Eldar Wishlist.

[daa6]

I have commented before, but one other thing i would like to see is an effective use of the warlocks used in CC, make witchblades rending, retain their 2+ to wound, and against armour double strength first - so (Strength 6 +d6 and Rending against Armour means they dont loose [I]that[I] advantage/ability/strength...

Also up the BS of the vehicles to 4 !! Please...

[TheDoctor]

The main problem I would have with this changes would have more to do with how much each model would cost. Most of of our infantry is probably overcosted, but the prices themselves lead to the forces being a proper size for an elite force IMO. These changes would boost most of the models prices up if they were priced correctly, and thats where t3 rears its ugly head. Even with 3+ saves, if you get close to 20 points per model eldar will struggle, and foot lists not based on wraithguard will be fairly horrible based on my experiences with sisters of battle. Its why I tend to be fairly conservative on my suggestions (well at least I try to be )

Yes, but then it would probably feel like one was playing Eldar. Small, elite strike teams of aspect warriors backed up by the (relatively) cheaper guardians; preferably out of a webway portal.

[insectum7]

No, see, that still doesn't work very well. The Imperium might not have quite as much S6, but between multi-lasers, plasma guns (of any size) and autocannons its armies could (and can) still take on lighter vehicles. How efficient it was in 4E and is in 5E is another story, but it's not like they need(ed) lascannons for everything. With eldar, the lighter guns can somewhat work on AV 10 and 11, but that doesn't mean the more powerful ones should be worthless there - and they are your only chance against AV 12 or higher. So the fact that the lascannon is better against AV 10-13 (it outranges the lance against 13) at notably lower cost is, imo, quite significant; the niche where the lance is superior in some ways is simply too small for what you are paying for it. In a way, its problem is the same as that of several specialist units in the Eldar codex : expensive, only somewhat worth it in a very narrow capacity, and poor at anything else. That doesn't mean the lance is completely worthless, just that as it is, it is underpowered for its points (or overcosted for its profile). That is why I'd like to see it at AP 1 and lower points - perhaps the same as the lascannon or at most 5 more. It should be able to effectively (and efficiently) deal with any armour, being the heavyweight among a more versatile, cheaper EML (and starcannon, if it becomes S7) and a faster-firing, but less efficient pulse laser.

(bold mine)

Sorry for taking so long to reply, been crazy busy.

I think you are selling short the capability of entire Eldar squads to have weapons that deal well with vehicles. Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Seer Councils with Singing Spears (a 12" Lascannon vs. vehicles). And again, I'll mention Warp Spiders who bring their multitude of S 6 shots. I honestly think the intent is that Eldar handle vehicles differently than the Imperium, and put a heavier burden on the maneuverability of their troops and platforms.

None of this mentions D-Cannons and Vibro Cannons either, both of which rate well against vehicles. I'd say that they are a much bigger problem for the Eldar than the BL, because when was the last time you saw those actually taken? I'd worry less about how Bright Lances compare point for point against Lascannons, and more about how to make these very flavorful and cool weapons into viable anti-vehicle alternatives.

BL is fine, it might need a knock to it's points but because it's comparable to the DL I'd just leave the stats as is.

[RandomThoughts]

The main problem I would have with this changes would have more to do with how much each model would cost. Most of of our infantry is probably overcosted, but the prices themselves lead to the forces being a proper size for an elite force IMO. These changes would boost most of the models prices up if they were priced correctly, and thats where t3 rears its ugly head. Even with 3+ saves, if you get close to 20 points per model eldar will struggle, and foot lists not based on wraithguard will be fairly horrible based on my experiences with sisters of battle. Its why I tend to be fairly conservative on my suggestions (well at least I try to be )

But if that's the issue, and the models die too fast for what they cost, then the pricing is simply off. Awesome stuff has to cost less on fragile models than it does on sturdy ones.

As a side-note, I'd actually propose a +1 across the board on all Eldar armor saves. 2+ Scorpions and Reapers and 3+ Banshees, Hawks and Avengers with 4++ dodge saves would be quite nice, especially with the advanced tech and every single live counts themes. hehe

Yes, but then it would probably feel like one was playing Eldar. Small, elite strike teams of aspect warriors backed up by the (relatively) cheaper guardians; preferably out of a webway portal.

This!

[MajorWesJanson]

What I would like to see for Eldar Guardians- treat them as the citizen levy they are. They are not really specialized at anything, but they are there to support the proper warfighting aspects. Make them a 10-30 strong unit which can take one heavy weapon platform per 10 Eldar. If they don't take heavy weapons, they can upgrade into Storm Guardians. For each unit of Guardians, you can take a unit of Guardian Jetbikes and/or a support weapon battery in the same troop slot.

[dæl]

But if that's the issue, and the models die too fast for what they cost, then the pricing is simply off. Awesome stuff has to cost less on fragile models than it does on sturdy ones.

As a side-note, I'd actually propose a +1 across the board on all Eldar armor saves. 2+ Scorpions and Reapers and 3+ Banshees, Hawks and Avengers with 4++ dodge saves would be quite nice, especially with the advanced tech and every single live counts themes. hehe

Can't get behind the idea of TEQ scorpions and MEQ banshees, could maybe see reapers with 2+ and relentless, banshees and harlies need dodge in combat on par with wytches though. But fragility is what makes eldar eldarish, another army of 3+ everywhere wouldn't sit well with me.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

I have commented before, but one other thing i would like to see is an effective use of the warlocks used in CC, make witchblades rending, retain their 2+ to wound, and against armour double strength first - so (Strength 6 +d6 and Rending against Armour means they dont loose [I]that[I] advantage/ability/strength...

Also up the BS of the vehicles to 4 !! Please...

I would move Warlocks to Elites (don't understand why its necessary to have a Farseer to include them) and drop their cost to 18-20pts. They have been a popular unit in competitive scene (particularly the jetlock variety) but, even bare they are actually very expensive when you compare them to the other assault choices. They are mainly favoured because of the inv save + fortune combo (Another example of the cost and effectiveness of psychic powers being factored into an Eldar unit's price and profile?).

I don't think rending is the answer. We already have rending Harlequins and Banshees with power weapons. Warlocks have a good niche against MCs, vehicles and high T low Sv units. I'd like to see more 'enhance' style powers which can be used to boost the squad (and Guardian squads they join).

[althathir]

But if that's the issue, and the models die too fast for what they cost, then the pricing is simply off. Awesome stuff has to cost less on fragile models than it does on sturdy ones.

As a side-note, I'd actually propose a +1 across the board on all Eldar armor saves. 2+ Scorpions and Reapers and 3+ Banshees, Hawks and Avengers with 4++ dodge saves would be quite nice, especially with the advanced tech and every single live counts themes. hehe



This!

Why? The base cost should reflect lower toughness but the awesome stuff should cost the same.

The current prices are good baselines, and there is no way an avenger with a 3+ and 4++ dodge would be anywhere near 12-13 points. Then you end up with a durable unit without much firepower thats too expensive (kinda sounds like a wave serpent ). When you fix the offense you end up with super expensive t3 guys, and super expensive one wound models rarely work (and when they do they're like th & SS termies and every screams at the sight of them.

I would move Warlocks to Elites (don't understand why its necessary to have a Farseer to include them) and drop their cost to 18-20pts. They have been a popular unit in competitive scene (particularly the jetlock variety) but, even bare they are actually very expensive when you compare them to the other assault choices. They are mainly favoured because of the inv save + fortune combo (Another example of the cost and effectiveness of psychic powers being factored into an Eldar unit's price and profile?).

I don't think rending is the answer. We already have rending Harlequins and Banshees with power weapons. Warlocks have a good niche against MCs, vehicles and high T low Sv units. I'd like to see more 'enhance' style powers which can be used to boost the squad (and Guardian squads they join).

I would rather see warlocks be listed as an upgrade in more unit entries then they are now (for example for DA, HB, etc.), and have the unit stay a retinue style choice. Mainly because our elite slot is already crammed full, and also because I'm a fan of the enhance style powers as well and its another way to give our units a bit of flexibility (which is needed to a degree).

I'm sure their price will go down in the next book, 4th tended to overcost elite style generalist units way too much, and people hated the ulthwe seer lists that ran the old warlocks with a ccw & sp, as cheap meat shields.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

Why? The base cost should reflect lower toughness but the awesome stuff should cost the same.

The current prices are good baselines, and there is no way an avenger with a 3+ and 4++ dodge would be anywhere near 12-13 points. Then you end up with a durable unit without much firepower thats too expensive (kinda sounds like a wave serpent ). When you fix the offensive you end up with super expensive t3 guys, and super expensive one wound models rarely work (and when they do they're like th & SS termies and every screams at the sight of them.



I would rather see warlocks be listed as an upgrade in more unit entries then they are now (for example for DA, HB, etc.), and have the unit stay a retinue style choice. Mainly because our elite slot is already crammed full, and also because I'm a fan of the enhance style powers as well and its another way to give our units a bit of flexibility (which is needed to a degree).

I'm sure their price will go down in the next book, 4th tended to overcost elite style generalist units way too much, and people hated the ulthwe seer lists that ran the old warlocks with a ccw & sp, as cheap meat shields.

I agree that no one wants to return to 11pt Warlocks armed with CCWs and SPs. I have a feeling that they will move to Elites as GW have been moving away from HQ retinue style units (Incubi also moved to Elites). Elites is a busy slot but as long as you're not spamming Fire Dragons I don't think it would give us too many problems. Plus, it looks like we may be moving to a % system.

I'm not sure about Warlocks joining Aspect Squads. Maybe they could include a higher level Warlock who can be attached to units in the same way as a Commisar. The main problem I envisage is that it could lead to Exarchs being overlooked in favour of Warlocks. It would be pretty hard to overlook 'Enhance' if it became an option for HBs.

I think Warlocks have great potential to help make Guardians a more attractive choice. I've been toying with the idea of a +1 BS upgrade power or maybe a 'reroll 1s' power. The only problem is that functionally it doubles up with Guide. I feel that Guide has been somewhat marginalised since Doom was added (obvious reason - Doom allows rerolls for any number of squads, Guide only for a single squad) and is only really useful for Warwalkers. Our powers are good but I think that Farseers are a little overcosted particularly the amount paid for Spirit Stones to cast another power. I fully expect Farseers to be given a Mastery Level of 2 in the new codex.

[althathir]

I agree that no one wants to return to 11pt Warlocks armed with CCWs and SPs. I have a feeling that they will move to Elites as GW have been moving away from HQ retinue style units (Incubi also moved to Elites). Elites is a busy slot but as long as you're not spamming Fire Dragons I don't think it would give us too many problems. Plus, it looks like we may be moving to a % system.

I'm not sure about Warlocks joining Aspect Squads. Maybe they could include a higher level Warlock who can be attached to units in the same way as a Commisar. The main problem I envisage is that it could lead to Exarchs being overlooked in favour of Warlocks. It would be pretty hard to overlook 'Enhance' if it became an option for HBs.

I think Warlocks have great potential to help make Guardians a more attractive choice. I've been toying with the idea of a +1 BS upgrade power or maybe a 'reroll 1s' power. The only problem is that functionally it doubles up with Guide. I feel that Guide has been somewhat marginalised since Doom was added (obvious reason - Doom allows rerolls for any number of squads, Guide only for a single squad) and is only really useful for Warwalkers. Our powers are good but I think that Farseers are a little overcosted particularly the amount paid for Spirit Stones to cast another power. I fully expect Farseers to be given a Mastery Level of 2 in the new codex.

They have been, and if there are ways to make aspects troops it would relieve pressure, that said the most recent codex went the opposite way with royal courts. The percentage system is the wild card, but I have no clue how that will shape out. I don't think fantasy really gives us to many clues, because it doesn't have transports and they have two categories for Hqs.

Honestly its just a thought, I just feel like eldar need to become a bit more flexible, otherwise you end up with what you have now. Where fire dragons are considered the auto-include unit because honestly they're our generalists. Making aspects super specialized is the other side of the debate but it scares me because back in 3rd eldar had such a reputation for tailoring, and thats where that path leads IMHO.

I'm really torn on guardians, to me they've never made sense, so while I like the ideal of a warlock power making them have higher bs, why not just give them bs 4, and a 4+ save. It blurs the line between them and dire avengers but thats always been the case. Then the fluff can be expanded a bit (explain the training the cilivilians go through), and they'll at least have the protection that the aspect warriors have (its not like avenger armour and guardian armour look that different).

Farseers are overpriced but I don't think its the spirit stones as much as the price for the powers themselves, when you look at other psychers I just can't see how their powers can count againist them as much as ours do. Again its more of an age problem (i can't remember anyone complaining about seers after our book got updated) than anything.

[Hazerdous2Health]

Witch blades have always seemed to have strange rules to me. Here you have this weapon that tears through heavily armored vehicles but if you put some extra armor on a guy they can't seem to do much more than scratch the paint. An example is how easily they can tear apart a dreadnought yet a terminator who is wearing "tactical dreadnought armor" is the near impossible to kill.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

Well that's more a peculiarity of the 40k armour system to be honest. It's a bit dumb to have one characteristic which deals with the ability to penetrate personal armour and another which deals with the ability to penetrate vehicle armour, particularly the way it is implemented in 40k.

The reason for this is that we're still using a stripped down version of 2nd ed's vehicle rules. It worked okay in 2nd edition due to the 'Damage' characteristic.

[RandomThoughts]

The main problem I would have with this changes would have more to do with how much each model would cost. Most of of our infantry is probably overcosted, but the prices themselves lead to the forces being a proper size for an elite force IMO. These changes would boost most of the models prices up if they were priced correctly, and thats where t3 rears its ugly head. Even with 3+ saves, if you get close to 20 points per model eldar will struggle, and foot lists not based on wraithguard will be fairly horrible based on my experiences with sisters of battle. Its why I tend to be fairly conservative on my suggestions (well at least I try to be )

Yes, but then it would probably feel like one was playing Eldar. Small, elite strike teams of aspect warriors backed up by the (relatively) cheaper guardians; preferably out of a webway portal.

Witch blades have always seemed to have strange rules to me. Here you have this weapon that tears through heavily armored vehicles but if you put some extra armor on a guy they can't seem to do much more than scratch the paint. An example is how easily they can tear apart a dreadnought yet a terminator who is wearing "tactical dreadnought armor" is the near impossible to kill.

THIS! I've been saying this exact thing for 2 years now!

[Spell_of_Destruction]

I'm with althathir on this one. In the current 40k system there is only so 'elite' you can go with a fragile army. Resilience is a huge asset and I think our units have a difficult enough time with T 3 at the moment without becoming even fewer in number.

This is a wishlist thread so everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, but if we're trying to keep the conversation within the realms of what we can realistically expect, then I think changes on the scale we saw in the DE codex are most likely. I don't expect significant changes to the stat line. I'd like to see some of the more maginal exarch powers become more useful (although what I'd really like to see is a separation of 'Exarch Powers' which are taken by the exarch and 'Aspect Powers' which are taken by the squad. It's dumb that the squad suddenly loses an ability if the Exarch dies).

I expect most of the Aspects (except Fire Dragons) will receive a bit of a boost as I think they are overcosted across the board. How this will be achieved I'm not sure, but the alternative is to reduce their cost. Some people are dead against this as it seemingly goes against the 'elite' army style. However, if they revamp warrior powers so they are all useful and are taken by the squad rather than the exarch you have cheaper 'base' aspect warriors who can be boosted by taking special abilities.

An example of this overcosting can be seen with DAs. If you take both exarch powers you are essentially paying 15pts per model which is a lot for a T3 4+ save model. It's not that I don't find both powers useful - I just can't justify paying that much for a DA squad. If DAs were 10-11pts per model then their final cost when the abilities are added on top would seem far more reasonable (although I personally feel that Bladestorm and Defend are both overcosted). The only alternative is to make the abilities standard to justify the current cost. I don't think that stat increases (with a few notable exceptions - 2A base for Banshees and Scorpions would obviously make a massive difference) would improve Aspects in the manner that some people believe they would. As althathir has pointed out, I think we would just end up with an army that is too fragile and too low on bodies to use effectively.

EDIT: I thought I would just add a further point. I like PK as a codex writer but my main concern if he writes the next codex is that he isn't any better at costing things appropriately than Messrs Ward and Cruddace. The DE codex was great but there are a few small pricing issues that suggest PK hadn't learned from small mistakes he made on the last Eldar codex. Incubi are a good example (when compared with my DA example above) - their 'exarch' powers could be useful but once you factor them in it's just too much to pay. Drazhar also suffers from the same problems as the Phoenix Lords - way too pricey and no inv save. This despite having had 4 years to reflect on his work for the Eldar codex.

[althathir]

I think they'll keep aspects at the same price, but with a couple of possible changes...

1) I think we'll see one of the squad buffs become tied to the unit (for example bladestorm for avengers), it makes the unit feel a bit more specialized than just having that aspects weapon.

2) the exarch will discounted and part of the intial cost of the squad. When you compare exarches to other squad leaders they end up being very expensive for the most part, because you have an upgrade cost, then an optional equipment cost, and finally whatever the abilities the cost.

Its also possible they combine both of those ideals or not.

As far as kelly and the DE book, I kinda wonder if it was a situation similiar to harlequins where it's rumoured that he wanted to boost them but GW wanted them to stay the same as they were in CWE. Which would apply with drazhar as well to degree because he is treated as a phoenix lord.

[Spell_of_Destruction]

I'm not necessarily against making certain powers 'standard' but how would this work from a design perspective? Would some powers be standard and some optional? How would this be determined? If they keep squad boosting exarch powers then it kind of muddies the waters. Why do some squad abilities rely on the presence of the exarch whereas others do not?

Continuing the discussion with DAs, you could argue that Bladestorm is more relevant to their core role. Players may not want to pay the extra cost associated with having Defend as a standard power as it is situational. You may want it if you are using Avengers as objective campers but you may not if you are using them in more of a support/offensive role. But if it stays an optional upgrade that leads to the issues I discussed in the first paragraph.

[althathir]

Well I'd probably go with...

DA - bladestorm it ties in with shurcat and if guardians get boosted I think this makes for an easy distinction
Striking Scorpion - I'd be tempted to suggest both current upgrade abilities (granted I think the dex would work better if scorps were aggressive scouts & banshees were our dedicated assault unit)
Fire Dragons - crack shot fits their fluff of attacking fortifications, if they change their gun again tank hunter may be used more as a balancing tool than anything
Banshees - Warshout but it would have to work differently, lots of solutions have been suggested (giving them 2A base would be nice as well)
shining spears - withdraw they just aren't an attrition unit so hit & run fits
Spiders - like banshees I think they would need something new, i'm honestly not familiar enough with them to feel as comfortable suggesting something
hawks - I'd suggest both current powers tbh, I'm just hoping they get rules that those models deserve
reapers - It really depends on their weapons, if they stay same maybe a indirect fire option, if they get EML or heavier weapon maybe something like a hydra making them good againist skimmers/fliers?

The powers listed would be standard, most would really bridge that 1-2 pt gap alot of our choices have when the cost is applied to the whole squad.

edit: for scorps I wouldn't add fleet if it up to me, and for hawks there would still have to be a fairly large price reduction.

2nd edit: I think there would still be room for optional powers, I just think having a standard ability would help make the units more cost effective.

[samzor]

Iv'e read a few posts in here. Nobody has addressed something i'd like yet (a lot of it already covered). Id still like my say!

In my opinion: Fire dragons death by tank explosion is just stupid. Imagine any army training its troops and along the way not realising that what they primarily do just doesnt work and is hugely risky...
Eldar training learn to shoot the melta as target practice would kill half the trainees after a dozen attempts against something that explodes. So the exarch would say to the surviving recruits 'all done, just do that on the battlefield without getting hit'

The obvious thing to me is just put an exception rule in for them. Fire dragons aspect armour being forged to withstand the heat of explosions and are trained to go to ground just before vehicle detonation. Get a 2+ maybe 3+ unmodified save when hit by a vehicle explosion. Simple and realistic. To make it balanced just compute the sum of probabilities for success against all vehicles in the game. If its overpowered raise the save by one or something.
Also, It does not need apply to any other situation eg: being shot at by heat weapons.
So at least now the typical outcome will be they survive the tank explosion and next turn everything guns into them because opponents dont like them. So it becomes a strategy outcome instead. Very simple, makes them Eldar again!

Also i dont like it how everyone has forgotten how nerfed warp spiders are now since 2nd edition. In my opinion: Smaller squads, more expensive units template weapon. Thats the whole point of a death spinner its a cloud of 1 molecule thick wire! Otherwise give them a totally different weapon at least admit what has been done does not fit the narrative.

Yes as people have suggested here aspects need to have a way to become troops easily and they need to be beefed up. In my opinion Eldar are low toughness, low in number but can have decent armour, extremely specialised with exception/addition rules.
So generally im against most aspects becoming cheaper. I perfer smaller squads its what makes them unique.(also i dont have to paint as many)

[samzor]

Of course the other problem is the similarity between Guardians and Dire Avengers.

Even in 2nd ed it was a difficult balance. For a full squad of 7 Dire Avengers (22pts each 15, 154pts in total) you could get 11 shuricat Guardians (14pts each). I loved my DAs but Guardians were a better deal.

Giving DAs longer ranged guns was a good way of giving them an edge but the problem was that it left Guardians neglected. In my view Guardians need to be brought up closer to the current level of DAs and DAs need to have a more flexible battlefield role.

I would like to see DAs become a unit which combines the shooting ability of a Kabalite Warrior (sans heavy/special weapons) with the tarpit abilities of Wyches. I don't think this would be unreasonable for their current cost. If there is going to be a cc element to the squad then it needs to actually be useful rather than the waste of points that it currently is. Up the shimmershield to 4+ inv in combat, give them 2 attacks each (new wargear), maybe even defensive grenades and make them stubborn. They are supposed to be 'immovable in defence' after all.

If DAs can hold up dedicated assault units for a turn or two then that would really give them unique role for a front line Troop not only in the army but in the 40k system as a whole.

I also really like the idea of 'Support Guardians' as a HS choice.

I like what you say here. Also in the bigger picture it would be great to field these without needing a farseer to mind them.

As soon as every eldar unit stops needing fortune or doom then we will see people play with 1 farseer and put in an Avatar/Autarch. Something which makes the game more fun (brings back iconic units). Personally more what I imagine eldar to be like.

[titilititi]

I wish Dark Reapers can switch their launcher by a Shurican, and also that there will be a new aspect warriors assault unit specialized in using witch blades.