Help me decide on an list.

[Tordeck]

Warmachine list has been decided. Just need to finalize hordes.

The only difference is that list two replaces the Argus and war wolf with a winter Argus.


Circle Orboros – Call of the Wild Tier 2 – 35pts
Heavy Warbeasts gain Advance Deployment
Warpborn Skinwalkers gain Advance Move

eKaya & Laris +3

Argus 4(1)

Gorax 4

Feral Warpwolf 9

Warpwolf Stalker 10

Warpborn Skinwalkers (L+2) 5

Warpborn Skinwalkers (L+2) 5

War Wolf 1

13 models

or

eKaya & Laris +3

Winter Argus 5 (2)

Gorax 4

Feral Warpwolf 9

Warpwolf Stalker 10

Warpborn Skinwalkers (L+2) 5

Warpborn Skinwalkers (L+2) 5

12 Models
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cygnar - Sons of the Tempest Tier 4 – 35pts
Arcane Gun Mage Units FA U, -1pt per
Free Gun Mage UA, does not count to FA
+1 to starting role
Caine and Gun Mage Unit/Models gain Stealth for Turn 1

pCaine +6

Cyclone 9 (3)

Tempest Gun Mage (L+5) 6(5)
Officer 2(0)
Hunter 6

Tempest Gun Mage (L+5) 6(5)
Officer 2
Hunter 6

Black 13th (L+2) 4

Gun Mage Captain 2

Gun Mage Captain 2

21 Models

[Mr. Mayhem]

Well, if you're heartset on those lists with no intention of changing anything in them, probably the EVlad and EKaya lists can operate most efficiently (closer to how they would w/o restrictions) given the themed force and model restrictions listed here. Were I to choose I'd go with the Khador, as it's more balanced for a variety of opponents and scenarios.

[Tordeck]

Not hardset on those particular lists but I am hardset on the fact that it has to have a relatively low model count and be tiered. Those were just the ones that seemed to fit those requirements the best from my perspective.

so far ive been told that in no particular order i should choose from

circle
khador
cygnar
cyrx
mercs

based off my above lists.

[Mr. Mayhem]

If you're not that invested in any particular faction (short of the ones you listed as not particularly liking) or warcaster/warlock, I have some recommendations for good, low model count, 35 point, tier 3 minimum themed forces.

Gunbjorn +5 - Tier 3
Bomber x 2 (18)
Impaler (5)
Pygmy Burrowers (6)
Thumper x 2 (6)
Whelps (2)
Fellcaller (3)

I played varients of this list a fair amount and the dual Bombers with Guided Fire are awesome. If you opponent rushes you with infantry to jam you up, try to get your Burrowers to intercept them, even if they run in and then feat with Gunbjorn (making your stuff immune to blast damage) and have the Bombers clean up their jammers. The Fell Caller is mostly there to make the Burrowers MAT 6, but he is also a weapon master with 2 attacks and has a RAT 6 spray to contribute. Additionally, he can stand up knocked down things, though GBs feat makes your stuff steady. Whelps are pretty important, as you're most likely going have at least 3 fury on your Bombers each turn from boosting the damage on both attacks (presuming they hit) and buying a second shot.

Calandra +5 - Tier 3
Earthborn (10)
Axer (6)
Slag Troll (6)
Burrowers (6)
Scouts (5)
Fell Caller (3)
Chronicler (2)
Whelps (2)

Calandra is generally awesome, especially with some Burrowers in tow. If you've got something particularly important to kill, buff them with the Fell Caller and Charge of the Trolls from the Chronicler and run, say, the Axer up to engage the target and they'll have effectively MAT 8 POW 16 and 10 melee attacks, with Calandra's Fate Blessed rerolls and perhpas with her feat rerolls as well. The Slag provides a sometimes needed/never unwanted damage buff animus and his ranged attacks do an additional die against non-living things (warjacks, undead, wolds, most battle engines, etc.) which means when boosted thats 4 dice of damage. The best part is that if you roll, say 1, 2, 2, 4 on the damage roll you can almost always reroll it to partically guarantee a good chunk of damage. Everything else in the list pretty much speaks for itself.

Borka + 5 - Tier 3
Mauler (9)
Axer (6)
Max. Champions + Skaldi (13)
Scouts x 2 (10)
Chronicler

Advance and kill things.

Motenebra + 4 - Tier 4
Deathjack (11)
Harrower (9)
Slayer x 2 (10)
Ripjaw (5)
Siren x 2 (4)

or

Mortenenbra +5
Leviathan (8)
Seether (8)
Slayer x 3 (15)
Deathripper (4)
Siren x 2 (4)

or whatever variation you like really. I recommend an arc node to throw out Void Gate and to occasionally recast upkeeps from stuff that died or that was removed via Eiryss. The spells are all quite straight forward and nasty.

PDeneghra + 5 - Tier 4
Leviathan (9)
Slayer (6)
Deathripper/Nightwretch x 2 (8)
Stalker (4)
Helldiver (3)
Ripjaw (free)
Pistol Wraith x 2 (6)
Siren x 2 (4)

Again, a no brainer. Debuff and destory them. Some seem to think that there are too many jacks in this list, but PDeny makes anything work and infantry (as great as the Cryx ones are) really aren't needed.

EHaley +5 - Tier 4 (Storm Bringers)
Storm Clad (10)
Thorn (8)
Storm Tower (2)
Storm Smith (free)
Storm Strider x 2 (18)
Strangeways (2)

As usual, the Stormclad is bonded for movement + TK craziness and the fully loaded Storm Striders blast everything that's not immune to electric damage.

[paddyalexander]

Do you mind me asking why themed & why to tier 3?

[Dais]

If you had to take one of those in the op I would say go with Shae or eVlad.
You might want to adjust your jack load in that merc list to max out the sea dogs, or at least give meg one of the mariners. It's still the best one in your post to me though.
eKaya t4 is amazing as well but stopping at t2 doesn't do it for me - her theme list feels very all or none to me since the tiers are so easy to get and so good.
Mr. Mayhem has some good recommendations too.

P.S. DO NOT try and play Amon's tier list, that can only lead to heartbreak.

[Tordeck]

Do you mind me asking why themed & why to tier 3?

I like fuffy armies. this goes for every game system I play. competitive is nice but it takes a back seat to fluff


Mr Mayhem - thank you, that was very informative. I will probably end up with both a Hordes and a Warmachine army and you just made Trolls sound like a very good choice for the Hordes end

[Tort]

I can only talk about the factions I play

Caine1 - Marshal your hunters. They get the rune shot ability and won't be a constant strain on Caine's resources. I'd probably take a defender ahead of a cyclone as it gives you better melee options and the cyclone will deal more with infantry and you have plenty that will aready do that.

Bethaine - Don't take Carniveans with her. They are overpriced, for two points less a Scythean will do the same job and has 1.5" greater threat range (Carnivore and the thresher are an awesome combination too, forces your opponent to keep his jacks/beasts well clear of his troops). You really want to get at least one of those units of hex hunters to max and take bayal at well. That's going to give you 26 or so models. If you want a really good small everblight 35 point theme force try Absylonia, or Vayl2 (epic Vayl)

Shae - needs more pirates. All of those Mariners need to be loaded and your wasting the benefits from your solos. A Shae list that works at all at 35 points is going to have 30+ models.

Trollbloods - Thumpers are awful, bushwackers are awful and the blitzer is the worst of the heavy beasts. Gunnbjorn... some people find him fun, I don't; I don't like gunline armies. He's definitely one of the less competitive troll casters. This list will struggle.

My suggestions:
Cygnar - Caine with the changes I suggested. or:

Cygnar
Charge of the Storm Brigade (Lord Commander Stryker)
(Tier 4)
PCs: 35 / 35
25 models

[00] Lord Commander Stryker (0 / 6 WJ remaining)
[02] >> Squire
[09] >> Stormclad
[09] >> Stormclad
[05] Major Katherine Laddermore
[05] Stormblade Infantry
[00] >> Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard (Free (3 pc) & FA)
[03] >> Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (3 Gunners)
[05] Stormblade Infantry
[03] >> Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (3 Gunners)

Legion of Everblight
Machinations of Shadow (Vayl, Consul of Everblight)
(Tier 4)
PCs: 35 / 35
14 models

[00] Vayl, Consul of Everblight (0 / 6 WB)
[09] >> Ravagore
[08] >> Scythean
[08] >> Angelius
[08] >> Angelius
[02] >> Harrier
[02] >> Shredder
[01] Blighted Nyss Shepherd
[01] Blighted Nyss Shepherd
[02] Spawning Vessel (4 grunts)

Mercenaries
Most Wanted (Magnus the Traitor)
(Tier 4)
PCs: 35 / 35
21 models

[00] Magnus the Traitor (0 / 6 WJ remaining)
[08] >> Mangler
[05] >> Renegade
[05] >> Renegade
[05] >> Vanguard
[02] Gorman Di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist
[06] Steelhead Halberdiers (9 grunts)
[10] Steelhead Heavy Cavalry (4 grunts)

Trollbloods
Rune's of War (Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls)
(Tier 4)
PCs: 35 / 35
23 models

[00] Hoarluk Doomshaper, Shaman of the Gnarls (0 / 7 WB)
[12] >> Mulg the Ancient
[10] >> Earthborn Dire Troll
[03] Janissa Stonetide
[04] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (5 grunts)
[01] >> Stone Scribe Elder
[03] Trollkin Runeshapers
[03] Trollkin Runeshapers
[03] Trollkin Runeshapers
[03] Trollkin Runeshapers

I also play gators but I've only played a handful of games so I will decline to comment.

[Tordeck]

note I do not have access to any No Quarter so if a unit is not in the faction book i have no idea what it does.

When i wrote the lists i did so in order of how they appeared in the book. i fully intended to marshal the hunters to the AGM. The Defender is an option. Cyclone maybe a hold over from my first attempt at a Cyg list which was Sloan Gunslingers

Legion is out. Mercs I want to stay to the Pirates end both for fluff and I have enough Seaforge, pMaggy and Highborn in my meta.

[Tort]

The issue with pirates is that they want a fair bit of troops. If you want to keep it around 20 models the pirates lose a lot of what makes them good, Shae's theme list is excellent but best with at least two units + all the solos. Calandra's theme list is OK but no Mulg, no Janissa, missing a lot of the better troll troops. Most theme lists are traps, the benefits aren't worth the restrictions but there are some that are really good. The restrictions don't mean that much because it's close to what you want anyway and the benefits are really good. I've tried to stick to those kinds of theme forces and those that match your criteria.

I find the trolls to be very characterful in general. Borka with stumbling drunk with his champs and Skaldi. The whelps which your dire trolls eat to control their fury, dire trolls and snacking. They're meant to be a close knit community group and they play like that.

[Deadnight]

I like fuffy armies. this goes for every game system I play. competitive is nice but it takes a back seat to fluff

tiers do not necessarily equal "fluff". a butcher man 'o' war army is not necessarily any more thematic than butcher with winter guard. anything goes in this game. this is not 40k which has a meme of "you need to play this army this way" to be right and fluffy. stop thinking that there is a line between "fluffy" armies, and "competitive" armies.

honestly, if you like the models, field them. if you like a theme run with it, but dont think it has to be an "official" theme. I play tharn heavy circle, because thats what appeals to me. ie Kromac, furry warbeasts and all manner of tharn. his theme specifies ravagers, but i see no reason not to field wolf riders, blood trackers etc as part of my lists as i adore the models. there is nothing wrong with a Vlad Iron Fang themed army if those are the models you like.

its all good. it all makes sense in-world, so dont get hung up on how you "need" to build an army a certain way for it to be "right".

[RandomThoughts]

I like fuffy armies. this goes for every game system I play. competitive is nice but it takes a back seat to fluff

tiers do not necessarily equal "fluff".

I fully agree with Deadnight on this one.

The tiers, from what I understand, are supposed to simulate armies that each Caster lead into a single, very specific battle once. Think of it like "back in the engagement at the Willowwood, Lieutentant Caine was stuck with nothing but a few scattered Long Gunner units he had rallied and the Warjacks currently under repair at the local blacksmith, together with the mechanics working on them. However, he gained advantages from high ground and attacking in the early hours of the morning allowed him to catch the opponent by surprise.

For me personally, it's not so much fluff but aesthetics. I strive to only field models I like, with some unifiying themes across the whole army. Sometimes I get lucky (my choices for Cryx were pDeneghra, Banethralls, and Nyss hunters, with two cheap Bonejacks and a solo or two thrown in, and it turned out to be an incredibly powerful list), other times not so much (I'm still struggling with most of my Cygnar lists, even though I did kind of hit a sweet spot last night with pHaley, Gunmages, Stormsmiths, Ogrun Assault Corps and a Defender - the Defender is pretty much the only model I'd rather replace with something else (a Cyclone, as I love the look of it), but it does kind of feel necessary to deal with high ARM targets. I did have a Stormclad in there before, which is like THE BIG BEAT-STICK we have (in capitals), but after I swapped out my Stormblades, it felt a bit unfluffy to keep it, so I decided to try something else, and the Defender naturally came up.

What I'm trying to say is, it is possible to build fluffy lists in WM, but that doesn't automatically mean you have to run tiers. For me it's more like don't run Trencher artillery without Trencher infantry, don't run Winterguard artillery without Winterguard infantry, don't run a Winter Guard warcaster (eSorscha) without Winter Guard infantry, don't run a Stormclad without Stormblades, don't run didicated character jacks with different casters, use the character jacks when you use their caster, etc.

But that's just my opinion.
Regards
RT

[Mr. Mayhem]

Mr Mayhem - thank you, that was very informative. I will probably end up with both a Hordes and a Warmachine army and you just made Trolls sound like a very good choice for the Hordes end

Trolls are my primary faction so it's easy to go on about them. Here's some insight to the only other Troll themed force I like.

EDoomshaper + 6 - Tier 4
Mulg (11)
Earthborn (9)
Max. Champions (10)
Scouts (5)
Whelps x 2 (4)
Runerbearer (2)

While ideal at 50 pts (and something to aim towards), EDoomshaper is all about speeding up his beasts, sending them flying in to destroy stuff and having them moving away again. His feat will give the Earthborn a 11.5" threat range (more if it begins it's activation near rough terrain and get +2 SPD) and Mulg a 12" threat range. The beasts can expertly stick and move with Refuge on them, especially on the feat turn when after beating on something they can move somewhere between 7-10" away, ignoring free strikes. If there's no way to maneuver them to a safe, counter-charge free spot, just move them back and intervene the Champions between whatever's threatening them. The Runebearers once per game Spell Slave ability lets you toss Refuge onto both beasts, as if Doomshaper goes first there's no way he can give to the second one. Wild Aggression is also a stellar spell, just not one that helps your beasts survive (other than by killing what might threaten them :P ). Mulg is great with Doomshaper due to the affinity and being able to use Goad with a reach weapon is amazing (especially when you've got Wild Aggression up!), but the Earthborn is essential as the themed force is limited to Dire Trolls only, meaning no Axer to give out the Pathfinder that the EB has naturally. Trust me, it really sucks when the caster/lock you want to crush is standing 2 1/4" behind a wall and you can't go snack on it because you don't have Pathfinder. Another cool thing EDoomshaper offers is a pseudo channeling ability in the spell Primal Shock, which lets you fire POW 12/13 magic attacks from your beasts.

[Tordeck]

Ok so with all the suggestions in mind (thank you all btw) and taking into account, fluff, models, model count and over all draw Ive narrowed it down to 3 factions. Circle, Cygnar, and Khador (yes I realize ive just picked both sides of a war)

Reasonings-

Circle - its werewolves for christ's sake whats not to love?
Cygnar - very shooty, like the tri-point hats
Khador - Vlad, mix of hitty and shooty. war dogs are awesome, Vlad