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Thread: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

  1. #21

    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Khorne isn't about killing. "Killing" is not an emotion. Physical decay is certaintly not an emotion, you can SEE it.

    All the killing and rotting are symptoms of the emotion(s) which drive each god.
    You can't be rage incarnate without acting on it and slaughtering things. You can't be despair incarnate without causing it somehow.

    You can argue for a specific word although most are just synonyms, or if there are secondary emotions mixed in.
    Hope is just opposite to Nurgle's being though, there is no hope against incurable disease or aging. Is nurgle being hope actually supported in any warhammer related writing anywhere? I wouldn't have thought that this MASSIVE BOOK OF CHAOS LORE I have right here would be fairly authoritative? I'm just paraphrasing GW's stuff in my arguments here you see.

    A more interesting discussion would be getting THE emotion or set of emotions right for each god as there are so many similar words...

  2. #22
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendarion View Post
    Yea, but how would you call this "wants the pain to stop"? Isn't that hope? And to be even more picky, isn't that hope for a change?
    The relation between Nurgle and Tzeentch is very tricky when it comes to feelings. GW has defined them well about "Plagues & Suffering" and "Change & Magic", but the thing about the feelings is actually something that is quite difficult.
    As I and other have tried to point out, though the feelings might not be so much different, the origins of these clearly are. If you suffer, you hope to flee from it through Nurgle. If you want more power and hope to triumph your fate, you are going directly into Tzeentch's hands.
    Well with Nurgle I think of it more as giving up the struggle against their pain. I don't know if you have meet many people with depression but they don't really have hope, sure they want things to change but they are at a loss of what to do and tend to be their own worst enemy. This is how I imagine people would fall to nurgle in 40k. The difference to me is that people that fall to nurgle have had the final straw break the camels back, where as people who fall to tzeentch tend to have their innocent ambitious intentions for a better future manipulated against them. Nurgle=Nihilism, Tzeentch=Optimism

    I agree it's a fine line, but you could say the same about slaanesh worshipers 'hoping' for beauty, talent or wealth and Khorne worshipers 'hoping' to be great warriors and 'hoping' for their enemies heads to pop off Chaos and the warp in general are all about change.

  3. #23

    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    I remember that each of the chaos entities had a positive and negative aspect. But its the negative that remains prevalent. I think they were something like this

    Khorne = Martial Honour vs Rage
    Nurgle = Life vs Decay and Despair
    Slaneesh = Beauty vs Lust
    Tzeentch = Change and growth vs Uncontrolled Mutation

  4. #24
    Chapter Master Hendarion's Avatar
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisb3 View Post
    Khorne isn't about killing. "Killing" is not an emotion. Physical decay is certaintly not an emotion, you can SEE it.
    I knew there would be someone not seeing the relation. Blood for the Bloodgod, Skulls for his throne. I wonder how you wanna achieve that without killing. Maybe the comparison is more clear now?
    But maybe next time you can tell Khorne Berserkers: "Eh, you won our dual, you're better than I am, I admit it. But Khorne isn't about killing, so walk away in peace."


    I think BaronGustav kinda managed to say better what I meant all the time
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  5. #25

    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendarion View Post
    I knew there would be someone not seeing the relation. Blood for the Bloodgod, Skulls for his throne. I wonder how you wanna achieve that without killing. Maybe the comparison is more clear now?
    But maybe next time you can tell Khorne Berserkers: "Eh, you won our dual, you're better than I am, I admit it. But Khorne isn't about killing, so walk away in peace."


    I think BaronGustav kinda managed to say better what I meant all the time
    Not sure what your point is, I said this myself.

    What part of killing requires you to pile up the skulls exactly?

  6. #26
    Chapter Master El_Machinae's Avatar
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    If it was merely about rage and bloodlust, we could have clerics whose claim-to-fame was Streetfighter videogame expertise.
    Until I'm PM'd with better ideas, I suggest that this is the best pro-active transhumanist charity opportunity for this decade.
    Alternatively, for those with mechanical talent and ideas.
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  7. #27

    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Khorne is rage (causing war/death/blood) and pride (causing piles of skulls and skull thrones) imo.

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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Khorne is rage, and everything stemming from it: killing, fighting, physical strength, the urge to dominate, and at the far end of the spectrum, martial honour and pride, etc. etc.

    As said, Nurgle is more about finding accepting misery than seeking relief from it. As with Khorne, the other urges stem from and are refinements of the core emotion: Despair, and so fear, stasis, resentment, fear of change, self-delusion and extreme conservatism.
    Last edited by ryng_sting; 15-03-2012 at 22:07.
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  9. #29
    Chapter Master El_Machinae's Avatar
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    So, me wanting to see aging cured is Khornate, and those suggesting that age-related degeneration and death is 'natural' are Nurglites?
    Until I'm PM'd with better ideas, I suggest that this is the best pro-active transhumanist charity opportunity for this decade.
    Alternatively, for those with mechanical talent and ideas.
    My goal, to get us up a level. How? Just wait? Nuh uh.

  10. #30

    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by El_Machinae View Post
    So, me wanting to see aging cured is Khornate, and those suggesting that age-related degeneration and death is 'natural' are Nurglites?
    Nurglites would be resigned to the fact that all things decay and die?

  11. #31
    Chapter Master Jack of Blades's Avatar
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronGustav View Post
    Slaneesh = Beauty vs Lust
    Which one is supposed to be the negative?
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroTwentythree View Post
    I just wish skaven had something "heavy hitter"-ish.

    1000 year-old lords of the walking dead? Chosen avatars of the dark gods leading horrible creatures from another dimension? Ancient members of the civilization who created the very world upon which we wage our wars? Bah! We're skittish mutant rats. We've got a bell. And we're going to ring it till your ears hurt bleed. Bitches.

  12. #32

    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack of Blades View Post
    Which one is supposed to be the negative?
    Slaanesh is excess/lust - taking things to extremes. Doesn't just have to be sex, the other Chaos Gods are all worried by Slaanesh because their own excesses feed him.

    Khorne is the most powerful and usualy ascendant. Tzeetch is second and can easily swap with Khnore after a good plot. Nurgle is much weaker but occasionally a plague will grow so strong that he will overpower the others. Slaanesh is the weakest but his being fed by the others and so will one day eclipse them all.

  13. #33
    Chapter Master Hendarion's Avatar
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisb3 View Post
    Not sure what your point is, I said this myself.

    What part of killing requires you to pile up the skulls exactly?
    You are twisting things now. I said you need to kill to pile up skulls. And the slogan "Blood for the Blood God and skulls for his throne" is not my invention, it is the most famous one from GW regarding Khorne cultists.
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  14. #34

    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendarion View Post
    You are twisting things now. I said you need to kill to pile up skulls. And the slogan "Blood for the Blood God and skulls for his throne" is not my invention, it is the most famous one from GW regarding Khorne cultists.
    What am I twisting? When did I say that you had invented those things (you kind of did invent that slogan because that isn't what the cultists say! lol)?

    You said that khorne is all about killing, I'm saying that all chaos gods are about the strong emotions which formed them. Killing is not an emotion, it is a side effect of rage/bloodlust.
    I provided an example of classic khorne behaviour which is nothing to do with killing at all, khorne must be at least part pride for his followers to try and pile up more skulls than the others.

    Whole reason why we went down this road is the claim that Nurgle is hope, I continue to read the liber nurgle and it's despair reference after despair reference. This stuff isn't a thing for personal interpretation and logic when we have lots of written lore to cite.

  15. #35
    Chapter Master Hendarion's Avatar
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisb3 View Post
    You said that khorne is all about killing
    No, I didn't. I said that saying "Khorne is not about killing" would be wrong. Killing is not an emotion, that's right. Still you need to kill in order to satisfy some of the emotions which fuel Khorne and to fulfil the slogan "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!". Sorry if I quoted it wrong the first time, I just translated the German version into English and seems the translation GW uses isn't the same as the original version. (btw, hinting at a slightly wrong quote is rather picky imo)

    Anyway, I'm bored and tired of that, so I simply say you're right and now you can make a winner-dance.
    Last edited by Hendarion; 18-03-2012 at 07:43.
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  16. #36

    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Well we are basically saying the same thing now so I don't know what your objection is. I'm not interested in arguing semantics about double negatives apparently totally changing the meaning of something...
    Last edited by Chrisb3; 18-03-2012 at 14:10.

  17. #37
    Veteran Sergeant lovelessmerc's Avatar
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    I think James Swallow has nailed the whole falling to chaos thing in the short story The Returned. Well the doom eagle is tempted by visions of the four gods and when the vison of nurgle comes to him and delivers his fate causing him to doubt himself and saying in your darkest hour at the hands or bile you called out for salvation and I was waiting, the doom eagle hardly even rembers and can hardly believe nor dispute such claim as false memories come spilling in. A very easy way to fall to chaos as chaos needs just that one doubt that one chink in the armor of contempt, to take root. Aka mass chaos betrayals in the guard and populace. The sickness of the soul that travels faster than any plauge.

  18. #38
    Chapter Master stormblade's Avatar
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    Re: This ''ascendance'' spoken of in The First Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendarion View Post
    No, I didn't. I said that saying "Khorne is not about killing" would be wrong. Killing is not an emotion, that's right. Still you need to kill in order to satisfy some of the emotions which fuel Khorne and to fulfil the slogan "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!".
    Well, technically you can get blood through donations or stealing and skulls from the already dead people (cemeteries, museums etc.) but that wouldn't be something 'people' in 40k would consider doing I guess.
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