Eldar Wishlist.

[dæl]

How would people feel if the warp spiders assault phase jump was between 1-3 d6 of the players choosing and any double results in a casualty? So you could choose whether to play it safe and go d6, or if you really need it then 2/3d6 and have to deal with a possible casualty.

[althathir]

Althathir: I LIKE those ideas...

Thanks, to be honest I came up with the ideal because I think our troop choices are too specialized, at least in part because GW has to differentiate them from each other.

At first I was thinking of some sort of origin system, but now I think simply letting the player choose to have either dire avengers, storm guardians, or wraithguard as troops with the other two choices counting as elites would work well.

Then our troops would have more natural roles, rangers would be babysitters/scouts, jetbikes would be a speedy objective stealer, and the unit the player chooses would be the generalist, for da I think just adding the ability to have different ammo types (for example one could be a 12 inch range str 6 ap - shot for use againist vehicles), and for wraiths simply making the 5 man units be able to be counted as troops would be a huge boost (units of 10 with spiritseers cost almost as much as other armies deathstars ). All the current craftworld troops would be still be represented, and each would be quite a bit more viable there would still have to be other fixes for these units but I think its a solid suggestion on my part.

Of course the other problem is the similarity between Guardians and Dire Avengers.

Even in 2nd ed it was a difficult balance. For a full squad of 7 Dire Avengers (22pts each 15, 154pts in total) you could get 11 shuricat Guardians (14pts each). I loved my DAs but Guardians were a better deal.

Giving DAs longer ranged guns was a good way of giving them an edge but the problem was that it left Guardians neglected. In my view Guardians need to be brought up closer to the current level of DAs and DAs need to have a more flexible battlefield role.

I would like to see DAs become a unit which combines the shooting ability of a Kabalite Warrior (sans heavy/special weapons) with the tarpit abilities of Wyches. I don't think this would be unreasonable for their current cost. If there is going to be a cc element to the squad then it needs to actually be useful rather than the waste of points that it currently is. Up the shimmershield to 4+ inv in combat, give them 2 attacks each (new wargear), maybe even defensive grenades and make them stubborn. They are supposed to be 'immovable in defence' after all.

If DAs can hold up dedicated assault units for a turn or two then that would really give them unique role for a front line Troop not only in the army but in the 40k system as a whole.

I also really like the idea of 'Support Guardians' as a HS choice.

I like stubborn for DA's, but I don't like living tarpit units in eldar forces, I'd rather see ammo types, or if they get grenades allow them to purchase haywires as well to add flexibility (as long as their solely anti-infantry people will find them underwhelming).

That said there really isn't a way around them being similiar, its more making it a tough decision or at least one that people don't look at you like your crazy person when you put on or the other down.

I'd like to see a psyker unit between Farseers and Eldrad. Farseers are so limited these days with anti-psyker flooding the game so we see a unique character just way too much.

I'm pretty sure we will see this, if mastery levels are true than we might have quite a bit of control over just how powerful are psychers are. Though to be honest part of the problem with eldrad is that he is just that good.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

I like stubborn for DA's, but I don't like living tarpit units in eldar forces, I'd rather see ammo types, or if they get grenades allow them to purchase haywires as well to add flexibility (as long as their solely anti-infantry people will find them underwhelming).

That said there really isn't a way around them being similiar, its more making it a tough decision or at least one that people don't look at you like your crazy person when you put on or the other down.

The thing is they already are a tarpit unit - just not a very good one. They can get a 5+ inv save in combat and reduce the enemy's attacks by 1. Those are tarpit abilities. For what other reason would you take them? The problem is that they are too costly and don't work particularly well so they will remain a marginal ability. The next codex should either make them useful or get rid of them altogether.

I would rather have abilities that are useful and costed appropriately. DAs have always had a 'cc' element to them, dating back to the old exarch model with the power sword. And all I'm really advocating is an increase the shimmershield save (just isn't worth it over twin catapults at 5+ inv) and make them stubborn. The +1A would be nice (I'm thinking retractable vambrace blades similar to those Guardians are armed with in DoW) but would really only help against non MEQ armies (it would actually put them on close to a par with tacticals in CC).

[althathir]

The thing is they already are a tarpit unit - just not a very good one. They can get a 5+ inv save in combat and reduce the enemy's attacks by 1. Those are tarpit abilities. For what other reason would you take them? The problem is that they are too costly and don't work particularly well so they will remain a marginal ability. The next codex should either make them useful or get rid of them altogether.

I would rather have abilities that are useful and costed appropriately. DAs have always had a 'cc' element to them, dating back to the old exarch model with the power sword. And all I'm really advocating is an increase the shimmershield save (just isn't worth it over twin catapults at 5+ inv) and make them stubborn. The +1A would be nice (I'm thinking retractable vambrace blades similar to those Guardians are armed with in DoW) but would really only help against non MEQ armies (it would actually put them on close to a par with tacticals in CC).

I never really saw the tarpit abilities they had as useful. In 3rd I used them because I was stubborn, at the time only the exarch had a tarpit ability but I only ran exarches for the diresword and seriously there really wasn't a justification for the unit based on usefulness guardians were at the time clearly better. In 4th after the new dex I used them both on foot and in mech lists, and kept them fairly cheap but at the time our tanks were worth it. Eldar didn't need troops to score so we could compensate more with our other choices. It was alright that DA were that specialized because they just became a tool rather than the focus. Honestly I don't know if I ever had more than 3 troop choices on the board in 4th.

In 5th we need troops, guardians are lackluster, wraithguard are too expensive (in points and $), jetbikes are ok as objective stealers, rangers alright baby sitters, and DA are mainly used as a wave serpent tax. I tend to use bigger squads than most(7-10), but honestly exarches aren't worth it combine that with serpents being a bit overpriced and well lets just say I've earned every win in 5th since guard. They aren't easy to use, and mainly for me they hop out of vehicles and finish crippled units, or gang up on full ones. I've never used them as a tarpit unit, they're just wasted abilities.

I agree with your premise of making them useful or getting rid of them, but I don't think the answer is to make them a tarpit unit. Units like wyches work as tarpit units more because they have other abilities that force your opponent to make a difficult decision. Wyches are solid in CC for the points, more so with a good combat drug roll, and have the ability to take haywires which with their threat range and cost is a big deal. Their speed allows them to be placed in a situation where the opponent has to either let vehicles get blown up, sac a troop choice (for the most part they'll beat one), try an torrent them (best case for opposing player, but most wych units used like this have fnp, and they're cheap enough that there are commonly several squads of wyches) or put in an elite.

Dire Avengers don't force that reaction, they can only hurt most vehicles on the rear arc, have no answer for walker in cc (wyche's grenades can at least hit on 6, plus they may have a blast pistol in the squad), and while better againist shooting their shots don't have enough fire power to force most troops to want to close. Wraithguard on the other hand can (with their gun plus stats) so why DA into a role they aren't great at?

That said I don't think we're that far behind everyone else its just that our troops are so specialized that we have to use our elites to shore up their weaknesses, instead of having a strong base and picking our elites, HS, FA to make our lists fit our strengths.

[mercury14]

Well, one idea thrown about was having "elder" farseers, who can cast 1 more power than normal, and may have +1T -1I (and no jetbikes) due to starting to crystalize (which supposedly happened to really old and powerful seers). Considering farseers are supposed to be the premier (non-daemon) psykers in the setting having the casting abilities near to those of GK libbies shouldn't be too hard, right?

Sounds good.

Also I would like to see every Exarch have the option of buying psychic powers. I'd like them to work more like Warlocks if you pay the points for that upgrade... and for Warlocks to be buffed into something different and more remarkable.

[mercury14]

I never really saw the tarpit abilities they had as useful...

They're very useful as tarpit units, just not against the widest range of opponents. They're great at locking down things like TH termis but still get overrun by horde types, even if the horde isn't that large.

Asurmen + 10 DAs + Shimmer Exarch + Fortune + Doom = Humiliates heavy infantry.

(in a fluffy fun game)

[Spell_of_Destruction]

I agree with your premise of making them useful or getting rid of them, but I don't think the answer is to make them a tarpit unit. Units like wyches work as tarpit units more because they have other abilities that force your opponent to make a difficult decision. Wyches are solid in CC for the points, more so with a good combat drug roll, and have the ability to take haywires which with their threat range and cost is a big deal. Their speed allows them to be placed in a situation where the opponent has to either let vehicles get blown up, sac a troop choice (for the most part they'll beat one), try an torrent them (best case for opposing player, but most wych units used like this have fnp, and they're cheap enough that there are commonly several squads of wyches) or put in an elite.

Dire Avengers don't force that reaction, they can only hurt most vehicles on the rear arc, have no answer for walker in cc (wyche's grenades can at least hit on 6, plus they may have a blast pistol in the squad), and while better againist shooting their shots don't have enough fire power to force most troops to want to close. Wraithguard on the other hand can (with their gun plus stats) so why DA into a role they aren't great at?

That said I don't think we're that far behind everyone else its just that our troops are so specialized that we have to use our elites to shore up their weaknesses, instead of having a strong base and picking our elites, HS, FA to make our lists fit our strengths.

Perhaps I misled you by suggesting they should be more like wyches...I only meant at the most basic functional level.

The way I envisage DAs functioning as a 'tarpit' unit is as a lynchpin of the Eldar force. They are primarily a shooting unit but with the changes I'm proposing they would also be able to engage enemy units in assault without getting slaughtered (something most Eldar units struggle with) but won't be able to do much damage themselves.

This could serve a couple of tactical functions. (1) It helps them 'hold the line'. They have the 'immovable in defence' tagline. With these changes they can hold off dedicated CC units for a turn or two. It would make them a lot more useful as objective holders. (2) They can tie up enemy units for the dedicated assault units - you could for example lock the enemy unit in place and set up a charge with Banshees next turn. They would also be able to better support dedicated cc units.

So they would fulfill a very different role to Wyches.

[althathir]

They're very useful as tarpit units, just not against the widest range of opponents. They're great at locking down things like TH termis but still get overrun by horde types, even if the horde isn't that large.

Asurmen + 10 DAs + Shimmer Exarch + Fortune + Doom = Humiliates heavy infantry.

(in a fluffy fun game)

But why, spend 300 plus points to tarpit a unit moreso only againist certain types? I'm fine with dire avengers having access to abilities that allow them to tarpit, I just don't see it as their primary focus, and if they increase those abilities that is what it will be IMO. Avengers aren't severely overcosted, I'd say 2 points, and if we're gonna back to 12 I want them to be able to threaten more things (mainly vehicles cause I can't see them nerfing 33 dollar 35 point models that hard). Our troops need to be more general so that instead of picking elites to cover their weaknesses we're actually building strengths.

Wraithguard also complicate it because they're most likely a troop (or can be unlocked as one), and they're kinda built to be tarpits (plus a CC wraithguard unit has been popular on the wishlists for eldar since I started playing).

Perhaps I misled you by suggesting they should be more like wyches...I only meant at the most basic functional level.

The way I envisage DAs functioning as a 'tarpit' unit is as a lynchpin of the Eldar force. They are primarily a shooting unit but with the changes I'm proposing they would also be able to engage enemy units in assault without getting slaughtered (something most Eldar units struggle with) but won't be able to do much damage themselves.

This could serve a couple of tactical functions. (1) It helps them 'hold the line'. They have the 'immovable in defence' tagline. With these changes they can hold off dedicated CC units for a turn or two. It would make them a lot more useful as objective holders. (2) They can tie up enemy units for the dedicated assault units - you could for example lock the enemy unit in place and set up a charge with Banshees next turn. They would also be able to better support dedicated cc units.

So they would fulfill a very different role to Wyches.

Its not so much that I want them to work like wyches, as much as I think tarpit units need to have an ability that makes the opponent have to consider engaging them on the tarpit unit's terms. Wyches have the threat to force a response, and because they can affect more types of units they succeed at it. What your describing doesn't have that, defensively they're effectively a speed bump, worse at least for this ruleset, they don't provide any anti-vehicle to protect whatever static units are behind them or prevent them from being tank shocked off of an objective (wyches have grenades/blast pistol to scare off vehicles). On offense they can tie up dedicated assault troops for a turn or two but its very hard for that to provide a return on points, and with our army being elite heavy we don't have to numbers to benefit from it as much as our dark kin do.

If the tarpitting is like it is now and completely optional I wouldn't mind it, but if thats where they get a boost then like you said "make them useful or get rid of them". I won't play a specialized army that doesn't that doesn't have more generalized troops in 6th (assuming scoring is similiar) I don't hate myself that much. Thats pretty much killed us for an entire edition, there has to be some more flexibility added, and hopefully for each craftworld style list.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

I doubt we'll see a greater diversity of options for aspects. They have always been designed around the principle that all members of the squad bar the exarch are armed with the same weapons. Maybe GW will be generous and start handing out plasma and haywire grenades to Aspects but I don't envisage, for example, DAs getting access to special weapons.

One of the reasons I'm completely against "Guardian Vets" is that no one will take DAs if BS 4 Guardians with multiple weapon options can be taken. I'd rather see a more creative approach taken to some of the challenges that Eldar face in the current system.

[althathir]

I doubt we'll see a greater diversity of options for aspects. They have always been designed around the principle that all members of the squad bar the exarch are armed with the same weapons. Maybe GW will be generous and start handing out plasma and haywire grenades to Aspects but I don't envisage, for example, DAs getting access to special weapons.

One of the reasons I'm completely against "Guardian Vets" is that no one will take DAs if BS 4 Guardians with multiple weapon options can be taken. I'd rather see a more creative approach taken to some of the challenges that Eldar face in the current system.

Right thats why I like ammo types , seriously a str 6 shot would do wonders for making DA more flexible. While still focusing on the shurcat.

Agree on the guardian vets, thats why I like the ideal of having people have a choice between a few generalist choices with the others becoming elites. 5 man wraithguard troop squads would be nice, and for avengers, ammo types, haywires, or even something as simple as letting warlocks join any unit would help out. Furthermore storm guardians would still have a worse save & close ranged weapons so their would be some drawbacks as well.

Granted it all comes back to what can score, if they go to percentages and let all infantry score and troops are more of a comp requirement then eldar will be in better shape.

[Reivax26]

I think that Scorpion, Banshee and Avenger exarchs should all have invul dodge saves. If wyches can get a 4+ invul in close combat, I see no reason why Banshees can't. Scorpions should have some ability like Ymgarl Genestealers that lets them hide in cover. Starcannons should have 3 shots and Shuriken Cannons should have 4.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

If people want Avenger to be more of a tarpit/interdiction/debuff unit would it be more fun and more appropriate if we gave them some offensive abilities along those lines rather than defenaive abilities? A good inv save and stubborn does not seem Eldarish to me in the alightest and frankly makes them a little boring. But if you give them say psychotropic rounds that could debilitate and so could actively go out and do something. Elder units to my mind should be active, rather than reactive or even worse, inactive units.

[Ravariel]

Right thats why I like ammo types , seriously a str 6 shot would do wonders for making DA more flexible. While still focusing on the shurcat.

How about flexbility in the Exarch Power Bladestorm? Make it variable like "+2S (Assaut 1), or +1 Shot, or Rending" chosen when the power is used, same disadvantages apply (no shooting next turn). That way they can deal with almost anything without being too overpowered. And honestly, I think they just need to ditch the 2-cat Exarch. It looks silly and doesn't fit their fluff very well (since when are Eldar footsoldiers Rambo 2-fisting AKs?). Give them the choice to ditch the cat to get a diresword and shimmershield, or upgrade their weapon to something between an Avenger Cat and a Cannon... mebbe S5 Ap 4? Eldar have a dearth of weaponry in that range, and 10 DA toss enough shots downrange that 2 more from another cat isn't that great. Granted, for 5 points, it's like adding another BS5 body to the table, and as such much better than other choices, but losing that isn't going to break anything.

If their range gets bumped to 24" (with corresponding bump of Guardian cats to 18"), with the flexibility of this version of Bladestorm, they're dangerous enough at range to make people want to charge them, have enough of a tarpit ability to hold for a turn or two before Banshees show up, and are differentiated enough from Guardians to make it a choice.

Granted, whatever new paradigm they're going to be working in with the new edition makes all of this 'listing kinda fluid.

[Rick Blaine]

In the context of the snap fire rumour (firing at BS1 when charged) I think Guardians could be given the ability to do it at full BS.

[megatrons2nd]

In the context of the snap fire rumour (firing at BS1 when charged) I think Guardians could be given the ability to do it at full BS.

Maybe that is what the overwatch rule will do.

[althathir]

If people want Avenger to be more of a tarpit/interdiction/debuff unit would it be more fun and more appropriate if we gave them some offensive abilities along those lines rather than defenaive abilities? A good inv save and stubborn does not seem Eldarish to me in the alightest and frankly makes them a little boring. But if you give them say psychotropic rounds that could debilitate and so could actively go out and do something. Elder units to my mind should be active, rather than reactive or even worse, inactive units.

This i'm more a fan of, but like I said I don't mind having the options to make DA a tarpit unit, I just don't want that to be the primary focus.

How about flexbility in the Exarch Power Bladestorm? Make it variable like "+2S (Assaut 1), or +1 Shot, or Rending" chosen when the power is used, same disadvantages apply (no shooting next turn). That way they can deal with almost anything without being too overpowered. And honestly, I think they just need to ditch the 2-cat Exarch. It looks silly and doesn't fit their fluff very well (since when are Eldar footsoldiers Rambo 2-fisting AKs?). Give them the choice to ditch the cat to get a diresword and shimmershield, or upgrade their weapon to something between an Avenger Cat and a Cannon... mebbe S5 Ap 4? Eldar have a dearth of weaponry in that range, and 10 DA toss enough shots downrange that 2 more from another cat isn't that great. Granted, for 5 points, it's like adding another BS5 body to the table, and as such much better than other choices, but losing that isn't going to break anything.

If their range gets bumped to 24" (with corresponding bump of Guardian cats to 18"), with the flexibility of this version of Bladestorm, they're dangerous enough at range to make people want to charge them, have enough of a tarpit ability to hold for a turn or two before Banshees show up, and are differentiated enough from Guardians to make it a choice.

Granted, whatever new paradigm they're going to be working in with the new edition makes all of this 'listing kinda fluid.

Yeah that would work as well, I'm kinding hoping the a lot of the aspect squads gain an ability without having to take an exarch. So dire avengers would have bladestorm or ammo types or whatever without needing one.

Your suggestuins are pretty close to what I was thinking, although I'd limit the range on the str 6 shot quite bit.

[RandomThoughts]

24" Shuricats, Hit & Run for all Eldar Jetbikes, more firepower for Guardians and Jetbikes, distinctive roles for all Aspects, Dire Avengers could for instance use 4+ Dodge Saves, Relentless, higher number of shots and a power that allows them to disengage from melee. In general I'd up BS, WS and probably even armor by 1. Wraithguard need 18" guns, and they have to stand their ground in melee - either count as monstrous (= ignores armor), or my personal favorite: use their guns in melee.
Scorpions would do great with Stealth and the appear anywhere on the board rule, although I'd much rather see it removed from the game entirely. Mobile flamer templates would be greatly appreciated (Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, whatever), and we seriously lack decent ranged AT. Banshees need furious attack, and personally I'd have the warcry activate without a failed LD test by the target. Potentially add dodge saves and/or arcane eldar technology that allows eldar power weapons to ignore Terminator Armor AND Storm Shield saves, and they would be awesome again. Reapers get back Eldar Missile Launchers and can ignore cover, so do Pathfinders (so that their awesome rifles actually make sense), who can also pick their targets from the enemy unit. Hawks also get dodge saves and Hit & Run, and their weapons become combo weapons with both Assault 3 36" sniper lasblasters and 24" Frak/Krak/Haywire grenade launchers.

Just a few ideas I had kicking around, some of them are probably to good, but feels about right to me (regarding fluff represented on the battlefield and everything)

[Cthell]

Since the fluff of shuriken weapons is all about trading effective range for rate of fire (A disk might be able to go as far as a needle [unlikely] but it's a lot less directionally stable), what about a straitforward +1 shot across the board? It might be a bit tricky for the pistols, and the scatter laser probably needs to gain even more shots (go the whole hog and bump it up to 6; that would mean it matches the rate of fire of a splinter cannon when mounted on a vehicle) but it would give a definite feel of "storm of shots"

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Since the fluff of shuriken weapons is all about trading effective range for rate of fire

Can we have the bits about tearing through flesh, bone and armour with easy as well then? That's been part of the describtion of Shuriken weapons a lot longer than the short ranged thing (it was only brough in after they had reduced the range of them).

[althathir]

24" Shuricats, Hit & Run for all Eldar Jetbikes, more firepower for Guardians and Jetbikes, distinctive roles for all Aspects, Dire Avengers could for instance use 4+ Dodge Saves, Relentless, higher number of shots and a power that allows them to disengage from melee. In general I'd up BS, WS and probably even armor by 1. Wraithguard need 18" guns, and they have to stand their ground in melee - either count as monstrous (= ignores armor), or my personal favorite: use their guns in melee.
Scorpions would do great with Stealth and the appear anywhere on the board rule, although I'd much rather see it removed from the game entirely. Mobile flamer templates would be greatly appreciated (Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, whatever), and we seriously lack decent ranged AT. Banshees need furious attack, and personally I'd have the warcry activate without a failed LD test by the target. Potentially add dodge saves and/or arcane eldar technology that allows eldar power weapons to ignore Terminator Armor AND Storm Shield saves, and they would be awesome again. Reapers get back Eldar Missile Launchers and can ignore cover, so do Pathfinders (so that their awesome rifles actually make sense), who can also pick their targets from the enemy unit. Hawks also get dodge saves and Hit & Run, and their weapons become combo weapons with both Assault 3 36" sniper lasblasters and 24" Frak/Krak/Haywire grenade launchers.

Just a few ideas I had kicking around, some of them are probably to good, but feels about right to me (regarding fluff represented on the battlefield and everything)

The main problem I would have with this changes would have more to do with how much each model would cost. Most of of our infantry is probably overcosted, but the prices themselves lead to the forces being a proper size for an elite force IMO. These changes would boost most of the models prices up if they were priced correctly, and thats where t3 rears its ugly head. Even with 3+ saves, if you get close to 20 points per model eldar will struggle, and foot lists not based on wraithguard will be fairly horrible based on my experiences with sisters of battle. Its why I tend to be fairly conservative on my suggestions (well at least I try to be )