Eldar Wishlist.

[althathir]

6th ed is so close now that it seems pointless to go into specific wishlisting.

My main hope is that the existing units get the attention they deserve as I think we will get lots of shiny new gubbins (particularly vehicles) to distract us.

Yeah at least a flier, and hopefully something in fast attack (or just give us hornets ).

Bring back the Craftworld Eldar rules from their old dex. Would love to see how that Greyknight Paladin spam would do against the Ranger Disruption Table

That table was a gimmick, and I think part of Eldar's problem is that our books have relied on them for too long. So hopefully they stay away from that stuff IMO.

Basically the saying: "Guardians do not fit the fluff, Eldar are a dying race and should be expensive and small elite force". You can read that on every page with different words.

Also I didn't say that currently an all-Guardian-force is working. I said it should be (and is) a viable army selection.

As far as guardians I would almost rather see them move into the elite slot, gain bs 4 & 4+ save, and allow the player to choose between weapon platforms & specials (2 for every 10) as well as between shurcats, and pistols and CCWs. Then only have a couple of base troops (i'm thinking rangers and DA) and have the player choose an origin which makes a couple of other units count as troops.

So for example there would be a Ulthwe style origin that would unlock the improved guardians and jetbikes, a beit-tan one that lets you pick swooping hawks and scorpions*, and Wraith style option that would give wraithguard as troops and maybe allow a scoring wraithlord for every 2-3 squads. The wraithguard origin wouldn't have any additional restrictions on unit size so you could take a min. squad instead of having to take 10.

*This is the one area i'm not completely sold on, I picked hawks & scorpions because they have alternative deployments that don't require transports, they're fairly well rounded as far as aspects go, and I think allowing any aspect to be troops would be unbalanced. Honestly though if Dire Avengers become a bit more flexible aspect armies wouldn't need an origin, maybe something like sternguard ammo?

Beyond that the only suggestion I have is changing fire dragons, so they have heat lances, & tank hunter instead of melta guns. Its makes them a little less rounded, but they could be further from vehicles so they wouldn't get hurt by explosions and would be easier to hide.

[bignbadbum]

I've just recently started playing Eldar.. and by no means an expert, but I thought I would chime in with my own(hopefully balanced) wishlisting. Note, some things go without saying like offensive grenades on most units.
So here it goes:

Army Wide Rules:
-Fleet of Foot(This would apply to everything in the army except Wraithguard and Wraithlords.. Who could obtain it with a Spiritseer in the unit/nearby)
-Eldar Psychic Might(All Eldar are psychic, and are potentially the best psykers ever next to Tzeentch related Chaos. I think there should be a generic list of several psychic powers that all units,barring Wraithlords/guard and -vechicles, could buy from that did certain things with a psychic test. Units could only buy 1 power. Everything else would work akin to Brotherhood of Psykers in C:GK. Warlocks would work as they do now adding even more abilities to a unit they are attached to)
Acute Senses
All Shuriken Catapult weapons would get +6" to their range. 18" Shuriken Catapults. 24" Avenger, 30" Cannon

HQs:

-Avatar of Khaine(would gain I7 A5, Furious Charge and FNP. His Fearless bubble would also grant Furious Charge. As mentioned above he would also be fleet. Wailing Doom would also gain 2 alternative profiles for a total of 3 and the player would pick which one they want at the beginning of a game and cannot change it. The first would be a S6 AP4 Template, the other a 18" S5 AP2 small blast. This would represent the Wailing Doom taking the form of different weapons like sword or spear and provide a Anti-Horde, Anti Tank, and Anti TEQ option. Would up his cost to at least 200.)
-Phoenix Lords(unlikely, but wish for it nonetheless. Phoenix Lords would gain WS/BS8, I8, W4, A5 and all would gain the Battle Fate rule that Asurmen currently has for an inv save. Drazhar in the DE book would also gain the boost. Points cost adjusted as needed.)
-Autarch(Keep Master Strategist, but add in something akin to the GKGM's Grand Stratedgy rule. D3 units gain one rule from the following: Scout, Counter-Attack, Hit and Run. Also add in more gear options for weapons/utility gear.)
-Farseer(Psychic Mastery lvl 2 base. 35 point upgrade to lvl 3. 35 point Spirit Stones to upgrade to lvl 4. Options to buy other Seer upgrades. I.e. Battleseer = +1WS, +1A. Most other options stay the same. Would choose psychic powers for free at the beginning of a game akin to how Marines psykers are now. Also add in 3-4 new psyker powers that preferably involved mobility or were offensive)
-Warlocks(give I5 A2. Otherwise practically the same.)
-Wraithseer from Forge-World

Aspect Warriors:
-All gain 2A base(Exarch 3A) and have fleet(as above) and a 3+ save.
-Make Exarch powers more unique and not streamlined. Akin to Incubi Klaivex Powers.
-Striking Scorpions(Would have Infiltrate, MTC, and Stealth base. Mandiblasters and chainswords would stay the same. Scorpions Claw would count as an I1 S8 power weapon. Biting Blade would be Rending.)
-Dire Avengers(Counter Attack base. Shimmershield would be +5 Inv at all times. Bladestorm would add +1 shot at max range, +2 shots at half range and cannot fire next turn. Sort of like an Eldar FRF,SRF. Avenger Shuriken Catapult would be 24". Diresword remains the same.)
-Shining Spears(Would have Hit and Run and Skilled Rider normally and be equipped with pistols. Laser/Star Lances would stay the same regarding CC. Laser Lances become AP3, Star would be AP2)

Rangers and Pathfinders:
-Rangers(Gain WS4 would have Scout added to Masters of Stealth)
-Pathfinders(Would become and Elite choice with BS5 I5 and LD9. Their Stealth would still be +2 to cover save. Would still ignore Difficult terrain. Would gain a rule to make their Outflanking work like Wolf Scouts BEL rule. Special rifle remains the same.)

Guardians:
-Only thing I can really think of concretely here(Don't use them) is to give them all a base +4 Armor Sv instead of a +5.

Wraithlord And Guard(Wraithsight remains the same):
-Wraithlord(WS5, W4, A3. Would be allowed to have 2 Heavy Weapons in addition to a melee weapon. Add a couple more melee options in addition to the Wraithsword.)
-Wraithguard(W2. Guns become 18" range. Wraithsword option. No other changes.)

Vechicles:
-All Vehicles gain BS4.

That's about it for now. Most the units talked about are ones I used/plan to field or are interested in. Like some have said the idea for me here was for a mobile force between SM and IG in terms of durability.

[Bubble Ghost]

usually in these threads no one argues against the concept of Guardians, but simply the execution of the concept. It makes perfect sense for a dying race to use civilian auxiliaries, it does not make perfect sense to equip these auxiliaries with rifles that have the range of pistols and the weakest armour they craft.

Guardians' armour and weapons are ideal for them as is. If you're a "dying race" (which is a debatable description for Eldar, but let's go with it for now) battling against armies that heavily outnumber you, why on earth would you equip your forces for battles of attrition and long-range slugging matches? Against enemies with more guns than you, you want to be out of sight, constantly moving, and right up in their faces, where you can neutralise their advantages and make every one of your own shots count. And Guardians are perfectly equipped for that. Light armour combined with their natural agility is going to help them move quickly through the dense terrain that a "dying race" wants to be in, and a weapon like the shuriken catapult is going to have enormous defensive advantages in that terrain - you can't attack them directly because you'll be sliced up like sashimi, and you can't call in fire support because they'll be gone by the time it arrives. Guardians are perfectly equipped.

The problem - and there is a big problem - is that, like I said a couple of posts back, 40K's core rules reflect absolutely none of that. Instead, once a unit's turn has ended, it stands stock still and just allows the enemy to pound on it. So that's what I want addressed. I don't want the background to start treating the side effects of unrealistic game mechanics as though they're laws of physics, because that way lies madness. I'd rather see rules that make Guardians more or less as they are viable.

[dæl]

dont like the idea of all aspects getting 3+ saves, eldar dont need durability, they need mobility.

pathfinders dont need to join a crowded elites, or need to outflank.

like the idea of grand strategy for autarchs, and some way of showing what paths your hq took before their current one (battleseer/autarch with minor psychic power or exarch powers based on wargear)

fuious charge on banshees seems about right.

[BooTMGSG]

Guardians' armour and weapons are ideal for them as is. If you're a "dying race" (which is a debatable description for Eldar, but let's go with it for now) battling against armies that heavily outnumber you, why on earth would you equip your forces for battles of attrition and long-range slugging matches? Against enemies with more guns than you, you want to be out of sight, constantly moving, and right up in their faces, where you can neutralise their advantages and make every one of your own shots count. And Guardians are perfectly equipped for that. Light armour combined with their natural agility is going to help them move quickly through the dense terrain that a "dying race" wants to be in, and a weapon like the shuriken catapult is going to have enormous defensive advantages in that terrain - you can't attack them directly because you'll be sliced up like sashimi, and you can't call in fire support because they'll be gone by the time it arrives. Guardians are perfectly equipped.

The problem - and there is a big problem - is that, like I said a couple of posts back, 40K's core rules reflect absolutely none of that. Instead, once a unit's turn has ended, it stands stock still and just allows the enemy to pound on it. So that's what I want addressed. I don't want the background to start treating the side effects of unrealistic game mechanics as though they're laws of physics, because that way lies madness. I'd rather see rules that make Guardians more or less as they are viable.

Could let them go to ground without penalty, and fall back when charged if pass say an initative test.
This would
a. make them more hardy, without decking them out in heavy armour.
b. Let them avoid CC, which is a problem with a 12" weapon.
c. Make them seem more mobile, without bogging down the game.

@Bignbadbum Scorpions, Warpspiders and Dark reapers should not get fleet. They are heavily armoured. I know its a pain for the scorpions, but banshees are supposed to be fast and fragile, and if you make scorpions fast, you'd have to let banshees go at ludicrous speed, and that is well... ludicrous.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

Please do not use fluff to justify any kind of stats. Especially WS or BS of 5. There are other "well trained" or "super good" units with stats 4 (Marines, remember that 4 is an elite-value!). Making them 5 will lead to only one thing: More fanboy-GW-workers of other races will create their next Codex with stats 5 too and then everything will be where it is now (or worse if you think of Dark Reapers with BS5, WS3 compared to Space Marines with BS5, WS5!)
Use game-balance-views to decide what stats or gear should be useful or balanced.
Are Marines with Storm-Bolters and Force-Weapons for 20 points balanced? No. Should Eldar get equivalents? No, because it would be the same imbalance.
Are Henchmen with Storm-Bolters for 7 points balanced? No. Should Eldar get them instead? Nope.

I'm not saying that some Aspects or units aren't broken, we all know some are. But making weapon-specialists hit on a 2+ instead of 3+ is not elite-choice, it is unbalanced.

Neither I don't see what the problem is with Guardians as a concept. I'm not saying they should stay the way they are, no, they are expensive rubbish. But if I imagine a Craftworld, I think of millions of civilians. If they get in danger and get attacked or need to make a pre-emptive strike and have to put in all their available strength, then I think of the same as when I think of the Imperium: A hand full of trained elite warriors (Marines, Aspects) among millions of normal forces (Guardsman, Guardians). That doesn't mean Eldar should consist of only Guardian-forces, but they should be a valid army-build same as an all-Aspect-army should be. That is possible right now. You can chose to pick 6*20 Guardians as your core choices or you chose 2*5 Dire Avengers. It is your choice!

Stop saying that because Eldar are a dying race, the concept of Guardians is wrong. It is not. If they need to defend their Craftworld, I imagine 90%+ of the forces to consist of Guardians. Small elite forces (or even big ones) aren't a contradiction here. It depends on the purpose. If you wanna play a scenario where the Aspects have been slaughtered in defence of their Craftworld, then you should be able to build up an army that consists only of mere Guardians. Removing this ability from the Eldar Codex would be the same like removing Gaunts from Tyranids Codex - a big flaw. They should exist and ever have. That they currently are not a valid choice is not a problem of the concept. In 2nd Ed you gladly took Guardians and they owned!


PS:
I noticed that Vampire Raider and Hunter are AV 10/10/10... made me cry on saturday. Guess I'll leave them just in my cabinets then

I have only ever seen a few people arguing against the concept of Guardians. I normally see this is a counter to the argument "well they're supposed to be crap because they are militia so they're fine as they are".

The problem with Guardians is that they are crap. Or more specifically, their crap gun. No one moaned about Guardians in 2nd edition except marine players. Fix the gun, fix the unit. It's not rocket science. 18" assault 2 would be fine but I really like the idea of 18" rapid fire 2 if 6th ed goes down that route.

Discussions about WS/BS 5/4 or 4/5 or 5/3, 3/5 are interesting but mostly pointless, I agree. Dark Eldar are a less established race than Eldar and they received some pretty conservative stat tweaks across the codex (except on characters - PK went a bit crazy with his WS values there). I don't anticipate any radical changes to the Eldar stat line as it has been pretty established for the best part of two decades.

The reason I'm not too keen on WS/BS 5 is that it's an unecessary shifting of the parameters in a game in which there really only three characteristic levels for non character troops (and yeah - I'm kind of peeved that DCAs got WS 5). I'd rather see warrior powers boosted to give real advantages and skills.

Take Banshees for example. They would greatly benefit from hitting against MEQs on a 3+, particularly in the first round of combat. Giving them WS 5 is a sledghammer approach to this and poor codex design IMO. They already have an ability which can reduce the enemy unit to WS 1. The problem is that it is marginal as it only works if the enemy unit fails a Ld test. Increase the cost and change the ability so that it works without the need for a failed Ld test. Much better codex design than giving a stat boost.

[bignbadbum]

@Bignbadbum Scorpions, Warpspiders and Dark reapers should not get fleet. They are heavily armored. I know its a pain for the scorpions, but banshees are supposed to be fast and fragile, and if you make scorpions fast, you'd have to let banshees go at ludicrous speed, and that is well... ludicrous.

I disagree with the idea that they are "to heavily armored". Just look at Incubi(the DE mirror to the Aspect Warriors). 3+ (Heavy armor) with fleet. I don't think that argument holds up that great to begin with for Scorpions.. A unit that relies on stealth and infiltration(which arguably to be good at would require some sort of agility and finesse and speed), but is so heavily armored that they are incapable of being.. agile? Which as aforementioned would probably be a good trait to have if you were involved in infiltration and stealth.

If we wanted to take this a step further.. Space Marines can have a whole army with Fleet of Foot(C:SM with Shrike) and they are definitely less agile and more armored than anything in the (Dark)Elder Codecies. In fact this Space Marine Fleet even applies to Terminators. So no.. I don't think the "Scorpions are too heavily armored to be fleet of foot" argument has any weight in the fluff or in game design.

I could see the argument against it for Dark Reapers.. Lugging around large guns and all. Not so much for Scorpions and Warp Spiders.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

I agree about Scorpions. They are supposed to be stealthy 'ninjas' and now that Incubi get fleet I don't really see why they shouldn't also.

Warp Spiders and Reapers are a different story. Warp Spiders carry huge Warp Jump generators on their backs and Dark Reapers carry heavy weapons (the 2nd ed fluff also states that they have rigid plates in the legs of their armour to help them fire).

[Hoshiyami]

Dark Reapers carry heavy weapons (the 2nd ed fluff also states that they have rigid plates in the legs of their armour to help them fire).

So how about giving them Slow and Purposeful or relentless?

[Geep]

I wouldn't be surprised if the next book lets Eldar go the same route as other current books (eg. Fleet despite heavy armour), but I really hope we don't go this way. Armies shouldn't need to rely on gimmicky special rules like these, and even if you do go down that route not everyone should get the same gimmicks. For a similar reason I think the current Eldar book has the perfect number of units with grenades- if you go and distribute grenades as freely as Guard or Grey Knights then we may as well remove the effects of cover from close combat entirely. Having a flaw for units to overcome is a good thing IMO as it makes the game require thought and allows players to develop their skill.

like the idea of grand strategy for autarchs, and some way of showing what paths your hq took before their current one (battleseer/autarch with minor psychic power or exarch powers based on wargear)

More options for HQ units to show other paths is not a bad idea, but Exarch powers should not be mixed up in this. All Aspect Warriors train with the same weapons as each other, sticking to that training 'path' before they leave. Autarchs travel down many warrior paths, so become familiar with a wide variety of gear- but only the basic gear. Exarchs fall off the 'path'- they become trapped as one specific warrior type for the rest of their lives, and hence have the time to learn about new skills and weapons (oddly assisted by a severe case of multiple personality disorder).
An Exarch HQ choice, other than Phoenix Lords, may be an interesting option. I especially like the Court of the Young King idea (mainly because it already has background).

It goes without saying that some Aspects will need different Exarch powers, and Autarchs need a Master Strategist rules tweak. I wouldn't be against it if some of these powers could give people the special rules they all seem to want, as that way the 'crutch' is optional.

[Bergen Beerbelly]

I think the entire idea behind Guardians is silly from a fluff perspective. Any race on the brink of extinction in an incredibly hostile universe/galaxy would militarize their entire population to ensure their survival. All of the things they need would be made by their military forces so some of them would still be farmers and things like that but they all would be warriors first. In a race that lives as long as the Eldar do their battle skills would be above the trained guardsman because they have had hundreds of years to perfect it. Grand Master human martial artists have far less time than that to perfect their art and they are incredible warriors. A being that lives for hundreds of years would be even more incredible than that.

While I think it is interesting that guardians do exist, it doesn't really make much sense. Especially with the type of weaponry they gave them. Incredibly short ranged with no type of targetting system to get a better aim. For a race that is supposedly as technologically advanced as the Eldar are portrayed to be it's completely rediculous. When they get inside a tank they should have advanced targetting equipment that would allow them to be better shots than a guardsman (after all, they aren't afraid of technology like the Imperium, they embrace it.)

Everything about the concept of the guardian to me just doesn't fit and I hope they remove them completely from the game or change them somehow so they seem to fit better into what a race facing extinction would actually do with their population. And sitting around writing poetry isn't a luxury the Eldar can afford.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

@Bergen Beerbelly - this line of discussion inevitably leads to a fluff v tabletop argument and those never go anywhere.

Eldar stat lines date back to the 2nd edition codex when the two main systems were pretty similar - 40k was more or less just a skirmish version of WHFB with vehicle rules tacked on. High Elves have superficially similar fluff to Eldar (dying race, all citizens trained to fight) so it's interesting that GW didn't choose to have Eldar stats reflect High Elf stats at that time (WS4 BS 4 for standard troops). My guess is that they didn't want Eldar to be noticeably more elite than Space Marines. Whatever the reason, I think we're stuck with those stat lines and now the two systems have diverged the comparison between Elves and Eldar is less relevant.

I understand the reasoning behind the arguments that Guardians should have better stats. I even sympathize with them to an extent. I just don't think it's necessary and distracts from the real issue which is that their gun is substandard.

Like I said before, Eldar players loved Guardians in 2nd edition. Other players hated them. The shuriken catapult has been completely shafted since the release of 3rd edition and I sincerely hope that GW sort it out with the next codex release.

[dæl]

Having a flaw for units to overcome is a good thing IMO as it makes the game require thought and allows players to develop their skill.

agree wholeheartedly, especially for eldar. But with its flaws each aspect should be the pinnacle of excellence at its specialty, so banshees should hit like a ton of bricks on the charge (give them furious charge, and maybe a sort of chaplain-esqe exarch power forcing opponent to reroll hits if banshees charge), and scorpions should strike from nowhere (ymgarl deployment? stealth usr). I would like to see a much greater abundance of the hit and run usr too, not army wide, but more than just baharroth, shining spears and harlies.

and POP UP grav tanks, damnable tau battlesuits stealing eldar tactics.

[bobafett_h]

I think the entire idea behind Guardians is silly from a fluff perspective. Any race on the brink of extinction in an incredibly hostile universe/galaxy would militarize their entire population to ensure their survival. All of the things they need would be made by their military forces so some of them would still be farmers and things like that but they all would be warriors first. In a race that lives as long as the Eldar do their battle skills would be above the trained guardsman because they have had hundreds of years to perfect it. Grand Master human martial artists have far less time than that to perfect their art and they are incredible warriors. A being that lives for hundreds of years would be even more incredible than that.

While I think it is interesting that guardians do exist, it doesn't really make much sense. Especially with the type of weaponry they gave them. Incredibly short ranged with no type of targetting system to get a better aim. For a race that is supposedly as technologically advanced as the Eldar are portrayed to be it's completely rediculous. When they get inside a tank they should have advanced targetting equipment that would allow them to be better shots than a guardsman (after all, they aren't afraid of technology like the Imperium, they embrace it.)

Everything about the concept of the guardian to me just doesn't fit and I hope they remove them completely from the game or change them somehow so they seem to fit better into what a race facing extinction would actually do with their population. And sitting around writing poetry isn't a luxury the Eldar can afford.

I agree with most of what you say, but totally getting rid of Guardians wouldn't make sense at all. The Eldar are supposedly on the brink of extinction, so utilitising as many bodies as they can to defend themselves is very logical. For example, Iyanden were forced to go further than this by resorting to resurrecting the dead to fight for them after the numbers of their living were significantly reduced.

What doesn't make sense in the current game is that for such an advanced race technologically (and mentally), why do their civilian militia have short ranged weapons? The Shuriken Catapult should be far more deadly than the basic Lasgun of the Imperium, but unless it can actually reach the target, it is useless. Some one mentioned that the short range suits the Eldar because they are fast and agile, but soldiers are almost always going to survive longer if they can stand behind cover and shoot from a distance. It is not often that Guardians get to fire more than one volley of their Catapults before they are assaulted which is where they are even more likely to suffer losses and do poorly. The Catapult needs to have a longer range to keep Guardians alive for longer and to make them more useful.

Regarding the question of changes to WS/BS, this is far less important and fluffy than an increase to the Initiative of most units. Eldar should be physically and mentally superior to humans. Traditionally Eldar have had the same S and T as humans, but their skill levels and speed should basically always be above that of Guardsmen. Space Marines are obviously super humans, so at least some of their stats should be equal. Aspect Warriors would excel in some areas, but in reality, only versus Guardsmen, not Marines. Exarchs, Phoenic Lords and Autarchs would be an exception. I6 across the board for Aspect warriors and at least 5 for Guardians would be excellent...

[BooTMGSG]

I disagree with the idea that they are "to heavily armored". Just look at Incubi(the DE mirror to the Aspect Warriors). 3+ (Heavy armor) with fleet. I don't think that argument holds up that great to begin with for Scorpions.. A unit that relies on stealth and infiltration(which arguably to be good at would require some sort of agility and finesse and speed), but is so heavily armored that they are incapable of being.. agile? Which as aforementioned would probably be a good trait to have if you were involved in infiltration and stealth.

If we wanted to take this a step further.. Space Marines can have a whole army with Fleet of Foot(C:SM with Shrike) and they are definitely less agile and more armored than anything in the (Dark)Elder Codecies. In fact this Space Marine Fleet even applies to Terminators. So no.. I don't think the "Scorpions are too heavily armored to be fleet of foot" argument has any weight in the fluff or in game design.

I could see the argument against it for Dark Reapers.. Lugging around large guns and all. Not so much for Scorpions and Warp Spiders.

For the first part agile does not necessarily mean mobile. Scorpions are slower than banshees, but tend to sneak up on your emerging from cover to ambush you. Some sneak attack rule and move through cover would make more sense than fleet.
However, I do get your point that given the number of other armies that have fleet, it is unreasonable for SS to be left in the slow lane.
Personally I would get rid of those other units having fleet, but since that is out of the question, I guess the banshees need to be sped up. Perhaps as they are rumoured to be introducing different lvls of a universal skills, there might be the Addition of Fleet(2) where you get to role two dice for your run and pick the highest

[Hendarion]

This thread is for wishlisting, while we should keep the overall idea of game balance in mind I suppose, we aren't designing the next Eldar codex so I figure we can suggest whatever we want.
(...)
BTW, why do you feel the need to tell us to stop doing and saying certain things, is it hurting you or something? As long as we're not throwing around flames I"m pretty sure it's free discussion.

It is free discussion. But if I wishlist my Guardians to cost 10 points, have WS, BS of 6, S8 weapons with 48" range and AP1 with an armour safe of 2+, then this is free discussion and wishlist too, but nobody will take me serious. I hope you are interested in a discussion that is serious and keeping game-balance in mind aswell. Designing an unbalanced game is nothing I would wish for. No, really. That won't be any challenge or fun for me and most likely not for my opponents either. See my point?


@bignbadbum:
Absolutely agree. Your example about Banshees is what I'm talking about. Sure, make units better. But use a smart choice to reach that goal and give them something that will do that in the situation they are meant to use it in, not increase stats which endure for the entire game and give them a bonus when they shouldn't get one. Banshees always had been strong at first-strike... well... at least the idea existed always, the execution is questionable in the latest Codex. Make them strike hard in case they assault. But not all the time like WS5 would.

Guardians are rubbish? Give them a protective field which only allows enemies to assault them if they had been 2" away from the unit in the assault phase or that give them a 90° or 180° wide cover-save of 4+. If you catch them from behind, let them die as usual. Or let them move in the assault-phase even if they fired their guns - like Jetbikes do - to represent their speed for which they are said to sacrifice their armour for.
There are ways to fix them more than increased stats, increased armour save and longer ranged weapons. Much more interesting ways!

[Bubble Ghost]

What doesn't make sense in the current game is that for such an advanced race technologically (and mentally), why do their civilian militia have short ranged weapons? The Shuriken Catapult should be far more deadly than the basic Lasgun of the Imperium, but unless it can actually reach the target, it is useless. Some one mentioned that the short range suits the Eldar because they are fast and agile, but soldiers are almost always going to survive longer if they can stand behind cover and shoot from a distance. It is not often that Guardians get to fire more than one volley of their Catapults before they are assaulted which is where they are even more likely to suffer losses and do poorly.

That last bit is what I meant about 40K's crappy core rules being the problem, not the concept of a short ranged weapon. See, it fits in the context of 40K's background. 40K is a mythological setting that is as much about demons and angels whacking each other with axes as it is about tanks and rocket launchers, and that's the context Eldar armament has to make sense in. And it does. How the hell are you supposed to get anywhere near 10 guys with shuriken catapults in order to assault them? You'd get diced into croutons. The shuriken catapult would be a perfect defensive weapon. It's the crummy tabletop rules, not anything intuitive or realistic, that forces them to stop and stand motionless within the enemy's "assault range".

All this said, I don't think a bump to 18" is incompatible with any of that, and I wouldn't be surprised if GW's blunt instrument "buff everything" approach leads to something along those lines. I also think a lasblaster option would make sense in the background, although if it turned up in the game, I would worry that the aforementioned crappy game rules would mean that shuriken catapults never got used.

I still like the idea of giving them huge defensive boosts. Count as defensive grenades, and assaulting enemy units count as moving through Difficult and Dangerous terrain as they fight through the blizzard of projectiles. Or perhaps they get to shoot at Initiative 10 instead of attacking in the first round of combat, although that would make Storm Guardians a bit redundant, and the howls of indignation from Tau players would be audible from orbit.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Personally I favour giving Eldar, especially Shuriken Catapults, pinning as that would emphasis there supposed mobility advantage (that the current rules don't really represent), however that is in a mythical version of the game where Pinning (or a concept like that. I rather like the FoW version actually) actually does something. But I think this also goes back to Bubble Ghost's argument. There isn't anything inherently wrong with a short ranged Shuriken catapult, however the way it interacts with the game rules means it's a very poor weapon, especially in the hands of Guardians. I prefer them as medium range support for Aspects that can then do the up-close action, but I think the assessment that Eldars to a large extend is trying to play a different game and that's why they don't seem to fit is actually quite true.

[Bergen Beerbelly]

I have to ask everyone that thinks the Shuriken Catapult is a fine weapon for guardians a question. Have you ever seen what militaries give their soldiers when they are trying to defend a hill or a point in a battle that they are trying to keep out of the hands of of the enemy forces? Do they give them short ranged fully automatic pistols? Because that is exactly what the Shuriken Catapult is in the current rules.

No, they don't give them that kind of weapon. They give them fully automatic weapons with a much longer range than a pistol can reach. Why? Because it is unrealistic to expect troops to defend a position on the battlefield with a weapon that only reaches out to touch someone at the range of a pistol or a shotgun. This has been proven time and time again in warfare.

It is rediculous to believe that any race as supposedly advanced as the Eldar would resort to such a stupid tactic during war. Humans aren't even that stupid.

I think a fine fix for it if they plan on keeping it that range would be to allow the Guardian Defenders the ability to choose wether they wish to move and shoot or shoot and move. And if they chose to shoot, then move, they could not embark on a vehicle as that would be too much. But shoot and move or move and shoot would make them at least a little better. They could at least stay out of range of an assult (which is why armies give their defenders longer ranged weapons in the first place...so they can engage the enemy without fear of assult)

[althathir]

More options for HQ units to show other paths is not a bad idea, but Exarch powers should not be mixed up in this. All Aspect Warriors train with the same weapons as each other, sticking to that training 'path' before they leave. Autarchs travel down many warrior paths, so become familiar with a wide variety of gear- but only the basic gear. Exarchs fall off the 'path'- they become trapped as one specific warrior type for the rest of their lives, and hence have the time to learn about new skills and weapons (oddly assisted by a severe case of multiple personality disorder).
An Exarch HQ choice, other than Phoenix Lords, may be an interesting option. I especially like the Court of the Young King idea (mainly because it already has background).

It goes without saying that some Aspects will need different Exarch powers, and Autarchs need a Master Strategist rules tweak. I wouldn't be against it if some of these powers could give people the special rules they all seem to want, as that way the 'crutch' is optional.

For Autarchs I think a couple of new weapon options are reasonable, not the exarch gear, but a craftworld is bound to have some exotic gear lying around (like Yriel's spear) that could make them a bit a more interesting. For a example a power weapon that adds +1 str like a frostblade, it would make them a bit better in CC but not have phoenix lord damage potential either.

Master Strategiest is hard to make suggestions for because its very dependent on what changes in 6th. Which is somewhat frustrating because IMO its a big opportunity for GW to make eldar interesting.

I agree about getting rid of some of the crutches, eldar are down right now but in alot of ways they've been more fun in 5th than they were in 4th. The main thing I'm hoping for is that the craftworlds are still viable, and that the troops get boosted a little bit.

I have to ask everyone that thinks the Shuriken Catapult is a fine weapon for guardians a question. Have you ever seen what militaries give their soldiers when they are trying to defend a hill or a point in a battle that they are trying to keep out of the hands of of the enemy forces? Do they give them short ranged fully automatic pistols? Because that is exactly what the Shuriken Catapult is in the current rules.

No, they don't give them that kind of weapon. They give them fully automatic weapons with a much longer range than a pistol can reach. Why? Because it is unrealistic to expect troops to defend a position on the battlefield with a weapon that only reaches out to touch someone at the range of a pistol or a shotgun. This has been proven time and time again in warfare.

It is rediculous to believe that any race as supposedly advanced as the Eldar would resort to such a stupid tactic during war. Humans aren't even that stupid.

I think a fine fix for it if they plan on keeping it that range would be to allow the Guardian Defenders the ability to choose wether they wish to move and shoot or shoot and move. And if they chose to shoot, then move, they could not embark on a vehicle as that would be too much. But shoot and move or move and shoot would make them at least a little better. They could at least stay out of range of an assult (which is why armies give their defenders longer ranged weapons in the first place...so they can engage the enemy without fear of assult)

The thing with eldar is there is a lot of tradition. From what i've been told shurcats we're considered OP in 2nd, so they got nerfed. In 3rd there wasn't a run move so we were a lot more mobile than basically everyone but DE, and we could take small guardian squads with weapon platforms which actually kinda fit the fluff. They were small support squads that basically hid and took potshots with their heavy. The 4th edition book tried to move guardians away from that role, by making the minium squad size higher because some people considered min sized squads with heavies . With transports being nerfed into the ground for everyone else, guardians still were fairly decent, but DA were really good in a format with less mech, and fit better in mechdar lists which were OTT.

Regarless thats where they fell out of favor, and after the DA book GW started pushing troops quite a bit harder than they had in the past and it snowballed (moreso with the changes to scoring in 5th). Sorry for the rant its just people are alot harder on Kelly's dex than they really had any right be. All things considered it held up well for an army that was released in the middle of 4th edition during a simplier is better design phase. In which I don't think 5th was anywhere near set in stone.

tl;dr: Shurcats weren't that bad until recently so it wasn't quite as dumb as it appears now.