The Butcher's Nails thoughts..

[Alan]

Around 170 MB and 70-80 min.

[DDM]

I liked it. Not a big fan of some of the vocal choices made by the actors, but then again, it would be kind of hard for a normal person to successfully imitate a 9-feet-tall genetically forged demigod.

It mainly just made me feel bad for Angron. Poor schmuck really got the short end of the primarch stick, even more so than Kurze.

[Ragnarfan_12]

I dont really get it wouldnt the emperor know that his son was in such pain seeing as of how powerful of a pysker he is and how far off is this from Age of Darkness because Khan in that is pretty much insane... lol

[Kiro]

Great book but for me highlight is way the voice-actors did Argel-Tal (other way around Angron was not so good in my opinion).

Completely agree. I think I actually gave a surprised chuckle when I heard Argel Tal's voice, I was very impressed. Angron, on the other hand, reminded me of World Eaters Captain Delerax from The Face of Treachery (audio book) - almost comically high-pitched.

No reference to Rebirth

The only thing that bothered me about that was the depiction of Kharn; Rebirth, I believe, was his last appearance before this, and he sounded like a classic Berserker (psychotic). Yet, in this, he almost sounds calm and composed, like his old, pre-Heresy self.

I think the Eldar were DE and they don't usually follow prophecies as they don't have seers nor any kind of psykers (it could be explained away by harlequin intervention though as we know that they visit Cammoraough)

I thought the exact same thing:

When the bridge of the Eldar ship was described as having tortured/impaled bodies on it

Question. Did anyone else feel that Khârn had a slightly Latino accent? His voice sounded that way to me, particularly when he called Captain Lotara by name.

If anything, I thought he sounded Russian, or generic Eastern European.

[Xisor]

The only thing that bothered me about that was the depiction of Kharn; Rebirth, I believe, was his last appearance before this, and he sounded like a classic Berserker (psychotic). Yet, in this, he almost sounds calm and composed, like his old, pre-Heresy self.

It's been mentioned by a few folks that, possibly/probably, Rebirth is set after Butcher's Nails. Not for certain, but it makes more sense. That certainly allows time for Kharn to 'descend' more fully into his in-battle persona (seen in the opening trilogy on Isstvan III, if memory serves) even when out of battle (as per Rebirth). In an odd manner that'd likely mean that Aaron's forthcoming Betrayer would be set significantly before both Rebirth and Rules of Engagement from Age of Darkness!


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Re: Eldar

These are immediately post-fall Eldar, the Commorragh society we know and love as the Dark Eldar doesn't really come about with all its bells and whistles until Asdrubael Vect comes to power in M34, so Horus Heresy-era 'dark eldar' have a pretty free reign in being able to do almost anything they damn please... the iron fist of the Tyrant of Commorragh won't strangle the Dark City for a good few millennia yet!

[VanHel]

Gotta say, I do like swarthy Spanish Kharn..

[Kiro]

That would be the one thing to settle this, but...

IIRC, in Rebirth Captain Kalliston definitively gives a date for the story as 6 months after the Thousand Sons fleet was ordered to disperse. The problem here is we don't even have a concrete timeline for at least the Space Wolves' attack on Prospero to the Word Bearers assault on Calth (which is concurrent with Butcher's Nails). I'm inclined to think it's a booboo because the '6 months' date given in Rebirth would, coming from a Thousand Son, naturally take into account any deviation from realspace time. Alternatively, in Aurelian, Magnus and the Thousand Sons are confirmed traitors, and given that Aurelian precedes Butcher's Nails, it seems a little redundant that Horus/Angron/Lorgar would send the World Eaters to Prospero.

Granted, one could make a case for "you don't get to be Warmaster without being a little paranoid!" but one would have to grasp pretty hard for the straws I'm withdrawing

[Xisor]

Points taken. Prepare to see me grasp straws...

Kalliston's date: could it be personal time (e.g. six months for Kalliston's group after receiving the dispersal order)? A result of phenomenon particular to Prospero as of Magnus' message being sent (e.g. every time you travel to Prospero, you somehow end up shortly after the burning)?

I'm inclined to see Prospero as having fell into peculiar ordering: the Wolves would've burnt everything, destroyed everything, obliterated everything. They're thorough that way. Imperial time is measured from Terra & contact with the Astronomicon. Provided that Kharn arrives at Prospero in his own personal aftermath of B'sN/Betrayer, then everything can mesh sensibly... despite fitting into the general 'past' of the Heresy/pre-Heresy*. Though I do forget the specifics of what Kharn actually says in Rebirth, only recalling the vague gist.

* Prospero seems to happen a good year before the events on Davin, according to what Daemon-Horus says to Kasper in Prospero Burns, doesn't it?

[Kiro]

Prospero seems to happen a good year before the events on Davin, according to what Daemon-Horus says to Kasper in Prospero Burns, doesn't it?

I haven't read Prospero Burns, tbh. Given the uproar on here, I'm not particulary inclined to until I see it in the HH bargain bin equivalent. I'm trusting your usual non-bias until then!
That said, isn't any timeline from Prospero to Calth screwed up by The Outcast Dead? I wasn't one of those who bought into 'the warp did it' handwavium on that one.

Kalliston's date: could it be personal time (e.g. six months for Kalliston's group after receiving the dispersal order)? A result of phenomenon particular to Prospero as of Magnus' message being sent (e.g. every time you travel to Prospero, you somehow end up shortly after the burning)?

I'd say if anyone in the HH timeline (let alone the 40k metaverse) had a good lead on reconciling realspace time differences with warp lag, it would be a Thousand Son. Hence why I'm inclined to take Captain Kalliston's assessment at face value. If you don't have the relevant text to hand; Captain Kalliston idly mentions before planetfall that it's been [sic]six months since Magnus gave the order for the fleet to depart. I'd always assumed the fleet left Prospero around 48 hours before the Space Wolves fleet dropped out of the Warp.

[stormblade]

Going by all the inconsistencies in the linearity of the events I hereby assume that Heresy itself isn't real but is rather one of the mental constructs (dreams) the crazed semi-dead Emperor dreams. His fractured mind can no longer discern/remember truth from hearsay and fiction. Stories in the books are his desperate attemt to piece stuff togather but inconsistacies still creep up, which causes both him and the fans massive sanity loss.

[Xisor]

I haven't read Prospero Burns, tbh. Given the uproar on here, I'm not particulary inclined to until I see it in the HH bargain bin equivalent. I'm trusting your usual non-bias until then!
That said, isn't any timeline from Prospero to Calth screwed up by The Outcast Dead? I wasn't one of those who bought into 'the warp did it' handwavium on that one.

Bah, 'cept for the first 50 pages or so, PB's a cracking read. The only serious complaint about it is that it's barely anything to do with the title/cover/blurb... if you're really anal about that. (Subtext-wise it's super relevant. Anyway...)

The only explanation I can accommodate with The Outcast Dead is that Magnus' message arrival is... smeared out. He thinks it arrives at the moment it does in his mind, in reality there's a massive 'splash'... both forwards and backwards in time from it. So the 'moment' in TOD is when Magnus thinks it arrives, but the Emperor's been aware of a big cataclysm for which Magnus is responsible since very much earlier. So the Wolves aren't actually despatched during TOD, rather they've been sent long before the Emperor actually receives the message, but not before the time he starts to feel/suffer the effects...

That's about the only way I can see it making sense.

I'd say if anyone in the HH timeline (let alone the 40k metaverse) had a good lead on reconciling realspace time differences with warp lag, it would be a Thousand Son. Hence why I'm inclined to take Captain Kalliston's assessment at face value. If you don't have the relevant text to hand; Captain Kalliston idly mentions before planetfall that it's been [sic]six months since Magnus gave the order for the fleet to depart. I'd always assumed the fleet left Prospero around 48 hours before the Space Wolves fleet dropped out of the Warp.

If the stuff I mention above the case is true, then the fall of Prospero is a big 'you're not as clever as you thought you were' for Magnus - his message arrives wrong. Six months from the burning still pass, but the Wolves aren't aware of the content of the message.

(That said: this is categorically contradicted by the end of PB, but it's an off-hand mention and easy to retcon - Russ does know the content of the message Magnus sent. A revision would simply say he was sent to Prospero without that knowledge and everything fits. Similarly having Magnus' message arrive at the very start of TOD would fix it too.)

[Kiro]

The only explanation I can accommodate with The Outcast Dead is that Magnus' message arrival is... smeared out. He thinks it arrives at the moment it does in his mind, in reality there's a massive 'splash'... both forwards and backwards in time from it. So the 'moment' in TOD is when Magnus thinks it arrives, but the Emperor's been aware of a big cataclysm for which Magnus is responsible since very much earlier. So the Wolves aren't actually despatched during TOD, rather they've been sent long before the Emperor actually receives the message, but not before the time he starts to feel/suffer the effects...

That's about the only way I can see it making sense.


If the stuff I mention above the case is true, then the fall of Prospero is a big 'you're not as clever as you thought you were' for Magnus - his message arrives wrong. Six months from the burning still pass, but the Wolves aren't aware of the content of the message.

(That said: this is categorically contradicted by the end of PB, but it's an off-hand mention and easy to retcon - Russ does know the content of the message Magnus sent. A revision would simply say he was sent to Prospero without that knowledge and everything fits. Similarly having Magnus' message arrive at the very start of TOD would fix it too.)

I'm just praying for a second edition, where they cut/paste the offending section to as early as possible in the book XD

[AdamR]

The Ursas claws put me off right at the start!
Given that engagements between starships take place at 1000's of kilometres apart, where on your ship do you store the thousands of kilometers of chain strong and thick enough to tug starships about? And once you've snared 2 ships, why doesnt their thrust tear the World Eaters ship apart?
It took me a couple more attempts to actually listen to it all the way through...

[shadowhawk2008]

Yea, it bugged me too. It sounds really implausible but hey, I'm willing to go with the rule of cool in this case.

[SunTzu]

I admit it... I also had to sort of sing "LA LA LA" with my fingers in my ears and pretend I didn't hear that bit.

"Our lasers and high-velocity physical rounds can't hit the enemy ships, they're too fast! But the slow and heavy Ursus Claws dragging a heavy chain behind them can hit them easily!"

Happily, the rest of it was sufficiently awesome that one slip up like that didn't ruin it for me. If there had been much more like it, though, that might not have remained true.

[Lupe]

The Ursas claws put me off right at the start!
Given that engagements between starships take place at 1000's of kilometres apart, where on your ship do you store the thousands of kilometers of chain strong and thick enough to tug starships about? And once you've snared 2 ships, why doesnt their thrust tear the World Eaters ship apart?
It took me a couple more attempts to actually listen to it all the way through...

Ships are thousands of kilometers apart every space battle, yet ramming (i.e moving at full speed towards another moving ship) is still a viable and frequently used option. As for the thrust, remember that those ships were fairly small compared to Angron's capital ship. And the sheer kinetic force of a harpoon that can purchase sufficient grip on a ship probably causes horrendous damage to a lot of the essential functions of whatever vessel is unlucky to find itself impaled. Just attempting to fire up the engines might be enough to critically weaken the trapped ship's structural integrity.

As for Sun Tzu's point

The claws were fired blind, when the enemy ships were close enough that their speed was far greater than the gun batteries' tracking speed. Keep in mind that the claws are probably hundred meter thick adamantium spikes. The chances of them scoring a hit are considerably larger than a beam of light a few inches thick. And let's not forget the element of surprise here. No pilot or captain will expect this coming, and no sensor array was probably calibrated to look for giant, starship wrecking harpoons, even if these sensors can accurately track the movement of every turret and battery on board a battle barge

[Xisor]

Lupe - I seem to recall that dissipation in three dimensions is quite severe. Tracking a ship's trajectory tends to be reducible to two dimensions reasonably easily. (Just find their plane of movement! Light & high velocity munitions'll likely still be better than fire-forget chains... mainly as chains have to space-fill.)

I'm not explaining this very well, but the three-dimensionality & semi-permanence of 'firing big chains' makes them much less useful (and more easily avoided) than smaller beams of light. As DA says - space is big.

[brother alinski]

First off Awesome! Loved Logar and Kharn although Angrons voice was a little off from what I thought in my head, He seemed to sound old and withered. I expected more base in his voice although 200 years of no sleep could do that to a man.

The Claws I like. Think about it, the Eldar have a fleet of smaller but highly agile ships, if your fast you don't keep your distance pounding away at something, trading blows, you git in close course damage dodge, get out and repeat, especial if you have a fleet of other vessels heading for you. The Ursas Claws are a brilliant defence for this because (as it has already been said) the greater the distance between the Conqueror and the enemy ships the less likely they are to hit. But because their in close the chances of hitting them increases. Imagen Eldar ships circling around the mobile fortress that is the Conqueror. Dodging, looping and evading fire patterns and shots targeted at them, then bang! Harpoons out in all directions, there's no logic to them so no planed movements to evade them because there not being aimed so sailing in evasive patterns doesn't work because your not trying to out smart the enemies targeted fire. Its chance that your in the path of one or not.

On the Kharn front I think this takes place after Rebirth, I think Kharn's will is so strong he can control the butchers nails when he's not in combat or interrogating a prisoner, when he's dueling Argel Tal he feels the butchers nails start to build and backs off. He is still on the path to becoming the Betrayer but he's still questioning himself, his legion and the war. Besides Berserkers arn't crazed killers all the time.

Did anybody feel there was a change in Argel Tal's character though? He seems to have gone from the self punishing redemptionist (A man who became brothers with the Custodian he would have to kill) to one who seems gleeful of the war. Do you think its due to the merger of his soul and that of Raum? Relief that he no longer has to hide himself or that he is still the man/monster from TFH who did make a comment about the blood of Astartes before apologising as he opened fire on the Raven Guard?

[Kiro]

Did anybody feel there was a change in Argel Tal's character though? He seems to have gone from the self punishing redemptionist (A man who became brothers with the Custodian he would have to kill) to one who seems gleeful of the war. Do you think its due to the merger of his soul and that of Raum? Relief that he no longer has to hide himself or that he is still the man/monster from TFH who did make a comment about the blood of Astartes before apologising as he opened fire on the Raven Guard?

Agreed, although I think that's more due to the brevity of the audio book, and it's focus on Angron and the World Eaters, as opposed to Word Bearer character development.

[Wyrmwood]

Agreed, although I think that's more due to the brevity of the audio book, and it's focus on Angron and the World Eaters, as opposed to Word Bearer character development.

Indeed, he's also been sharing his form with a powerful warp entity for how long? I can think of no greater form of corruption; even if he consciously resists and fights against it, the residual feedback from the daemon is going to twist him very quickly. Only, he hadn't even been resisting it: on Isstvan, he allowed the change to come so he's already opened himself up. Another point is that in Know No Fear, it's mentioned that Argel Tal delivers sermons on the Word.

By The Butcher's Nails and Know No Fear, he's quite devout.

I find Lorgar's voice quite amusing, myself. He reminded me of Inquisitor Toth from Dawn of War. Argel Tal sounds a tad high pitched; his voice wasn't accented in the way I've imagined it. Kharn has a voice that could charm the clothes from a woman in less than ten seconds. Angron has the only vocal portrayal that I actively disliked; I like it in theory, signs of a being well spoken and able to articulate but heavy with sleep deprivation and withered by pain and nihilism. It was still too weak for me, not deep enough.

That said, I enjoyed the audiobook and didn't want it to end.