The Butcher's Nails thoughts..

[Kiro]

I find Lorgar's voice quite amusing, myself. He reminded me of Inquisitor Toth from Dawn of War. Argel Tal sounds a tad high pitched; his voice wasn't accented in the way I've imagined it. Kharn has a voice that could charm the clothes from a woman in less than ten seconds. Angron has the only vocal portrayal that I actively disliked; I like it in theory, signs of a being well spoken and able to articulate but heavy with sleep deprivation and withered by pain and nihilism. It was still too weak for me, not deep enough.

Funnily enough, I found the 'best bits' of the audio to be Angron's first charge into incoming fire (is that irritation or pain?) and his not-all-there conversation with Lorgar when he remarks "they let me dream"; the latter really made me feel Angron is w/e about mere conversation, even with his brothers.

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

Regarding the space battles thing, I think I've mentioned in 3 or 4 books before Dan's reference that void war occurs at immense distances. The point of the Conqueror (and those scenes in TBN) is that not every void war happens at those immense distances. The Conqueror writes its own rules on that score. It's a brawler. It practically rams enemy ships and harpoons them so they can't escape.

Partly, as well, it's a modification in the way I present void battles. Sure, I usually do them as shooting matches over a bajillion kilometres, but that can be a bit lacking in the "40K atmosphere" department. They're not all like that just because Dan says they are, or because I've done that them that way in the past. 40K void war isn't purely science-fiction, it's closer to sea battles from the Age of Sail. It's massive spaceships drifting past each other slowly, with endless cannonades of broadsides hammering at one another, inflicting breathtakingly massive casualties.

Another point is that in Know No Fear, it's mentioned that Argel Tal delivers sermons on the Word.

That's one of the dangers of working in a shared license. Sometimes, someone will write something about one of 'your' characters, and you'll say "Wait, he does what now?" F'rex, to me, Argel Tal was partially defined by the fact he didn't give sermons, pointedly choosing the sword over the crozius, and so on. He was the one who saw everything going to Hell around him, and was - in Brother Alinski's beautiful description - "a self-punishing redemptionist". He wasn't actively trying to recruit others into damnation, so to speak.

In this case, I've had an idea to smooth it out. I went from "But he'd never give sermons.." to "Oh, dude, that gives me an idea..." which I think is the only sane reaction in times like this. Every time you're backed into a corner, there'll be an opportunity to escape it in a really cool way.

Incidentally, yeah, it was a brevity issue. Argel Tal really enjoys duelling in the World Eater pits, which is why he was in a good mood. In Betrayer, he's still very much the same as he was in The First Heretic, though.

Well, almost the same:


"You can't help him. He's gone. Lost to the Nails. Kharn's already dead."

Argel Tal's wings lifted and spread, black-veined and bloody. He spoke in two voices: the man he'd been and the daemon he was becoming.

"It would be a grave mistake to believe I care about anything you have to say, Erebus. Spin your lies in other ears. I'm going to find my brother."

[MiyamatoMusashi]

Regarding the space battles thing, I think I've mentioned in 3 or 4 books before Dan's reference that void war occurs at immense distances. The point of the Conqueror (and those scenes in TBN) is that not every void war happens at those immense distances. The Conqueror writes its own rules on that score. It's a brawler. It practically rams enemy ships and harpoons them so they can't escape.

The problem I had while listening to it (which I was able to ignore and move on from, because the rest of the story was superb) wasn't really anything to do with the range; simply that the small, fast munitions and (exemplary fast) laser bolts couldn't hit the xenos ships; even just filling the vacuum of space with fire, the enemy was too manoeuvrable and just jinked around them. Range wasn't ever a problem. Then comparatively slow, bulky Ursus Claws hit plumb centre first time. It didn't seem consistent, to me.

Ursus Claws versus other Imperial ships? Yes, I can buy that... and you do NOT want to get boarded by Angron. Ursus Claws versus fast, agile Eldar craft that can dodge everything else thrown at them? Not so sure.

"You can't help him. He's gone. Lost to the Nails. Kharn's already dead."

Argel Tal's wings lifted and spread, black-veined and bloody. He spoke in two voices: the man he'd been and the daemon he was becoming.

"It would be a grave mistake to believe I care about anything you have to say, Erebus. Spin your lies in other ears. I'm going to find my brother."

SHIVERS DOWN MY SPINE. I love how the whole galaxy is going to hell in a handbasket, everyone's taking casualties left, right, and centre; then Kharn gets mortally wounded and pretty much everyone goes "WTF Kharn dying??? No way".

[Dead.Blue.Clown]

Ursus Claws versus other Imperial ships? Yes, I can buy that... and you do NOT want to get boarded by Angron. Ursus Claws versus fast, agile Eldar craft that can dodge everything else thrown at them? Not so sure.

Ah, yeah, for really reals. I tried to make it clear that they fire loads and loads of harpoons at tightly-packed range, where physics and pure dumb luck means a few will hit (though even then, several refuse to stick). But yeah, I totally see your point. I'll bear that in mind for future description. They're brutal and effective, but their deal is that they miss most of the time. I'll highlight that more.

SHIVERS DOWN MY SPINE. I love how the whole galaxy is going to hell in a handbasket, everyone's taking casualties left, right, and centre; then Kharn gets mortally wounded and pretty much everyone goes "WTF Kharn dying??? No way".

Hell of a guy, that Kharn.

My original idea for the cover was Argel Tal (now with added wings, and more badass) and Kharn back to back fighting the Ultramarines, but I got scared and went with Lorgar and Angron as a safe option. Every other guy on the team was doing Primarchs (Prospero Burns, Know No Fear, Deliverance Lost, Angel Exterminatus, Fear to Tread...) so I basically panicked.

I still sort of regret it, though the cover is a stone cold beauty.

[Wyrmwood]

The Conqueror writes its own rules on that score. It's a brawler. It practically rams enemy ships and harpoons them so they can't escape.

...40K void war isn't purely science-fiction, it's closer to sea battles from the Age of Sail.

That's one of the dangers of working in a shared license. Sometimes, someone will write something about one of 'your' characters, and you'll say "Wait, he does what now?" F'rex, to me, Argel Tal was partially defined by the fact he didn't give sermons, pointedly choosing the sword over the crozius, and so on. He was the one who saw everything going to Hell around him, and was - in Brother Alinski's beautiful description - "a self-punishing redemptionist". He wasn't actively trying to recruit others into damnation, so to speak.

Yeah, thats a good point. It was unexpected and made me blink in surprise: "Wait, the penitent is preaching now?" It's one of those occasions in 40K literature, well not limited to 40K, where I had to fill in the blanks to make it sit well. In my mind, it seemed like something must have happened in between; not necessarily to affirm Argel Tal's loyalty to a doctrine and purpose that he never really subscribed to, but to fundamentally change him to the point that he would accept it. Then I thought, "Huh, seeing the 'truth' behind the universe didn't exactly change who Argel Tal was (instantly) - I doubt watching a distant star going supernova through a porthole on a trip to the training cages would really have more impact."

In the end, I reasoned that being bonded with the Daemon would subtlety, at first, twist his psychology; small things, like no longer managing his relationship with Erebus in such a guarded way; he'd be more open about it, to the point where he'd eventually try to topple Erebus - delivering sermons, just to prove he's better. It's like, that was one of the primary factors; lots of other things, big and small, that contributed to it; conversations with Lorgar or, er, something. Edit: Could also be that the 'truth behind the universe' took time to take or that it was simply a lie.

I still sort of regret it, though the cover is a stone cold beauty.

You could keep hold of that idea for a future novel, chap; it sounds immense.

[Alan]

Well like someone said earlier "Claws" arent weapons in a classic sci-fi way, what I imagine (correct me if I am wrong) is loads of claws fired into the void with primary intention of grappling enemy but also serving as sort of a "fishing net" which would have devastating effect if run into by enemy ship. Eldar ships are agile and extremely maneuverable when opposed to energy rays or torpedoes but "claws" dont emit any heat I presume.
For me it is quite possible to have weapon like that not very precise but destructive nevertheless.

[MiyamatoMusashi]

Ah, yeah, for really reals. I tried to make it clear that they fire loads and loads of harpoons at tightly-packed range, where physics and pure dumb luck means a few will hit (though even then, several refuse to stick). But yeah, I totally see your point. I'll bear that in mind for future description. They're brutal and effective, but their deal is that they miss most of the time. I'll highlight that more.

Even that description makes them more believable to me. While listening to it (and this is from memory, so it may not have explicitly said this at any point) it sounded like a small handful, maybe as many as five, harpoons strapped to huge great chunky chains... and that I did not find convincing for the reasons I gave earlier. This new description makes it sound more like a "shotgun pellet" effect, many hundreds of harpoons with chains attached - basically the shipmaster goes "FIRE THE CLAWS!" and boom, basically the entirety of the space surrounding the ship is filled with spikes and chains, and something is bound to hit... in fact an enemy is as likely to be tangled in the myriad of chains as actually lanced by a harpoon!

I personally find that considerably more feasible. Obviously it may still not be likely to work in terms of physics but this is 40K, I'll happily let the minor details go. The concept is now much more believable, for me, having read this new description. Not that I want to tell you how to write, or anything.

[Xisor]

Ah, yeah, for really reals. I tried to make it clear that they fire loads and loads of harpoons at tightly-packed range, where physics and pure dumb luck means a few will hit (though even then, several refuse to stick). But yeah, I totally see your point. I'll bear that in mind for future description. They're brutal and effective, but their deal is that they miss most of the time. I'll highlight that more.

You can do better than highlight it. Using their other, faster weapons to 'herd' the eldar into a position where the weapons the World Eaters care if it hits, that's entering into more varied territory. For Angron, landing a hit with the claws is very important. For Kharn? For Ehrlen? There could be variation in the World Eaters, those who're already a bit further down the 'it doesn't matter from whence the blood flows' path who would totally neglect the pleasure of a close-range kill in favour of the 'easy' kill at range. Insisting on the use of the claws could be a time-wasting-but-tolerated foible of Angron and large/small portions of his legion.

Adds to the internal schisms the differences of taste & opinion within the World Eaters, whilst retaining focus on them all about fighting and killing.

[Liliedhe]

Ah, yeah, for really reals. I tried to make it clear that they fire loads and loads of harpoons at tightly-packed range, where physics and pure dumb luck means a few will hit (though even then, several refuse to stick). But yeah, I totally see your point. I'll bear that in mind for future description. They're brutal and effective, but their deal is that they miss most of the time. I'll highlight that more.



Hell of a guy, that Kharn.

My original idea for the cover was Argel Tal (now with added wings, and more badass) and Kharn back to back fighting the Ultramarines, but I got scared and went with Lorgar and Angron as a safe option. Every other guy on the team was doing Primarchs (Prospero Burns, Know No Fear, Deliverance Lost, Angel Exterminatus, Fear to Tread...) so I basically panicked.

I still sort of regret it, though the cover is a stone cold beauty.

Speaking from the fanperspective, I applaud your decision. Primarchs all the way, just saying... And Angron has not yet had a decent novel cover, so I thank you for it.

[Hrogoff the Destructor]

"You can't help him. He's gone. Lost to the Nails. Kharn's already dead."

Argel Tal's wings lifted and spread, black-veined and bloody. He spoke in two voices: the man he'd been and the daemon he was becoming.

"It would be a grave mistake to believe I care about anything you have to say, Erebus. Spin your lies in other ears. I'm going to find my brother."

It always strikes me as odd when a character is so brazen with Erebus (I'm pretty sure at one point even a primarch threatened him). Being one of the god's key architects of the heresy, I figured it would be an awfully dangerous proposition to get on his bad side. I assumed the gods kept close tabs on him, probably only second to Horus.

Then again, I am commenting on a story I've never heard for myself. I'm just hoping to have some light shed on a topic that's left me confused for some time.

[stormblade]

Alpharius(or was it Omegon) pretty much told him to 'stuff it' in Deliverance Lost.

[malika]

What was the name of that Night Lords ship that was mentioned when Angron and Lorgar were on the bridge of the Eldar ship. I couldn't hear it too clearly

[shadowhawk2008]

Nightwing? Memory is hazy.

[Nazguire]

Nightwing? Memory is hazy.

Ha, Batman reference for the win

[shadowhawk2008]

Appropriate enough though :-)