Eldar Wishlist.

[Bubble Ghost]

The thing is that t3 assault units tend to need to cross a vast distant in relative safety inorder to have a chance of affecting the battle.

No they don't. The idea that they haven't contributed if they don't eviscerate something is a fallacy - they've "affected the battle" by presenting a threat. There's nothing wrong with that being part of how they work if things are priced correctly for it, and if other rules enable them to do it.

For instance, what if there was some sort of 'inertial dampener' upgrade that allowed units to disembark when moving flat out? And what if the Wave Serpent's energy field extended some sort of protection to the dismbarked unit, if neither moved away? That would better enable them to present a threat in just that way - and in doing so, would become part of a style of play where you had to plan ahead and have units support each other, which we Eldar players always seem to be going on about anyway.

That's just an example off the top of my head to demonstrate that there are other ways of doing it. And anyway, a flat out Wave Serpent is hard to kill, especially if you Fortune it - it's not like an ork trukk coming at you. If it was an assault vehicle as well, you'd be looking at a point and click auto-squash of a unit of your choice - move your tank forward, the enemy rolls some dice, if they get the right result on the dice they're fine and if they don't they're dead. We like to think that Eldar should be a finesse army, but if we're going to truly believe that, we should have the courage of our convictions, not resort to asking for 16-point models in a 100-point tank who can splatter almost anything they feel like with the ease of terminators in a Land Raider. Where's the fun in that, for either player?

And after all that, I have to say that I'm not really convinced that Aspect Warriors and Wave Serpents are cripplingly underpowered as it is. There's not a lot there that can't be fixed with points values - I don't think they're unfit for purpose particularly.

Also suggesting instead of just suggesting we just want to steal a "shiny" ability, why not offer a more interesting improvement.

Because that's not my job, it's GW's. You're not obligated to offer a superior alternative just for the right to criticise something - there would be no consumer advice at all if that were the case. Although I did it anyway earlier in the post.

I think you've misunderstood my reasons for posting all this - you seem to have assumed I'm a marine player trying to jealously guard my special rules. I'm not, I'm an Eldar player who would prefer my army to play in a unique and appropriate way, rather than cave in to 40K's flaws.

[Israfael]

[*]Shining Spears save improved to 2+ (to match Space Marine bikes, and reflect the very heavy cavalry-style armor worn by the current model).

I'm a bit confused. Why are you requesting a terminators save, to be "comparable" to Marine bikes?

[Ravariel]

There are a few things in here that I want to address, because as an Eldar player, and one who has written a fandex of my own, it is a bit close to my heart. Please take this in the completely constructive manner in which it is intended.

Moving around the FoC (if indeed there is still an FoC in 6th, rather than percentages like in 2nd edition and 8th edition Fantasy Battle).

The only move necessary is Warwalkers shifted to Fast Attack. That would correct almost all of the "HS crowding" that people complain about. Changing the FOC by HQ is an idea that has been bandied about a lot by many different armies and every time it seems to be a mistake (I'm looking at you, Grey Knights), so I think it should be avoided. Perhaps having the Phoenix Lords allow you to take one unit of their aspect as a troop, but that's it.

+1WS and +1BS across the board.

No. Yes, we're older and wiser and more highly-trained than marines but we're also physically weaker, and not augmented, so neither in fluff nor in game mechanics would it be a good idea to boost our average WS/BS by 1. Hitting on 2's is a way bigger deal than it might seem at first glance. And if some of the changes in the leaked codex turn out to be true, it could render many Farseer choices moot.

18" range on all Shuriken Catapults.

Maybe. I'm not sure that's good enough for basic guardians. Again, especially considering possible 6th ed changes, I think shifting them back to 24" Rapid fire is the way to go.

Shuriken weapons force a re-roll of successful saving throws (this could get complicated and time consuming against units that already had a re-roll, but could simply add one additional roll per armor save before any other re-roll).

Too clunky. Maybe have them reduce the armor save of the target by 1. Make them AP- but treat 3+ armor as 4+, and so on. I know they've shied away from abilities and guns that alter the opponents rolls (other than re-rolls), but this is a mechanic that could be useful if done sparingly. May need a S reduction depending on impact.

Not quite a codex change, more so something from the supposedly "leaked" ruleset, but the strength value for Assault weapons/Pistols may be used in combat/on the charge. This restores Eldar to the position they held in 2nd edition, which is "between IG and SM" in all aspects of combat, i.e. SM weapon Strength, but IG toughness.

I have been playing with the leaked ruleset since it dropped, and I have to say this is one of the more interesting changes I've seen. I like it a lot, and hope it remains. That said, I hope that units like Avengers get a CCW in their wargear so they can make use of the fact that their weapon is Assault. As it is, they're pretty terrible in the new edition (even more so than the current).

Inclusion of 40k-stamped Codex Eldar units from IA11, e.g. the Wasp, Hornet, Firestorm, and Wraithseer.

Unnecessary, as the stamp already allows their use.

Bonesingers added as a vehicle/MC repair unit/Apothecary-equivalent for Wraithguard, with a similar "unlock" with an Autarch like what Farseers do for Warlock Bodyguards.

I actually did this in my fandex. I had individual warlocks you could buy as upgrades to squads. There were no universal powers, but each one had powers specifically tailored to help whatever squad they were in, and usually allowed them to take one of two different roles (for instance, with my guardian defenders, you could choose to give the squad stealth, stubborn(and can regroup below 50%), or reroll armor in cc... which gives you one to hunker down on an objective with stealth, go grab midfield objectives with stubborn, and soak enemy CC with the final one). Wraithlords could buy bonesingers which could give them back wounds on a 6 (similar to Tech Marine's repair). I think it worked well, although the new edition kinda shelved my playtesting as I've been focused on learning the new rules.

Return of the Saim-Hann special character from 3e that it seems the "Autarch on Jetbike" was meant to represent, unlocking Vyper Squadrons as troops.

Nuadhu Fireheart I think you're talking about? My guess is we'll see him as the Shining Spear Phoenix Lord.

Ranger special character for Alaitoc, granting Pathfinders some kind of special ability.

Pathfinders are ridiculously good already (and even better in the leaked 6th ed rules... seriously... so good). They already get Aspect BS, +2 cover and rend on a 5+... what more could you give them?

18" range for Wraithcannons (closer to the 16" range they offered in 2nd edition).

I would love this, but it borders on making them too good. Seriously, an extra 6" on THAT gun is a major boost. I have played perhaps a dozen games recently with a full 10-man with Spiritseer (embolden) and Farseer (Fortune/Guide), and they have died a grand total of twice. The first took 3 turns of dedicated shooting (3 Soul Grinders, Fateweaver, Flamers) and 2 turns of combat with Scarbrand, the second a boss-as-hell first-turn deepstrike with a big unit of flamers of tzeench... they may not kill their points worth in games, but they score like crazy and are nearly impossible to move. The only Anvil the Eldar have. 18" guns would almost make them a default buy.

Close combat weapon options (e.g. Wraithswords) for Wraithguard.

Sweet Jeebus, yes. In my fandex I had the Wraith Vanguard with Wraithswords and Shimmershields. 5++ in cc, and 2 attacks base made them a mean, tough advance force that could tarpit like crazy and didn't fear hidden fists or poison nearly as much as the normal wraithguard. No guns, though, and slow (5+ warlock max in a serpent) so tough to use, but likened to Assault Termies, very useful.

Allow 5 Wraithguard + Wraithseer + Bonesinger to ride in a Wave Serpent.

Isn't the wraithseer wraithLORD-sized? I don't think you'll ever see one in a Waveserpent. :P

Grenades for Guardians, either for an upcharge or built-in.

Would need to be an upcharge, otherwise their main use as a cheap blob unit would be compromised. I would also add the caveat that Storms could only get assault grenades, and Defenders could only get Defensive (I realize Plasma is supposed to do both, but for balance sake)

Lasblasters for Guardians, matching the Swooping Hawks profile. This allows Guardian Defenders not to have to rush forward to their doom or sit statically as extra wounds for their support platform.

A longer-range weapon swap for them would be nice, if they don't go the 24" rapid fire route for normal 'pults. I can't remember if it was ghost or someone else who said they saw something like that in an early build, but this can be reasonably called fairly likely.

More support platforms per Guardian Defender unit, e.g. 1 for every 3, 5 or 10. This provides a better thematic fit because it keeps Guardians further away from the front line.

Can easily turn into too powerful. I would agree to a platform per 10 dudes. 3 or 5 would be putting way too much firepower in the cheapo troops slot (especially if you include the HWPs in their support platforms... which I did in my 'dex). It treads fairly heavily on IGs shtick, so limiting it a bit I think would be for the best. In my dex, they also counted their platform as twin-linked when they remained stationary, for what it's worth.

Storm Guardians with +1 WS, Guardian Defenders with +1 BS, both as Elites, following the "Black Guardian" bit from 3rd ed's Codex: Eye of Terror. These could be unlocked by selecting Eldrad. This represents hardened Ulthwe Guardians who've spent too much time circling the drain that is the Eye of Terror.

Eeeeeeeeh, I hesitate here. Maaaaaaybe have it be from a warlock power, so you have to spend an extra 40-50 points for it. Moving them into elites just crowds an already crowded area.

Free Shuriken cannon platform, following the scheme from codices like Codex: Space Marines.

Agreed, basic platform should be free.

Special/close combat weapon options for Guardian Jetbikes. Fusion guns would make a huge difference on their ability to target... well, anything.

Eh, shuricannons I think work well enough for them. They could use a points reduction, though. Biker troops are less special than they were when the current 'dex was released, so at 20 points apiece I think they would be fairly costed. That said, if the EV rules are true, with an EV of 4, they would justify their current costs quite well.

Vypers attached to Guardian Jetbike squads as part of their FoC choice, ala Space Marine Attack Bikes.

Would like this very much. Let the Hornet take over the Viper's place in FA... it's better at the job anyway.

Larger unit capacity for Shining Spears (maximum of 11 attacks on the charge being insufficient to kill, well, anything that is decent at close combat).

Very much this. How to make Spears work was one of the hardest things for me to wrap my head around in my dex. Boosting the max squad size to 8 helped a LOT. I also gave them special hit-and-run rules that allowed them to get out of dodge after popping a tank.

Laser Lances improved to AP3. This allows pre-charge shooting to have a decent chance of killing MEQ, plus it is silly that a power weapon has the AP that it currently does.

Agreed.

Shining Spears save improved to 2+ (to match Space Marine bikes, and reflect the very heavy cavalry-style armor worn by the current model).

No, too good. Even at 35 points and 5-man max, if you give them a 2+ you're just asking for a Jetbiked fortuneseer to turn it into the new Paladin squad.

Dark Reapers re-gain Eldar Missile Launchers and the ability to target multiple units, restoring them to parity with other dedicated infantry-carried heavy support (e.g. Long Fangs). This is another "undo" on a 2nd-to-3rd edition nerf.

Pretty much agree here. Make one of the exarch powers allow the exarch to shoot at a different unit than the squad, improve the max squad size to 8, and shave a couple points and you have a pretty good choice even with the HS competition.

The return of some form of the Crystal Targeting Matrix. If WS and BS are not boosted across the board, this could simply be a +1 BS boost for a modest amount of points.

Falcon needs BS4, everything else is gravy. Actually in the leaked rules with the -1 to damage for being a tank, Holofalcons and prisms are even harder to kill. I had Scarbrand and a unit of flesh hounds banging on my Prism's hull for 3 full turns, and they managed to get about 30 shakens (thanks, spirit stones) and one weapon result.

Spirit Stones improved to be equivalent to Power of the Machine Spirit, rather than equivalent to the Grey Knights vehicle ability.

Stones are fine as they are. Cheap, effective. Never leave home without 'em.

Falcons as Dedicated Transports for units of 6 or fewer infantry-sized models, or perhaps just for HQ (Farseer+Warlocks or Autarch).

In my dex, they were treated like Land Raiders, where one Aspect unit of 6 or fewer could get one as a DT. Worked fairly well.
[*]Fire Prisms become a 1-3 Squadron instead of a single unit FoC choice. These are a synergy vehicle, and it is bizarre that one need dedicate multiple heavy support choices if one wishes to have something that can compete with, say, 1 Basilisk/Manticore (which likewise comes in squadrons).[/quote]

I though about this a lot, and I even put it in my 'dex. But after playing more with Prisms, I think they need to be limited by only having one in a slot. They are the most versatile and survivable item in the entire army. And for their points (after stones and holocheese) they are a steal. A limiter like one per FOS is necessary.

Prism Cannon gets the Lance rule.

Sweet jeezus, no. They already get a small blast lascannon, no need to make it that OP.

Starcannons stay expensive but are either improved to Heavy 3 or Strength 7.

S7. So good at that level, without getiing too OP. 3 shots treads on Scatter Laser territory, so better to make it S7 to keep it differentiated.

Brightlances stay very expensive but improve to Strength 9.

Actually just dropping them to 30 points makes them pretty good where they are.

Shuriken cannon range improved to 30". This makes them have a range matching any other heavy weapon on any other army (spare perhaps 'Nids).

I'm down with this.

War Walkers re-gain a 2nd-edition style force field, perhaps conferring a cover save (like the Tau vehicle upgrade) or acting as an all-around Strength "normalizer/ceiling reducer" (similar to the Wave Serpent field).

Walkers already one of the best units in the 'dex... no reason to make them OP. Giving them stealth or something similar would force their points north of what they should be. They are a glass cannon, almost by literal definition. They work great as they are... just shift them to FA and they're golden.

Hawk Lasblasters increased to range 36". This helps their role as a "standoff" unit.

If guardians get lasblasters, maybe as a way to differentiate themselves. Perhaps 30" would be enough.

Dire Avengers

1. Range increased to 24", following a global boost to 18" of other Shuriken catapults, and reflecting their range finder.

I's what I did in my 'dex. Worked well for me.

Warp Spiders[list=14][*]Replace current range with a template, similar to 2nd edition.

You would need to boost their points to a ridiculous level or make them max squad size 5 to balance this. Just look at Flamers of Tzeench as comparison. Spiders have a better save, better combat ability, better mobility, S6, and cost less. You would need to boost them well north of 40 points to justify multiple S6 templates on jump infantry. For Spiders, a points reduction should be enough, and maybe give them rending... maybe.

The new rule set actually hurts spiders pretty bad due to the movement and turn order changes, so there's some work that needs to be done for them, but I'm not sure what that is, yet.

[KingDeath]

30 points for a brightlance? A weapon that is little more than a glorified missile launcher against everything up to AV12 and generaly inferior to lascannons until you shoot AV14? You surely must be kidding. 20 points at most would be more viable.

[Austinitor]

I'm a bit confused. Why are you requesting a terminators save, to be "comparable" to Marine bikes?

Thanks for pointing that out; I just double-checked the rules, and have discovered that a regular opponent of mine (playing all-bike Marines) has been, uh, let's say "confused" about what their save is.

[Austinitor]

30 points for a brightlance? A weapon that is little more than a glorified missile launcher against everything up to AV12 and generaly inferior to lascannons until you shoot AV14? You surely must be kidding. 20 points at most would be more viable.

I have to agree. These are really WAY over costed compared to anything else in any other codex.

[Austinitor]

First off, thanks for your thoughts.

The only move necessary is Warwalkers shifted to Fast Attack. That would correct almost all of the "HS crowding" that people complain about. Changing the FOC by HQ is an idea that has been bandied about a lot by many different armies and every time it seems to be a mistake (I'm looking at you, Grey Knights), so I think it should be avoided. Perhaps having the Phoenix Lords allow you to take one unit of their aspect as a troop, but that's it.

I'd argue that allowing Falcons in some sort of Dedicated Transport role would likewise be an FoC change, as would moving around Support Weapon Batteries.

No. Yes, we're older and wiser and more highly-trained than marines but we're also physically weaker, and not augmented, so neither in fluff nor in game mechanics would it be a good idea to boost our average WS/BS by 1. Hitting on 2's is a way bigger deal than it might seem at first glance. And if some of the changes in the leaked codex turn out to be true, it could render many Farseer choices moot.

I think all of your arguments here only apply to increasing their strength (something no one has proposed). Likewise, I would not worry about rendering Farseers moot; it would be nice to have an HQ that can actually not have to act as an offensive asset rather than just a synergy boost, and I would gladly exchange the Guide/Doom utility for effective offensive psychic powers (because, let's face, the current ones and the lack of firing points on transports makes our current set compare very poorly to, say, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Necrons, etc).
[QUOTE=Ravariel;6134898]Thinking about it, it really is bizarre to have these act as assault weapons/battle rifles when they're given to units we'd almost never want to assault with, anyway. I agree that moving them to Rapid Fire (they've never been Rapid Fire; they actually had a Sustained Fire die under 2nd Edition, along with Storm Bolters, Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters etc; it was pretty uncommon to have more than one shot 'til the Rapid Fire rule was introduced), but returning them to 24" range does make sense. Honestly, I'd be happiest if they were moved to, say, 24" Heavy 3, AP3, with a cost increase (as it gets closest to their 2nd edition functionality and role). Naturally, this would necessitate a change to Shuricannons, as well.

Too clunky. Maybe have them reduce the armor save of the target by 1. Make them AP- but treat 3+ armor as 4+, and so on. I know they've shied away from abilities and guns that alter the opponents rolls (other than re-rolls), but this is a mechanic that could be useful if done sparingly. May need a S reduction depending on impact.

Your counter-proposal is interesting, but it strikes me as unlikely that they'd become a special case to re-introduce armor save throw modifiers. I think another poster, though, had a better suggestion in saying that it would be best to simply ignore the first armor save for re-roll units (Fortune'd, etc), as it more so follows the aim of replacing save mods with AP (reducing dice rolls and speeding game play).

I have been playing with the leaked ruleset since it dropped, and I have to say this is one of the more interesting changes I've seen. I like it a lot, and hope it remains. That said, I hope that units like Avengers get a CCW in their wargear so they can make use of the fact that their weapon is Assault. As it is, they're pretty terrible in the new edition (even more so than the current).

Interesting points, and that certainly does help.

Unnecessary, as the stamp already allows their use.

Unfortunately, certain bizarre purists still insist that anything that isn't blessed with inclusion in something with the title of "codex", requires opponent's special permission (beyond what is customary in arranging a game, e.g. "what army, how many points"). Especially sadly, this seems to include most tournament organizers. I don't think that is a battle that is easily won, but the design studio making an end run around it and doing an IG-style inclusion of the rules in the codex proper would silence those hostile to IA/Forgeworld. If that also means we get plastic models for these, that'd be icing on the cake.

I actually did this in my fandex. I had individual warlocks you could buy as upgrades to squads. There were no universal powers, but each one had powers specifically tailored to help whatever squad they were in, and usually allowed them to take one of two different roles (for instance, with my guardian defenders, you could choose to give the squad stealth, stubborn(and can regroup below 50%), or reroll armor in cc... which gives you one to hunker down on an objective with stealth, go grab midfield objectives with stubborn, and soak enemy CC with the final one). Wraithlords could buy bonesingers which could give them back wounds on a 6 (similar to Tech Marine's repair). I think it worked well, although the new edition kinda shelved my playtesting as I've been focused on learning the new rules.

re: Bonesingers: I don't think it makes a ton of sense for a heavy support choice to have an IC attached to it.

Nuadhu Fireheart I think you're talking about? My guess is we'll see him as the Shining Spear Phoenix Lord.

Indeed; that wouldn't be a bad fit.

Pathfinders are ridiculously good already (and even better in the leaked 6th ed rules... seriously... so good). They already get Aspect BS, +2 cover and rend on a 5+... what more could you give them?

Oh, I don't know... I guess I just wanted to throw Alaitoc a bone, but perhaps they're already well-stocked?

I would love this, but it borders on making them too good. Seriously, an extra 6" on THAT gun is a major boost. I have played perhaps a dozen games recently with a full 10-man with Spiritseer (embolden) and Farseer (Fortune/Guide), and they have died a grand total of twice. The first took 3 turns of dedicated shooting (3 Soul Grinders, Fateweaver, Flamers) and 2 turns of combat with Scarbrand, the second a boss-as-hell first-turn deepstrike with a big unit of flamers of tzeench... they may not kill their points worth in games, but they score like crazy and are nearly impossible to move. The only Anvil the Eldar have. 18" guns would almost make them a default buy.

Hmm... I suppose I see your point in regards to the Troops option, but am not convinced that a smaller, Elites-sized squad is very functional. Perhaps simply giving them Wraithswords and Shimmer Shields would help.

Sweet Jeebus, yes. In my fandex I had the Wraith Vanguard with Wraithswords and Shimmershields. 5++ in cc, and 2 attacks base made them a mean, tough advance force that could tarpit like crazy and didn't fear hidden fists or poison nearly as much as the normal wraithguard. No guns, though, and slow (5+ warlock max in a serpent) so tough to use, but likened to Assault Termies, very useful.

I suspect I "stole" (really, just repeated without appropriation) the idea from your 'dex.

Isn't the wraithseer wraithLORD-sized? I don't think you'll ever see one in a Waveserpent. :P

Typo, there; I mean Spiritseer.

Would need to be an upcharge, otherwise their main use as a cheap blob unit would be compromised. I would also add the caveat that Storms could only get assault grenades, and Defenders could only get Defensive (I realize Plasma is supposed to do both, but for balance sake)

I think that makes sense.

A longer-range weapon swap for them would be nice, if they don't go the 24" rapid fire route for normal 'pults. I can't remember if it was ghost or someone else who said they saw something like that in an early build, but this can be reasonably called fairly likely.

I'm treating all of Ghost21's stuff as totally debunked. I'd love to be shown reasons to find him credible despite his recantation, but have seen no such things.

If indeed all 'cats do go 24", these guys are probably fine with them (they did well for me in 2nd edition, as it was a novelty to have an all-sustained-fire Troop choice, which computes today to something like have a gun that is Rapid Fire or Assault 4).

Can easily turn into too powerful. I would agree to a platform per 10 dudes. 3 or 5 would be putting way too much firepower in the cheapo troops slot (especially if you include the HWPs in their support platforms... which I did in my 'dex). It treads fairly heavily on IGs shtick, so limiting it a bit I think would be for the best. In my dex, they also counted their platform as twin-linked when they remained stationary, for what it's worth.

I really disagree with the "'cause Guard have it, we shouldn't" angle; after all, they stole our fast skimmers. Likewise, I still think having "Guardian Hosts" as a platoon-style unit with heavy weapon batteries attached would work well without being OP.

Eeeeeeeeh, I hesitate here. Maaaaaaybe have it be from a warlock power, so you have to spend an extra 40-50 points for it. Moving them into elites just crowds an already crowded area.

Maybe the solution, instead, is to move one or both assault aspects into Troops?

Agreed, basic platform should be free.

I wonder if doing so would be a sufficient enough cost reduction, assuming that the current 'cannon platform cost was deducted from the cost to upgrade to other platform weapon choices?

Eh, shuricannons I think work well enough for them. They could use a points reduction, though. Biker troops are less special than they were when the current 'dex was released, so at 20 points apiece I think they would be fairly costed. That said, if the EV rules are true, with an EV of 4, they would justify their current costs quite well.

This makes them much more limited than DE or SM bikes, and as a new sprue may be on the way, anyway, who not make more than one special/heavy weapon option? Likewise, we're due for some kind of new plastic weapon sprue.

Would like this very much. Let the Hornet take over the Viper's place in FA... it's better at the job anyway.

This is one of the three most pressing FoC changes, I think, though I'm generally fine with Vyper Squadrons staying FA in the 5e SM model. Naturally, though, Vypers should probably get some sort of free vehicle upgrade (ala the Hornet) to justify the current cost.

Very much this. How to make Spears work was one of the hardest things for me to wrap my head around in my dex. Boosting the max squad size to 8 helped a LOT. I also gave them special hit-and-run rules that allowed them to get out of dodge after popping a tank.

I don't know; I really think that, in addition to boosting the size of the unit to 10 or so, they really need a less limited weapon to justify their cost. They are an extremely difficult unit to use, especially in a climate that likes pre-measuring to cheating.

Agreed.

No, too good. Even at 35 points and 5-man max, if you give them a 2+ you're just asking for a Jetbiked fortuneseer to turn it into the new Paladin squad.

Another poster pointed out that my regular SM opponent had been, uh, playing those wrong, so I'll retract that one. As to allowing Eldar to have something on-par with Paladins, I wouldn't mind seeing the army have some time in the limelight after release. Likewise, I suspect GW may want compelling rules to sell new jetbikes and Shining Spears.

Pretty much agree here. Make one of the exarch powers allow the exarch to shoot at a different unit than the squad, improve the max squad size to 8, and shave a couple points and you have a pretty good choice even with the HS competition.

I'm generally opposed to re-costing, and hesitant about increasing squad size; I'd much rather see power boosted to fit, and see no reason these guys should be inferior to Long Fangs (the most similar competitive unit, spare maybe Lootaz or something).

Falcon needs BS4, everything else is gravy. Actually in the leaked rules with the -1 to damage for being a tank, Holofalcons and prisms are even harder to kill. I had Scarbrand and a unit of flesh hounds banging on my Prism's hull for 3 full turns, and they managed to get about 30 shakens (thanks, spirit stones) and one weapon result.

I think Falcons either need to be put in a battle tank role or in a fighting vehicle role (e.g. the Razorback; sort of an up-armed APC, where as the Rhino fills the "just an APC" role).

Stones are fine as they are. Cheap, effective. Never leave home without 'em.

In my dex, they were treated like Land Raiders, where one Aspect unit of 6 or fewer could get one as a DT. Worked fairly well.

I think this is one of a few valid directions to take them.

I though about this a lot, and I even put it in my 'dex. But after playing more with Prisms, I think they need to be limited by only having one in a slot. They are the most versatile and survivable item in the entire army. And for their points (after stones and holocheese) they are a steal. A limiter like one per FOS is necessary.

I really don't think this compares favorably to how artillery is treated in other armies, especially given the "combined shot" quirk. If "stones and holocheese" make them too good, up-cost "holocheese".

Sweet jeezus, no. They already get a small blast lascannon, no need to make it that OP.

... that scatters. Adding Lance would put these on par with Earthshakers, Manticores, Deathstrikes, etc.

S7. So good at that level, without getting too OP. 3 shots treads on Scatter Laser territory, so better to make it S7 to keep it differentiated.

Generally agreed.

Actually just dropping them to 30 points makes them pretty good where they are.

30 points is still much more expensive than any other comparable weapon at BS4; much worse, still, at our BS3. They either need a power boost (+1AP and +1 Strength) or to be down-costed significantly. I strongly favor the power boost and oppose the cost-shave, because I like the role of Eldar as an elite army (not a horde).

I'm down with this.

Walkers already one of the best units in the 'dex... no reason to make them OP. Giving them stealth or something similar would force their points north of what they should be.

Maybe I'm reaching here and simply want to see something like their former rules; I just think it added more flavor than the "like a Sentinel, but with elves" role they play in the current game.

They are a glass cannon, almost by literal definition. They work great as they are... just shift them to FA and they're golden.

Fair enough.

If guardians get lasblasters, maybe as a way to differentiate themselves. Perhaps 30" would be enough.

24" Rapid Fire shot plus 6" move=your Hawks shot up on any turn after they shoot. I think this needs to be at least 31", really, but 36" is more the "evenly divided by 6" number that GW tends to, these days.

I's what I did in my 'dex. Worked well for me.

Probably one of your ideas, then.

You would need to boost their points to a ridiculous level or make them max squad size 5 to balance this. Just look at Flamers of Tzeench as comparison. Spiders have a better save, better combat ability, better mobility, S6, and cost less. You would need to boost them well north of 40 points to justify multiple S6 templates on jump infantry. For Spiders, a points reduction should be enough, and maybe give them rending... maybe.

The possibility of jump fatalities just isn't factored into their cost. Double-jumping becomes nigh-imperative when their range is reduced to template, thus counter-balancing

The new rule set actually hurts spiders pretty bad due to the movement and turn order changes, so there's some work that needs to be done for them, but I'm not sure what that is, yet.

Again, I think going back to something more like Gav's original is the way to go, and that they changed a lot in 3rd just to have made a change (not for any compelling game reason, but perhaps to move a different model assortment).

[cynic]

I'm going to wait for 6th ed to hit before i start wishlisting

[Fable]

The only move necessary is Warwalkers shifted to Fast Attack. That would correct almost all of the "HS crowding" that people complain about. Changing the FOC by HQ is an idea that has been bandied about a lot by many different armies and every time it seems to be a mistake (I'm looking at you, Grey Knights), so I think it should be avoided. Perhaps having the Phoenix Lords allow you to take one unit of their aspect as a troop, but that's it.

I also think the Support Weapon squads need to be attached to guardian defender squads without taking up a FOC slot. This effectively would make them troops. That would allow the Heavy Support to be Fire Prism (squadrons preferrably), Night Spinner (potentially in squadrons), Dark Reapers, Falcon, Wraithlord and -insert flyer- while Fast Attack would be War Walkers, Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears and -insert other flyer-

That would be 6 options for each and round things out nicely.

Rather than have the clunky phoenix lord with single troop aspect I'd prefer that a Phoneix Lord allow all units of their aspect to count as scoring (or whatever passes for scoring in 6th be it additional points or what have you) as it doesn't create any FOC shenanegains, but isntead can make for some interesting themed builds, also dual PL lists could complement each other nicely. It would be a good way to get up to 12 scoring units (and potentially more if you make the support weapon change) and more realistically compete with modern codexes.

[Bonzai]

I haven't been playing Eldar long, and I play Iyanden, so my perspective is a bit biased from that perspective.

1. Bring back craftworld Rules. I don't want it unlocked by an HQ, but if it must, it must. Just some minor boosts and FOC changes for the preffered units of that craft world.

2. Get a designated transport that is either open topped or an assault vehicle. To balance things out, it won't get all the potential Eldar upgrades that make their vehicles nigh impossible to kill.

3. Add in a Bonesinger as an elite unit that can be split off like sanguinary priests. All wraithbone units within a certain range of the IC get FNP, and poison wounds on a roll of 6 instead of it's normal value.

4. Add in the missing Pheonix Warriors. Us warp spider fans feel left out.

5. Add in nightwings so that they have their "flyers" like the other codexes.

Plus whatever points adjustments and new models are needed.

[Dr.Clock]

I would KILL to have a themed scorpion/spider list with two PLs that make those aspects scoring.

For that matter, it has only just occurred to me how bizarre and silly it is that only DA, guardians and rangers can score... Aspects are supposed to be doing the heavy lifting, no?

As a possible fix for this, we could use Autarchs as a gateway to increased aspect scoring capabilities: let him 'purchase' 1 or 2 other scoring aspects as a testament to his skill in directing them on the field? It's not FOC weirdness, but it could make the list significantly more flexible, especially in smaller games.

Aside from this, I think most of the suggestions here are pretty much on point.

Greatest wish of all though? Exodites... likely never happen, but a man can dream. I'm actually seriously considering a proxy list using 'nids...

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

[Motsognir]

Hith an increas of +1 to the BS the Brightlance is well priced with 30 points if compared to the Darklance (25P). Unlike the DL the BL is assault instead of heavy on the waeponplatform.

One could argue, that the DL is overpriced (looking sadly at 3ed DE Codex)

[TheDoctor]

Hith an increas of +1 to the BS the Brightlance is well priced with 30 points if compared to the Darklance (25P). Unlike the DL the BL is assault instead of heavy on the waeponplatform.

One could argue, that the DL is overpriced (looking sadly at 3ed DE Codex)

And yet Bright Lances are still 30 points on Falcons, War Walkers, and Vypers, so the weapon platform's special ability doesnt mean jack. Oh, and on wraithlords, it's 40 points to get a BS 4 Bright Lance.

And as a comparison, space marine lascannons are 10 points... for something better and more durable than guardians...

Even if we had BS4 brightlances at 30 points, they would still be overcosted.

[Cthell]

Hmmm... IIRC my copy of codex:craftworld eldar, the big feature of Alaitoc Pathfinders (besides being better rangers) was inflicting shenanigans on enemy reserves - either taking hits before the game started or delaying reserves?

Given the existence of both of these mechanics (Coteaz's "I've been expecting you", Master of the fleet etc) I could see this being a good way to differentiate Alaitoc Pathfinders from the stock craftworld versions.

For example - "If at least one unit of Alaitoc Pathfinders is on the board, enemy reserve rolls are at -1; in addition, if an enemy unit enters from reserve within 12"/4D6" of an Alaitoc Pathfinder unit, the Pathfinders may immediately shoot at the arriving unit"

Nuadua Fireheart wasn't a Shining Spear or an Autarch on Jetbike; he actually rode a modified Vyper like a chariot and was treated more like a dreadnaught in combat. He also had to be attached to a guardian jetbike squad - if Vypers do become a unit upgrade (ala attack bikes) I could certainly see him making a reappearance.

[carlisimo]

I would KILL to have a themed scorpion/spider list with two PLs that make those aspects scoring.

For that matter, it has only just occurred to me how bizarre and silly it is that only DA, guardians and rangers can score... Aspects are supposed to be doing the heavy lifting, no?

They’re supposed to do the heavy lifting in terms of killing. They aren’t meant to hold ground, which is what holding objectives is all about. It’s like in modern warfare, where tanks and planes do all the blowing up but only infantry can truly occupy territory.

[Israfael]

Thanks for pointing that out; I just double-checked the rules, and have discovered that a regular opponent of mine (playing all-bike Marines) has been, uh, let's say "confused" about what their save is.

Not a problem. I love inadvertently busting cheaters.

[althathir]

No they don't. The idea that they haven't contributed if they don't eviscerate something is a fallacy - they've "affected the battle" by presenting a threat. There's nothing wrong with that being part of how they work if things are priced correctly for it, and if other rules enable them to do it.

A competent player isn't gonna feel to threatened by banshees on foot, t3 4+ save models are fairly easy to get rid of.

For instance, what if there was some sort of 'inertial dampener' upgrade that allowed units to disembark when moving flat out? And what if the Wave Serpent's energy field extended some sort of protection to the dismbarked unit, if neither moved away? That would better enable them to present a threat in just that way - and in doing so, would become part of a style of play where you had to plan ahead and have units support each other, which we Eldar players always seem to be going on about anyway.

What does that accomplish though? Being able to disembark when you move flat out, unless accompanied by a rule that lets you assault, really just buffs shooting units like dragons. Effectively the assault units are still in the same position they are now, except your disembarking them earlier, which doesn't matter unless they can assault at that point (right now people do the same thing but leave them in the serpent) otherwise the opponent can still maneuver away from them fairly easily, unless they have to hold an objective. Which makes them very situational units which is why in all-comer lists you see tons of dragons.

That's just an example off the top of my head to demonstrate that there are other ways of doing it. And anyway, a flat out Wave Serpent is hard to kill, especially if you Fortune it - it's not like an ork trukk coming at you. If it was an assault vehicle as well, you'd be looking at a point and click auto-squash of a unit of your choice - move your tank forward, the enemy rolls some dice, if they get the right result on the dice they're fine and if they don't they're dead. We like to think that Eldar should be a finesse army, but if we're going to truly believe that, we should have the courage of our convictions, not resort to asking for 16-point models in a 100-point tank who can splatter almost anything they feel like with the ease of terminators in a Land Raider. Where's the fun in that, for either player?

how does banshees, and scorpions getting an ability that lets them treat a vehicle as an assault vehicle equate to that. We're talking about a vehicle with one access point located in the rear, and two units that don't splatter almost everything. Eldar aren't an assault army, having a couple elements that hit reliably doesn't break the game.

And after all that, I have to say that I'm not really convinced that Aspect Warriors and Wave Serpents are cripplingly underpowered as it is. There's not a lot there that can't be fixed with points values - I don't think they're unfit for purpose particularly.

I'm actually pretty happy with serpents, and aspect warriors in general. My main issue with serpents is offensively they bring very little to the table, adding aerial assault fixes that (while bringing them in line with most 5th edition skimmers) It also justifies the higher costs they pay for options like Bright lances. For aspect warriors, I think banshess, scorps, and dire avengers need to buffed and spears and hawks need a price reduction. Giving banshees, and scorps the ability to pay to be able to treat serpents like assault vehicles is enough IMO, dire avengers just need to become more flexible to keep pace with most 5th eiditon troops.

I'm open the ideal of aspect warriors begining buffed in general (the a2 suggestion, but it would need to be accompanied by a price increase for most), but I think your thinking I want a lot more than what I do.

Because that's not my job, it's GW's. You're not obligated to offer a superior alternative just for the right to criticise something - there would be no consumer advice at all if that were the case. Although I did it anyway earlier in the post.

I think you've misunderstood my reasons for posting all this - you seem to have assumed I'm a marine player trying to jealously guard my special rules. I'm not, I'm an Eldar player who would prefer my army to play in a unique and appropriate way, rather than cave in to 40K's flaws.

I'm an eldar player too, and I want my banshees to be a more useful unit, cause right now I use them because I like them, not because their effective.

[Ravariel]

First off, thanks for your thoughts.
I think all of your arguments here only apply to increasing their strength (something no one has proposed). Likewise, I would not worry about rendering Farseers moot; it would be nice to have an HQ that can actually not have to act as an offensive asset rather than just a synergy boost, and I would gladly exchange the Guide/Doom utility for effective offensive psychic powers (because, let's face, the current ones and the lack of firing points on transports makes our current set compare very poorly to, say, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Necrons, etc).

Yes it seems so, but I'm more thinking about the fact that SM augments are more than just strength. They have cybernetic targeters and, still hundreds of years of training. WS5 is not as rough as BS5, due to the competetive nature, but BSS5 Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, Bladestorming Avengers (assuming we fix their weapon) would be devastating, and bring them back to CWE brokenness. The problem here is the fact that on a 10-scale system that uses a 6-scale measure, it is difficult to illustrate small differences in ability.

Your counter-proposal is interesting, but it strikes me as unlikely that they'd become a special case to re-introduce armor save throw modifiers. I think another poster, though, had a better suggestion in saying that it would be best to simply ignore the first armor save for re-roll units (Fortune'd, etc), as it more so follows the aim of replacing save mods with AP (reducing dice rolls and speeding game play).

I agree that it's unlikely to actually happen. Perhaps just boost them to AP4... I dunno. Shuricats are a rough one. Just being assault is no longer a benefit.

re: Bonesingers: I don't think it makes a ton of sense for a heavy support choice to have an IC attached to it.

It is a little odd. Then again I had you able to take 1-3 Lords per HS slot and buy 1 bonesinger per group. You rolled a dice for each wound the squad had lower than it's max, and on a 6 one returned. Also all of my warlocks had 2 wounds, so it was harder to snipe them.

Oh, I don't know... I guess I just wanted to throw Alaitoc a bone, but perhaps they're already well-stocked?

Actually, someone else mentioned their old reserve shenanigans. So perhaps a Cronus/Telion-like SC that gives them back something like being able to defensive fire at their max range, or increase the critical range, or re-roll any hits on the scatter die or something (again, assuming leaked 6th-ed rules here).

Typo, there; I mean Spiritseer.

I figured. Just wanted to make sure... you never know on the internets :P

I really disagree with the "'cause Guard have it, we shouldn't" angle; after all, they stole our fast skimmers. Likewise, I still think having "Guardian Hosts" as a platoon-style unit with heavy weapon batteries attached would work well without being OP.
Maybe the solution, instead, is to move one or both assault aspects into Troops?

Well, just imagine a 20-man 7-point-apiece (what they should be) guardian squad with SIX shuricannons and a conceal/embolden 'lock. That's less than 200 points for 18 S6 shots in the troops slot, which has 14 ablative wounds and is almost impossible to move off of objectives outside of dedicated CC. Now imagine a few more points for scatters or EMLs and it gets to be pretty crazy. At that point why bring rangers or Avengers?

The assault aspects need to stay in Elites... they just need to be more elite. Banshees need Furious Charge as an exarch power, Scorpions need S4 base, and infiltrate/mtc for free. My dex had their exarch powers give them either stealth and veiled 1 if they were in cover, or MTC and scouts.

This makes them much more limited than DE or SM bikes, and as a new sprue may be on the way, anyway, who not make more than one special/heavy weapon option? Likewise, we're due for some kind of new plastic weapon sprue.

True. They already get extra movement (likely extra EV if that stays for 6th), but perhaps they need some way to deal with stronger targets. I dunno.

I don't know; I really think that, in addition to boosting the size of the unit to 10 or so, they really need a less limited weapon to justify their cost. They are an extremely difficult unit to use, especially in a climate that likes pre-measuring to cheating.

I would love them 10-strong units, but I wonder if that won't be too powerful. AP3 on their lances would be great, as would pistols to give them an extra attack (or who knows, maybe the bike-mounted catapult will count for the extra attack in 6th) but I think they should also get Skilled rider and mtc for free. Have the exarch still be able to give Hit and Run, and maybe something else... cover save if moving cruising speed? I dunno... they're hard to gauge.

I really don't think this compares favorably to how artillery is treated in other armies, especially given the "combined shot" quirk. If "stones and holocheese" make them too good, up-cost "holocheese".

I would expect to see that happen in the new dex anyway. With 6th, if the tank -1 remains, I would expect Holofields to change or be upped to 40-50 points. It'll still be worth it, mind.

... that scatters. Adding Lance would put these on par with Earthshakers, Manticores, Deathstrikes, etc.

In the leaked rules, they only scatter if they miss their to-hit roll, and then only 2" against most things they'll shoot with that gun. Also, can you imagine if you could squadron them, then have a S7, lance, Large Blast hitting on 2's re-rolled, all on a platform that takes 36 penetrating hits to kill (and then you still have to kill the other two to get any KP if they can squadron)? Granted, any move away from parking lots is a good one, and that is a very expensive unit, but I wonder if that's too good.

30 points is still much more expensive than any other comparable weapon at BS4; much worse, still, at our BS3. They either need a power boost (+1AP and +1 Strength) or to be down-costed significantly. I strongly favor the power boost and oppose the cost-shave, because I like the role of Eldar as an elite army (not a horde).

After thinking a bit more, I am tending to agree with the S9. It differentiated from the EML more, and gives us a more organic HW growth. Brightlances should be our big-mama ace in the hole. I still think 30 points for a S9 lance shot isn't too bad, but maybe 25 is enough... I just wonder if that's too power-creepy and then we'll be seeing 15-point lascannons in dev squads in the next marine dex.

The possibility of jump fatalities just isn't factored into their cost. Double-jumping becomes nigh-imperative when their range is reduced to template, thus counter-balancing

Maybe. They're another one that's hard to gauge. They need help (and new sculpts!), but I dunno what to do with them. One of my original ideas was to bulk them up to 2 wounds, put them on termie bases, gave them back the templates and upped their cost considerably... it still didn't work. As it was I dropped them to 20 points, gave them an extra attack, and gave them a DoA exarch power that let them run 2d6" after deepstriking so they could deepstrike safely but still get their buts in cover, and gave the deathspinner rending. I dunno if it was enough, but I wonder if the template would be too much. Maybe not... hard to say. Irisado has warned against it before, and he's usually pretty on top of things.

[carlisimo]

C'mon, guys. Threads that become line-by-line exchanges are difficult (and tedious) to read. Post your wishlists and let others do the same.

[Cthell]

Okay, in the spirit of the thread, my ideal wishlist for the next Eldar Codex. I won't go into points balancing, just offer my opinions on what needs improving/bringing into line with the more modern codices.

• Farseers to regain their position as "greatest psykers in the 41st millenium" - if the GK example of "mastery levels" is the shape of things to come, a farseer should be mastery level 2 basic, upgradable to 3 (or maybe even 4) with spirit stones. No need to change the support powers - they are already very good - the offensive powers are also nice, but perhaps some new powers focussed on disruption of the enemy; e.g. making an enemy unit -1 BS, something along those lines.
  
• Autarchs to regain their position as "masters of strategy" - replace the now-useless strategy rating (4) with something like the GK Grand Master's "Grand Strategy". Possibly also gain the ability to pass/fail Ld tests at will (confered to unit joined; representing knowing when to hold and when to retreat). Also some form of off-board fire support like GK orbital strike relays or master of ordinance (although not just a generic "blast template of death", something more esoteric and "Eldar-y").
  
• Avatar to gain Eternal warrior (being the only demon in the game without this rule is embarassing) and maybe either 2+ save or fleet - something to stop it being so fragile.
  
• Phoenix lords for Warp Spiders and Shining Spears
  
• Shuriken Catapults to go up to Assault 3 and Cannons to Heavy 6 - ranges to stay the same. Fluff-wise, they're meant to be notable for 2 features - very high rate of fire (higher than "normal" projectile weapons like bolters) and short effective range. Also, it should be noted that the DE splinter cannon (which is meant to use a similar firing mechanism) is Heavy 6
  
• Scatter Lasers to gain pinning - if Shuriken Cannon go up to heavy 6, the only distinguishing feature of the SL are longer range and worse AP; giving them more shots just invites codex creep, giving rending would turn them into super-assault cannons. It's possible that the strength could be bumped to 7, but that might be overpowered.
  
• Deathspinners and Shadow-weavers to gain rending - pretty self explanatory
  
• Chainsabres to be S4 - making them a usable choice.
  
• Close-combat option for Wraithguard - This is a combination of being a useful option, and the "rule of cool"
  
• A good second weapon option for Fire Dragon Exarchs - the heavy flamer is basically useless; not sure what could replace it - perhaps some sort of multi-shot, lower strength meltaweapon for heavy infantry hunting?
  
• Defensive grenades for Guardian Defender squads, Offensive grenades for Guardian Storm squads - either as standard or an upgrade.
  
• Second special weapon option for guardian jetbikes - some sort of haywire weapon, or pinning blast template?
  
• Weapon platform in Guardian squads to be optional - gives the option of fleeting a 20 strong squad and blasting at point blank, or camping an objective and sniping with the platform.
  
• Hawks to gain the ability to move 6" in the assault phase if not assaulting - reflects their mobility and harassing tactics, whilst not steping on the toes of the Warp Spiders
  
• Firestorm with a hydra-style "ignore cover saves of fast moving stuff" rule or some other anti-flyer bonus.
  
• Wraithlords to have the option of 2 of the same weapon without them being twin linked.
  
• D-Cannons and Wraithcannon to get the IA11 anti-armour profile.
  
• The return of Crystal targeting matrices - either "as-was" or a +1 BS bonus.
  
• Spirit Stones to be improved - like 3rd Ed codex/living metal rule.
  
• Fighter and Ground Attack aircraft
  
• Vehicles to regain the mobile firepower lost with the switch from 4th to 5th ed

In general, I'm pretty happy with the way units work - the codex just suffers from being costed for a significantly different rules system.

As for models

• Plastic Wraithguard.
  
• New Jetbikes.
  
• New Warp Spider and Swooping Hawk sculpts (big hand syndrome is getting embarassing).
  
• New Warlock sculpts.

Just my opinions, naturally