What to do with tactical marines? (complete 40k n00b)

[ChickenMacNugget]

Hey everybody!

This is going to be a thread FILLED with n00b questions.... Sorry if this has been posted similarly elsewhere. I'm just starting a (pretty much) salamanders army and I have some questions about how to generally play this kinda army (basically centred around what to do with tactical squads.)

I recently posted up an army list that got some discussion:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...anilla-marines

The basic jist of that list was that I have 3, 10 man tacitcal squads, in rhino's, with a meltagun and combi melta in each squad, so that they get a nice benefit from the twin-linked-ness from vulkan

This leads me to n00b question number 1... How should I use tactical squads? I mean as a space marine player. I've read plenty of army tactics but most centre around what NOT to talk in a competitive game, rather than how to actually play the units. Is there any links to really good "how to use your tactical squads to their best use" articles?

I know that most of the time I'm going to be shooting at other MEQ units, Maybe sometimes using another unit/tank to pop a tank/transport to get to the delicious troops inside, followed by the tacticals shooting at the troops or alternatively taking a second volley at the tank with the melta in the squad to pop it. (Is that actually what I should do?)

Another question is, where do I deploy? A general play in my head is that the rhino moves up with most of my army, popping smoke to avoid easy destruction and getting to around 12" of the enemy, then disembarking and firing rapid fire (is that legal after disembarking?) and meltas at something. Is that the distance I should be trying to shoot from? (just under 12") I think it would open me up for being assaulted the next round if my opponent has a CC army... or any sense if they do some damage in that first volley. But I take it that tacticals are somewhat of a tarpit/throw away/objective holding/anvil to my stronger units... unit.

As you can probably tell, I'm not very versed in the tactics of 40k, I used to play when I was around 16... and that was for a very short time, with little more than "move everything up and hit the enemy in the face" CSM army. Also, apologies for what is probably a very ranting post, I'm just kind of writing out loud, as it were.

Thanks for reading, and hopefully posting a reply. I know the tactics are "day one" stuff, but I haven't really had a "day one" experience yet.

[Crimson Templar]

You are right in that you are going to get a lot of Tac squad hate. I love mine and I almost always field 3 in a game. The thing is, they are a jack of all trades master of none squad. I have not played a Vulcan list, but I would not take combi melta for a start. I would take combi-flamers to help with anti hoard. With the rerolls for melta, a melta gun in each squad is probably all taht is needed. Depending on the mission I play I either hold one squad or one combat squad back to camp on an objective. Since this squad will be a target for your opponent, I would protect them in some way. I find that my tactical squads work best at mid field so I usually disembark and try to engage one enemy unit with two tacs at once in order to have a high enough volume of fire to destroy the target unit. It also needs to be mentioned that Tac squads almost always end up on some sort of melee. They are not a melee unit!! However, I do like to keep a powerfist or power weapon on my vet to make sure that there are some non-savable wounds that can be caused.

I need to think some more on the subject of actuall tactics, but a non-hate filled tactical squad tactica would be pretty cool.

[blurrymadness]

First; on the list I'd add lascannons to the pred and outfit the dreads with autocannons.

If the option is between Bolter and Multi-Melta, take the Multi-Melta as that'll give you a chance to pop some armor or get that extra Death or Glory against a vehicle pushing you off an objective.


To play with them you'll want them stowed away in their metal boxes, hopefully not taking fire. When the time comes *combine fire* and take out whole enemies. You have an advantage on some armies of Force Concentration; I.E. you can fit a lot of points in a small area of the board. Do it. This is also called (in the extreme case) the Denied Flank. Basically being they're:
*your only Scoring Units
*only "ok" point for point. They can do it all but they aren't prime combatants

It depends on the mission, opponent, and terrain. Take the Combi-Melta, Melta, Multi-Melta probably. It gives ok static shooting, and good potential to kill a tank. If you need to take out infantry then again use all the squads in conjunction with one another to try and annihilate them. Combi-flamer is also good but is situational and unlikely to be as much of a use as your melta.

Use them to support weak points in your force rather than have them be the front line. Further, unsure which Land Raider you took; if you took the standard then sit back blasting the enemy and charge an elite unit when it becomes a threat. Use dreads to tie up large squads or eat whatever they can. If you go double autocannon then sit as far back as possible walking away from the enemy, pounding the enemy from afar.



Back to tacticals; they're a do it all squad:
-Use them together
-Fill in gaps in your force
-Keep them alive

Also; split them into combat squads in Scoring missions as a heavy squad and a double special squad. This makes it more difficult for assault armies to eat you, makes it likely that people will overkill squads (i.e. waste shots) and double your scoring units to 6. Also it means that if you go on a "suicide mission" of meltaing something dangerous you only lose 5 marines out of the deal, not 10.

[Details]

3 ways to use tacticals

5 man squad, combi-something, las/plas razorback. Can be used as a backfield scoring unit or your main focus in a razorspam list. This was a trendy setup a few years ago and is still decent. Space Wolves and Blood Angels do razorspam better, so I wouldn't usually bring this unit.

10 man squad, flamer, multi-melta, rhino. Old school choice. Cheap setup. Moves onto objectives and holds them very effectively. Threatens everything. A solid squad for a newer player.

10 man squad, melta, combi-melta, multi-melta or missile launcher, rhino. Combat squads. Heavy half sits back and holds objectives while double melta squad moves forward in rhino. My personal favorite.

[Kelanen]

I would also very much recommend ignoring flamers (unless you face mainly hordes, but they are a rarity in modern 40k) and stick to Melta, MultiMelta and CombiMelta in your Tac squads. And 3 of them isn't remotely overkill - 2 is okay against Rhinos (but use all three if you really *must* have it opened now), and against anything more you will want all 3 every time.

The only other option I'd consider is Lascannon if you plan on holding them back. They definitely don't want to be the front line though.

[The Marshel]

tactical squads become vastly better in a casual environment, but the most important thing to remember when using them anywhere is that they are not an aggressive unit and have no business being an aggressive unit. they're there to support the assault, not lead it. Most problems with tactical squads start showing when people get into that "greatest of the imperium" mindset and expect their tactical marines to outshoot and out assault everything. So long as you can keep them out of dangerous match ups they'll serve you well.

another point to consider though is that you need to have a good think about combat squads before you write the list. Certain choices are very good if you are deff combat squading, but at the same time are bad if you are not going to combat squad. MM are a good example, combat squadding with one of them doesn't achieve much beyond getting an extra troop unit. On the other hand, not combat squadding a lascannon squad is a tad foolish as no matter what you do from that point, a weapon's fire-power will be wasted.

The only heavy weapon i think works well enough in both situations is the missile launcher, but that's mostly because its free. It's still better if you combat squad more often then not, but if you do plan to combat squad the lascannon is better

So, choose your targets well and think about combat squads and your plans for it when list writing, not at the start of your deployment

[Crimson Templar]

I will argue for the flamer as a good choice as they are able to get multiple wounds. I look at a Tactical squad as a type of swiss army knife. I likeeach squad to be able to handle multiple things "if" they need too.

Here are how my primary three squads are armed

I = Missle, flamer, combi flamer/powerfist sgt - this squad has been armed like this since 2nd edition and I have yet to re-arm them based on codex or rules changes
II = Multimelta, plasmagun, powerfist sgt
III = plasmacannon, meltagun, powerweapon sgt

I am working on completing my IV squad and it will look like this Lascannon,flamer,plasmapistol,ccw sgt

I like ot keep them all a little different, but I can use any of them to fulfill any mission type.

I have rhinos completed for the first three squads and will probably have one for the fourth squad.

Each squad can be combat squaded effectivly with a fire support and advancing element. I tend to keep 10 man squads together unless it is a lower point game and I need more scoring units to win.

[ChickenMacNugget]

Thanks for all the great replies, I'm gonna try and sum up what everyone said so I can get it clear in my head...

3 tactical squads are really good for ~2000 points.
They are NOT good in CC, and should be used at range to soften before a CC unit moves in.
Focus firing them is a good idea to completely remove a thread rather than have 2 smaller threats.
Giving them a transport is a MUST (rhino/razorback).
Split them into combat squads in a non kill point game (double the objective taking capabilities of the army)
One combat squad should have a Heavy weapon and sit on objectives.
The second combat squad should have the sergent and special weapons and move up to deny the enemy.
Flamers are situational, and the melta option is better in most cases, Horde armies are the prefered enemy of flamers.

Thanks for all the imput so far, I've probably missed a good bit in that little roundup but it's a good start I think.

One problem I'm facing now is combat squads... From what I can tell I can't mount a combat-squaded unit in a rhino as they are now treated as two units... Meaning 5 of my guys (the heavy combat squad) are left foot slogging? Is that how I'm gonna have to play it? Also, would a razorback be a good alternative for the rhino then, as it has a TL HB for 5 points... That seems like a fair deal, although it draws fire (but it's an army, everything will draw fire).

Thanks again for all the help so far
Combat squads should be written in when making the list to optimise (although this may be difficult if it's kill points).

[ChickenMacNugget]

Sorry double posted somehow

[Kelanen]

I think you've taken most of it on. A few comments though:

3 tactical squads are really good for ~2000 points.

No. I don't think anyone said that, and whilst a few players do think that, they are generally not the most competitive ones. Tactical squads are not really good at all. They are tolerably good when used for what they are capable of (which is supporting other units, but virtually never accomplishing anything on their own).

Furthermore, not many competitive lists would use 3 squads. Most use 2 squads, some players (myself included) use 1 squad and a squad of scouts, and a similar minority use 3 squads. The bottom line is that Tacticals aren't very good (you may have come across the term 'Tactical Tax'?), and the Combat Squad ability to double their number when they matter means a few go along way. We answered on the basis of 3 squads because that's what you have, and said you were going to use, not because it's optimal - I think only one other player advocated using 3 squads, and his loadouts were a long way from tournament optimal too.

Marshel made a very valid point - Tacticals get *much* better in more casual environments, where there versatility, lack of weaknesses and forgiving nature are valued. Go to a big tournament (GT, etc), and you will see almost zero Tactical Marines on the top tables after day one.

One combat squad should have a Heavy weapon and sit on objectives.

Not necessarily - this greatly depends on the Heavy Weapon. If you pick a Lascannon for example, then yes you do as you describe. If you pick a MultiMelta, then it needs to move forward, probably in the Rhino.

One problem I'm facing now is combat squads... From what I can tell I can't mount a combat-squaded unit in a rhino as they are now treated as two units... Meaning 5 of my guys (the heavy combat squad) are left foot slogging? Is that how I'm gonna have to play it?

Correct.

Also, would a razorback be a good alternative for the rhino then, as it has a TL HB for 5 points... That seems like a fair deal, although it draws fire (but it's an army, everything will draw fire).

Firstly, it's not just a TL-HB for 5pts. It lacks firepoints, so you are now firing that Heavy Bolter INSTEAD of firing your own special and heavy weapon from the roof. A Heavy Bolter is not much good at anything, and your squad weapons are almost certainly better.

Secondly, don't underestimate the ability to be able to move a a full squad around both in the first couple of turns and the last couple for contesting objectives. In kill point missions in particular (where you don't want to combat squad) the Razorback is a problem.

That's not to say Razorbacks should never be taken, but by and large SM use Rhinos not Razorbacks (other armies such as SW do a Razorback mounted army MUCH better). If you are using Razorbacks, you probably want to use the LasPlas version not Heavy Bolter. Heavy Bolter is the other likely choice, but not because it's any good, just because it's the cheapest.

[Str10_hurts]

Some options I would add or like to disagree on.

- I would disagree that flames are a bad option, and not common in high competition games. But it is true they are competing with the meltagun wich is the favorable option.
- I would advise to watch out in big point games with a low amount of scoring troops. In general go minimum marines (2x10) or go max marines (4-6x10) in 1750 for example.
- Tactical marines are not bad, its just that other MEQ armies have better troops.
- Lastly combi weapons and powerfists are the 2 most important options to consider on a sergeant.
- I am as reluctant as sad to say that if you want to play competative (god help me!) use Vulcan.

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

This is a good inquiry from the OP and great feedback from the veterans. I am enjoying the information. I have not played competitive in ages, but I still own four tactical squads as a Blood Angels player. I tend to take units in pairs if I can (actually, I think my OCD says do this).

I usually run ...

PW, flamer, and HB for anti-infantry
PF, melta, and ML for anti-armour

I think more information and tactics, maybe even examples would be great as to when to combat squad and what to include in a combat squad.

I do believe if a tactical squad sits to fire a heavy weapon for multiple turns is a waste, but only if they are camping an objective. Then on top of this is adding a Rhino worth it?

[Kelanen]

I do believe if a tactical squad sits to fire a heavy weapon for multiple turns is a waste, but only if they are camping an objective. Then on top of this is adding a Rhino worth it?

It's not a waste, it's their main use. They are not capable of much else.

Yes the Rhino is still worth it for camping. It costs 2 marines, and stops a hell of a lot more than 2 marines-worth of damage. Rhinos are ridiculously cheap, and there is no reason to have more than one eligible squad out of them, and ideally that squad is in one too. Not for nothing is 5th called 'Mech-edition' - vehicles are cheap, and very hardy, and there are no real downsides to being in one when it's blown up (unlike previous editions).

[Crimson Templar]

@Kelanen - You are dead right about my squads, they are not optimized for tournaments. I will tell you and the OP that I have run these squads like this for years and have had no problems with them.

Now here is the important point for the "Tactics" side of Tactical squads. They are a utility knife and need to be focused. My sub-optimized squads are optimized for my play style. That said, I use tactical squads like a utility knife. I focus on enemy units to engage at range, use heavy weapons when needed, for opportunity shots, and generally try to claim objectives in turn 4 or 5. I do not run a bunch of melta guns in my tactical squads because I run a bike squad with two meltas and a multi-melta.

Then I was in the US Army Infantry one of the things we were taught was about engaging an enemy. Optimally, you want to attack in a 3:1 ratio. You also want to mass your fire on the objective. I take this to the gaming table. As an example, my last game was vs my sons plague marines. You truly need mass in a situation like this because of the toughness of the plague marines. I destroyed all of his scoring units my attacking each with two tactical squads at a time plus support from my land raider redeemer. A few lucky first and second turn shots destroyed his transports which left him foot slogging, so I was able to move into positions to put a lot of shots into his units before assaulting him.

I think it is going to be hard to really talk tactics of tactical squads with out knowing what units are supporting them or what they are supporting.

[Kelanen]

I do not run a bunch of melta guns in my tactical squads because I run a bike squad with two meltas and a multi-melta.

Competitively speaking you run melta in just about every slot and unit that can have it. TL-Autocannons is about the only exception, you need buckets of the stuff.

I think it is going to be hard to really talk tactics of tactical squads with out knowing what units are supporting them or what they are supporting.

Agreed. We are all agreed on the fact that Tacs are a supporting squad rather than achieving anything on their own, so discussing them on their own gives no room for answers beyond "sit on an objective, and keep something near for counter-assault".

[ChickenMacNugget]

@Kelanen Thanks for all the tips! First of all I put in 3 tactical squads because, when looking through a bucketload of lists, 3 tac squads kept popping up, and it seems pretty smart to have 3 objective holding units, I wasn't aware that they're not good as 3, but thanks for pointing that out

I don't plan on entering any tournaments for atleast a year, especially because the tournament scene isn't huge in Ireland, where I'm from, and I'll mostly be playing a friend, who plays Eldar, and playing in my GW store with -more than likely- non competitive players, although of course I'll want to win as much as possible, but mainly have fun and hastle my opponents armies.

I forgot about the fire points, that changes everything, I'll more than likely not be taking razorbacks, except on the rare occasion where I want to see how they play.

@Str10_hurts
Great points made there, and I've heard from a few places that a PF sarge is good to have in a tight situation, cheers. Also I do plan on using Vulkan in many of my lists, I'm currently scratch building a model based on him, without salamander bling, and he is used in that list I linked to.

In reply to the "we don't know specifics": that's a good point. The problem is I don't really have specifics, except like my first post where I ask the optimum distance to drop the squad: within 12" and get the rapidfire/meltagun shots, then get charged more than likely? Or outside of that range?

That being said, I'd be trying for a tactic of:

Shoot a unit with tactical squad/multiple squads
charge in with assault terminators and try to wipe out the rest of the squad

obviously this is ambitious but I'd be trying for this kinda play in the best case senario to really run through a squad before they can hit back (provided they have low initiative).

[Kelanen]

I'll mostly be playing a friend, who plays Eldar

Eldar have for the most part even worse troops (I say this as an Eldar player!). Many lists have troops that will never take a shot all game, and just make vehicles scoring, or turbo-boost on in the late turns to grab objectives. Wraithguard are good, but overcosted and have a small threat radius, and Rangers/Pathfinders are a lot better than Marine Scouts. When all's said and done though, however lacklustre Tacs are, Troops is certainly a weaker slot for Eldar.

[Crimson Templar]

So I have a few thoughts on Sgts. I like to arm a Tac Sgt with a powerfist and combi-weapon or bolter. I also like to throw in power weapon or plasma pistol in too a squad or two. If I have read a few of the rumors correctly, Power weapons may be needed in sixth ed. Anyways knowing that tactical squads are a sub-optimal unit, what ways do you all prefer to arm your sgts, and why?

[Freman Bloodglaive]

My Tactical Sergeants get a combi-melta, that's it.

[ErictheGreen]

If my sargeants could have a combi melta, they'd have it.

As it is, I throw powerfists in a 1 per 2 squads ratio.

I tend to go with Stelek's 4+2 line with my tactical squads. That is, at 2000 points, I have 2 sitting back on objectives with long range heavy weapons and 4 pushing into midfield with melta.

Easier to do with combat squads than other armies.

Tactical squads do best sitting in midfield in their rhino, creating melta bunkers - come within 20 inches and don't stop the rhino from moving, and your tank/transport/walker is dead.

You then have to support them with long range fire (autocannon dreads, predators) and maybe some CC punch (dreads, terminators).

In the fluff, tactical squads are the do it all all rounders.

In the game, tactical squads move onto objectives/sit and hold them after/while your support elements clean up the enemy.