enough. I feel that there has to be a discord between the rulebook lores and the army book lores. The comparison between, say, Pit and Maw are laughable. Either the rulebook lores are too good, too spicy, or the armybook lores suck in comparison, not spicy enough.

[DaemonReign]

[COLOR="#EE82EE"]

Fair enough. I feel that there has to be a discord between the rulebook lores and the army book lores. The comparison between, say, Pit and Maw are laughable. Either the rulebook lores are too good, too spicy, or the armybook lores suck in comparison, not spicy enough.

I think it's background-related actually. Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, well let's face it, they're 'knuckleheads' compared to the more refined cultures amongst races in Warhammer. I sincerely believe that's a big part of it. At least as big a part as, say, GW Design going 'holy moly, whatever we do no more no-saves-of-any-kind spell!' I think it makes perfect sense that their wizardry just isn't as good as some of the BrB Lores (let alone Daemons, WoC, High Elves, Lizardmen etcetera). The strength of these races (hopefully) reside elsewhere - be it numbers, brute force, whatever.

There's a pretty neat symbology in the fact that two 'big' über-spells are found in the diametrically opposed Lores of Life and Death. I'm sure you see what I am getting at. Sure, LoShadows don't allow saves either but other parts of its mechanics makes it just a tad less grand compared to Dwellers/P-Sun.

Well just my two cents on that. I don't think we've got enough books for 8th to know just yet whether those 'imba' spells will even be completely unique to the BrB Lores. I think they will be, though, and again: Not because GW thinks they were a mistake, but because of the whole "Life and Death" thing I mentioned earlier.

[Von Wibble]

Is this even up for debate? The rulebook clearly states you have to allocate against enemies with different profiles and that wounds allocated against the champion do not spill over...


Fair enough. I feel that there has to be a discord between the rulebook lores and the army book lores. The comparison between, say, Pit and Maw are laughable. Either the rulebook lores are too good, too spicy, or the armybook lores suck in comparison, not spicy enough.

I think they are learning to an extent - they saw the rulebook lores were too good and at least aren't repeating this with the army books.

My preferred FAQ issues / erratas

1) Clarify spell types and targetting allowed for older spells.

2) Allow skirmishers their rank bonus in combat. The only unit that actually benefits from this much is Dryads but it would give wood elves a chance long term to be able to keep skirmish without being punished for it.

3) Another vote on banner of discipline, though I would also be happy to see it just go up to 60 points.

4) Reverse ruling on flame cannon.

5) Allow all bsbs full access to equipment (older books don't have this currently)



Daemonreign - I'd accept that pont about life and death if it were restricted more. But given that most armies, including the primitive ogres, have access to one or the other, I can't see that logic. Also, the fluff would surely indicate dark magic is the easiest route to power so this should have killer spells. Do you really think these should be more powerful than the rulebook lores?

[GrimmHammer]

as always fix the salamanders.

[The bearded one]

Off topic but I got some Hellheart karma at the last tournament I went to with my ogres. I went up against another ogre player, he got his hellheart off first - both my butcher and slaughtermaster rolled dimensional cascades

I had that at a doubles tournament recently; the ogre obviously carrying the hellheart was approaching, my and my teammate fled off with our skink priests and managed to get 25 inches away from him. Then the ogre rolled a 5 for distance, my and my teammate both rolled dimensional cascades and my priest died.

Slaan are absurdly vulnerable to miscasts in a way other wizards are not.

..

But Slaan need some kind of miscast protection,

Slann damnit, Slann

3) Another vote on banner of discipline, though I would also be happy to see it just go up to 60 points.

Wow, 60 points? Really? At least make it 50 so that it'll fit on unitstandards, but merely be really expensive.

4) Reverse ruling on flame cannon.

yes please.

[theunwantedbeing]

I had that at a doubles tournament recently; the ogre obviously carrying the hellheart was approaching, my and my teammate fled off with our skink priests and managed to get 25 inches away from him. Then the ogre rolled a 5 for distance, my and my teammate both rolled dimensional cascades and my priest died.

So...if you get stupidly unlucky with an item the enemy has, it is broken as hell and needs nerfing to buggery.
However...
If an item is unlucky itself and does nothing then that is to be ignored utterly.

Or are we all just hating on the Hellheart now seeing as GW ruined the Ring of Hotek so we haven't got anything to whinge about because apparently anything Tzeentch is fine?