Arhra - Who What Where Why

[Ba'al Starslayer]

Just a note - there will be spoilers to Path of the Renegade, but I will spoiler-tag them out.

I was just trying to piece together Arhra and what he is.... so what do we know?
- He's the Father of Scorpions. A Phoenix Lord.
- He created the first Incubi Shrine.

Not much really... so what is implied?
- He's Drazhar. (Implied very very strongly)
- He fell to Chaos (although this could be "old fluff" and may have been semi-retconned with the new DE Codex. The CWE Codex said Arhra "Burned with the light of Chaos" but then again that could just be perception...)

So... Drazhar's art shows him with a cracked (unusable) Soulstone. So Arhra cannot be "put into it" ala the other Phoenix Lords.
This points to the fact that Arhra must be afflicted with the Soul-thirst that all the other Dark Eldar have.
So he's been killing his way to survival for the last god-knows how many years... but is this possible? Does Arhra still exist inside Drazhar's suit of armour?

Onto the second point.... and the spoilers for Path of the Renegade.

In Path of the Renegade it is implied quite strongly (and repeatedly) that Morr is in fact Arhra - a bullet through the skull (via the eyepiece) and a Darklight shot through his stomach amongst other repeated batterings, bruisings and crushings. His armour is also noted to be ornate with a twisted horned helmet, and he's a giant of a man [Eldar].
The thing is - with the fame that Drazhar has, surely he would be easily recognisable? Especially by numerous ancient Archons and Haemonculi, so this leads the reader to believe that, despite wearing big armour, it can't be exactly as Drazhar wears, correct? So does this mean he has changed his armour for his service with his Archon?
But surely a flesh and blood body would not be able to survive the injuries listed above...?

So what I'm trying to work out is...
What IS he?
WHO is he?
and
How has he survived so long?

[Hendarion]

Phoenix Lords aren't bound to their Soulstones, but to their armours. Your idea of the thirst is thus not necessarily plausible.
Inside the suite of a Phoenix Lord there is nothing btw. Just dust and empty space. Even if a new fellow puts it on, he will be consumed and merge with the souls in the armour to one, dominated by the original Phoenix Lord's will.

I don't know that book, when has it been released and is it possible the story does not go canon with the Codex for various reasons (Codex and book had been written parallel or the Codex even after the book) ?

[Palvinore]

In Path of the Renegade it is implied quite strongly (and repeatedly) that Morr is in fact Arhra - a bullet through the skull (via the eyepiece) and a Darklight shot through his stomach amongst other repeated batterings, bruisings and crushings. His armour is also noted to be ornate with a twisted horned helmet, and he's a giant of a man [Eldar].
The thing is - with the fame that Drazhar has, surely he would be easily recognisable? Especially by numerous ancient Archons and Haemonculi, so this leads the reader to believe that, despite wearing big armour, it can't be exactly as Drazhar wears, correct? So does this mean he has changed his armour for his service with his Archon?
But surely a flesh and blood body would not be able to survive the injuries listed above...?

There is a second bit in that book that is strongly suggestive though still not definitive about Arhra.

"Only the naive try to forgive and forget" he snarled to the raging spirits.

...

"Arhra remembers."

p. 220-221, Path of the Renegade

While it seems suggestive that he may be referring to himself as Arhra, it is conceivable he is referring to Arhra's teachings (and his followers). To set the context, he is snarling towards the spirits in the World Shrine of an Exodite world, essentially rejecting the Exodite philosophy.

[Satan]

IIRC isn't there a book called "Path of the Incubus" slated for release March 2013?

[Chem-Dog]

Always worth mentioning the anti/retro ageing effects of the Webway and associated demesnes.

If this Guy (Seriously, he's called Morr?!) is the Father of the Scorpions, he's the chap who created the Path of sneaking-up-on-people-and-then-battering-the-crap-out-of-them with FACE LAZERS!!!!!! That kinda skill set probably helps with one's longevity.

And I'm not sure if an Eldar's longevity before weird reality hopping extension has ever been nailed down, 5K years is probably quite young for an Eldar who isn't subjected to the Grimdarkness.

[Idaan]

Always worth mentioning the anti/retro ageing effects of the Webway and associated demesnes.

And I'm not sure if an Eldar's longevity before weird reality hopping extension has ever been nailed down, 5K years is probably quite young for an Eldar who isn't subjected to the Grimdarkness.

Eldar natural lifespan is ~1000 years. But the Phoenix Lords are immortal as long as there's someone to wear/awaken the suit, so it's not a problem.

OP, you might want to have a look at "Path of the Warrior" as well. It has a mention of Arhra summoning Daemons during his attack on the Shrine of Asur, but it might just be the black PR that Craftworlders give him. Even more interestingly, the ending of the book includes a flashback

to the time of the Fall, with Karandras being a lost child on the Eldar homeworld, being saved by Arhra who promises to take him to safety.

[Ba'al Starslayer]

I've always liked the idea that those "Daemons" were in fact the first Incubi he had trained in secret. A Fall of that magnitude doesn't come at a whim, he must have had doubts and plans... to the Craftworlders those lithe, horned, blank-faced slaughterers must have resembled Daemons.
As for the general "Phoenix Lord vibe", I thought the armour still needed a host - something akin to possession where the original spirit within the (I believed) Spirit Stone would take control, aided by the knowledge of the other past wearers... I just can't seem to put my finger on what Arhra's secret is and how he survived? Then again my basis is that the spirit stays with the Spirit Stone, not the armour... I just thought that's how it worked and, since Arhra has no stone, is the original Phoenix Lord still inside the suit?

[Palvinore]

What we know about Arhra has to be synthesized from multiple sources:

From the Eldar Codices we know that Asurmen was the first to walk the Path of the Warrior and that his pupils, the Asurya, all became Phoenix Lords, though it is nowhere said that Phoenix Lords have to be Asurya.

Arhra was the Father of Scorpions and a Phoenix Lord, so he would have learned from Asurmen. As shown in Path of the Warrior at some point he went back to the Eldar homeworlds, shortly after the fall, and saved the wandering child Karandras, who later would become his greatest disciple.

At some point later in time, Arhra turned against the rest and attacked the Shrine of Asur, destroying it, and forcing the other Phoenix Lords into their wandering among the stars. In Path of the Warrior, the Craftworlds said he did so out of a desire for power and that he consorted with daemons, though this may be biased from the Craftworlder POV.

In his place, Karandras took over as Scorpion Phoenix Lord and seems to have shifted the Aspect towards stealth (as he is described as tempering their previous murderous nature with the patience of the hunter). In this early period, it would seem that the Aspects had not yet crystallized into their current forms, and the Striking Scorpion (as interpreted by Karandras) appears to have replaced Arhra's earlier version. Meanwhile, Arhra as the Dark Father went to Commorragh and founded the Incubi. The features of the Incubi such as their Tormentor helms firing close ranged weaponry (as shown in the 3rd ed. Dark Eldar Codex and Path of the Renegade), shows a similar theme with the Striking Scorpion mandiblaster. It is possible that the original version of the Scorpion Aspect had more in common with the Incubi than the "current" Craftworld Striking Scorpions.

Drazhar is strongly hinted at being Arhra in the Dark Eldar Codex and appears to live purely to fight. If there is a greater motive it isn't given.

Now in Path of the Renegade, the earlier quote says "Arhra remembers", which may be either literal or perhaps metaphorical. Either way it seems to be a rejection of "forgetting and forgiving" which might be seen as the Exodite philosophy, of laying down their previous powerful pre-Fall ways in favor of a simpler hardier existence. That brings us back to what Arhra's motives were for turning against Asurmen and the other Phoenix Lords considering Arhra had earlier embraced the Path of the Warrior.

At this point it becomes speculative. Perhaps as the Craftworlders say, Arhra was power hungry and was launching a coup or purge of rivals, to establish his Aspect as the only Aspect. Alternatively, perhaps Arhra disagreed fundamentally with how things were progressing in the Path system, with things getting more rigid or perhaps with how Craftworlders seemed to be giving up their birthright of dominating the galaxy and the other races (something which the Dark Eldar still lay claim to). Perhaps Arhra was taking the stance of the means justifying the ends and hence siding with the Dark Eldar, as opposed to the Craftworlds, who still seem to hold certain things or actions as unacceptable. Ultimately until GW says in more detail, Arhra's motives remain unclear.

[Hendarion]

As for the general "Phoenix Lord vibe", I thought the armour still needed a host - something akin to possession where the original spirit within the (I believed) Spirit Stone would take control, aided by the knowledge of the other past wearers... I just can't seem to put my finger on what Arhra's secret is and how he survived? Then again my basis is that the spirit stays with the Spirit Stone, not the armour... I just thought that's how it worked and, since Arhra has no stone, is the original Phoenix Lord still inside the suit?

As I said, not the stone keeps the souls of a Phoenix Lord, but the armour does. It needs a host, but this host will be gone pretty soon after putting on the armour. That is also why the text of Drazhar ("some say it might only contain dust") is kinda a very important note, since all Phoenix Lord's armours behave like that. So there probably really is nothing inside, the suit is driven by the soul and pure will of Arha. No body, no secret to survive. He's a Phoenix Lord, they live forever, no matter if they get a new host or not, they are immortal because of the suit-possession-thing.
So there's no secret you need to search for. All Phoenix Lords behave the same in that matter.

[nagash66]

Why assume Arhra armor will function like that of the other Phoenix Lords, unless we know when the originals became one with the armor, and/or that arhra also underwent this we must not assume what applies to normal Phoenix Lords applies to one that has gone rogue/ has chaos influence.

Or am i missing something.

[shadowhawk2008]

Phoenix Lords aren't bound to their Soulstones, but to their armours. Your idea of the thirst is thus not necessarily plausible.
Inside the suite of a Phoenix Lord there is nothing btw. Just dust and empty space. Even if a new fellow puts it on, he will be consumed and merge with the souls in the armour to one, dominated by the original Phoenix Lord's will.

I don't know that book, when has it been released and is it possible the story does not go canon with the Codex for various reasons (Codex and book had been written parallel or the Codex even after the book) ?

Path of the Renegade is the first of a trilogy of Dark Eldar novels from Andy Chambers. It was released this month.

IIRC isn't there a book called "Path of the Incubus" slated for release March 2013?

Officially it is not up yet but the release date makes sense, given the staggered release of Bill King's Tyrion and Teclis novels. Andy has also mentioned that the third novel has the tentative title of Path of the Archon.

[Idaan]

That brings us back to what Arhra's motives were for turning against Asurmen and the other Phoenix Lords considering Arhra had earlier embraced the Path of the Warrior.

I like to think that he had a superior motive in his mind. He realized that destroying the Shrine would mean scattering the Asurya to the Craftworlds, where they'd teach of Asurmen's ways. At the very least, it would give the Eldar a much needed edge in their fight for survival. At most, it meant establishing the Path itself among the Craftworlders and giving them the means to resist Slaanesh (the timeline is unclear, but we know that Path of the Warrior was the very first Path opened - we don't know if others were established before the destruction of the Shrine though). Then he went to Commorragh to try and introduce the Path of the Warrior to the Dark Eldar - of course, it had to be disguised accordingly, because the DE wouldn't accept something so selfless. He's clearly up to something, but is it something good? I like to think so.

Because he's the hero Eldar race deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A Dark Father.

Why assume Arhra armor will function like that of the other Phoenix Lords, unless we know when the originals became one with the armor, and/or that arhra also underwent this we must not assume what applies to normal Phoenix Lords applies to one that has gone rogue/ has chaos influence.

Or am i missing something.

I am strongly inclined to believe that the "Ghost in the Shell" that the Exarchs and Phoenix Lords become isn't caused by some special ritual or process. To an Exarch, his armour (in some appearances never taken off after becoming the Exarch) is his true body - you can see this as an extension of the "warmask" ritual that normal Aspect Warriors have to pass to create a "battle persona". With an Exarch, the war persona takes over, so it's natural that he'd consider the armour to be truer than his flesh-and-blood body. Then, we know that Exarchs aren't allowed into the Infinity Circuit because they're considered tainted by Khaine's wrath. So the spirit is forced to stay within the armour, and is already pretty much bound to it, creating a "daemon engine" of a sort. Compare to how deceased Titan Steersmen remain within the Titan's Infinity Circuit.

The only special characteristic of the Phoenix Lords is that the original bearer's consciousness always remains dominant, but I guess this can be attributed to their demi-god status among other Eldar who fear to fight against them, their extraordinary willpower, or the fact that they're the first bearers of their respective suits.

IMHO there's no reason to think that Arhra would work differently, only perhaps replacing the spirit stones with soul drain.

[Ba'al Starslayer]

Ahhh this does make sense now, thank you. This started with my misunderstood ethos of the Phoenix Lord's "cycle" (I thought the spirit was kept with the Stone). Having the armour absorb the will of the wearers makes sense and puts a lot into perspective.

[FashaTheDog]

Officially it is not up yet but the release date makes sense, given the staggered release of Bill King's Tyrion and Teclis novels. Andy has also mentioned that the third novel has the tentative title of Path of the Archon.

Says that right in the front cover of Path of the Renegade, so I would assume that to be somewhat official.

[Hendarion]

Why assume Arhra armor will function like that of the other Phoenix Lords, unless we know when the originals became one with the armor, and/or that arhra also underwent this we must not assume what applies to normal Phoenix Lords applies to one that has gone rogue/ has chaos influence.

Well, yea. But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, Occam's Razor tells us that the most logical explanation is that it is a duck.

Btw, do Phoenix Lords speak? As far as we know, Drazhar doesn't.

[Idaan]

Karandras speaks in "Path of the Warrior":

His voice was as of many speaking in unison, deep and full of power. Every syllable resounded through Morlaniath’s mind like they were his own thoughts given life by another

[Ba'al Starslayer]

Well, yea. But if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, Occam's Razor tells us that the most logical explanation is that it is a duck.

Btw, do Phoenix Lords speak? As far as we know, Drazhar doesn't.

The feeling I get is that "Drazhar" is, to 99% of Commarrites, just an exceptional Incubi. Within the Incubi Shrines, however, he's rumoured to be Arhra.
That's how I feel (if it's true)

Morr could be Arhra

and hence "get away with" speaking (since noone knows his identity other than the name he's given).
Other than that I do believe Phoenix Lords speak, Drazhar just chooses not to.

[Hendarion]

Well, don't blame me too harsh, but the ideas of different people who have left Games-Workshop seems a bit off sometimes to those of the Codex-writers.
I know Gav wrote a Codex and I respect his ideas. But I'm not sure they are cannon with those of Andy, Jes or Phil or others of the design/fluff/Codex team.
Neither Path of the Warrior, nor Path of the Renegate or the Codexes seem to fit each other very well about this entire topic.


But well, if Phoenix Lords are able to speak and their voice is so much irregular multi-speach, then maybe Drazhar doesn't stay calm because he doesn't feel like speaking, but because he doesn't want to confirm some rumours. Weird idea, I know. But it could fit.

[The Red Pilgrim]

Well, don't blame me too harsh, but the ideas of different people who have left Games-Workshop seems a bit off sometimes to those of the Codex-writers.
I know Gav wrote a Codex and I respect his ideas. But I'm not sure they are cannon with those of Andy, Jes or Phil or others of the design/fluff/Codex team.
Neither Path of the Warrior, nor Path of the Renegate or the Codexes seem to fit each other very well about this entire topic.

The novels of Black Library are as much 'canon' as the codices.

[Hendarion]

That depends on who you're asking. And no matter if canon or not, they still sometimes are contradicting the Codices as well as Codices are contradicting other Codices.
Btw... I love Terminators with Jump Packs... *cough,cough*.

PS:
By "canon" I not only understand what is "official", but also what "goes along with the things we know directly from GW". So yea, BlackLibrary is 100% official and sanctioned, but that doesn't mean it is always "canon" too.