Craftworlds may have several aspects with multiple aspect shrines, or be missing some aspects entirely. So the main thing would be having it made of exarches but the composition shouldn't be to important, honestly its not an option that screams competitive, so it should have a good amount of freedom.Originally Posted by dæl
Last edited by althathir; 02-05-2012 at 22:03. Reason: spelling
Bingo. In the case of Ulthwe, they don't have a lot of Aspects to start with, forcing them to rely on Guardians more, so I can see a Seer Council being their retinue type, instead of the Court of the Young King.
Thus you'd have to make concessions to make it possible. Exarchs could be 0-5 and Warlocks could be 0-5, much like what is in the Necron book with their court that consists of Crypteks and Lords.
"From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.
Waaagh! Gutzag - my first 40K Plog
They would still be exarchs IMO, Ulthwe has less aspects because more eldar there are on the path of seer, but its always the exarchs that bring the eldar to chosen to be the Yound King to the avatar (after all they're the priests of Khaine). I'm pretty sure its been implied that the young king is an exarch though I can't remember where I read it. So I don't see the need to add warlocks there.
edit: It would be cool if they were composed from the different types of aspects warriors you took.
well yes i think they were pretty good when they came out, another problem that makes them poor choice now his because the abundance of Meq´s, when fighting against guard, orks, tyranids and Tau they can still be a good choice.I just feel they never played like the harassing supporting unit that they (im my opinion) should be. it was good when they made the 36" grenade drop run in 2nd. they should make that rule again for Hawks and perhaps give some kind of harassing rule to the grenade strikes, like forcing pinning test with a Ld penalty and/or any enemy unit that gets models in the grenade blast radius counts as under the effect of plasma grenades if assaulted by any Eldar unit in the following assault phase, that would make hawks a good support and harass jump infantry unit.
Last edited by Solonor; 02-05-2012 at 23:20.
There are no perfect people in this world, just perfect intentions...
I'm slightly worried that we're going to get screwed by the inevitable transport rebalance when 6th ed is released. We are still paying 4th ed prices for our transports. Imperial transports have been dropped in price to the point of almost being a free upgrade. I can quite easily see GW carrying out this system rebalance and, when it comes round to our codex, getting caught up in the rebalancing zeal and forgetting that our Transports are balanced for a previous edition.
You are dead right that Wave Serpents are poor transports for assault units. The poorly located access point doesn't help. The Swordwind fluff depicts Aspect dropping out of Transports directly into combat with the enemy. For what we pay, I think it is entirely reasonable that we should expect a Transport which offers decent assautl capabilities.
WDL record with my Swooping Hawk themed Eldar list:-
W: 2,836
D: 2 (I felt sorry for my opponents and started firing at my own units)
L: 1 (I played against myself using my undefeated footslogging Fire Warrior list and lost)
I love hawks, but honestly the harassing role is something I've never understood, I mean right now I think they're are capable of that, hell they're great at that, now being a legitimate threat.... that they fall short of.
I'd much rather see them either become...
1) Cheaper and troops so they can score and their jack of all trades nature becomes a benefit in which case they're fine as harassers because their movement is the threat.
2) Or see them become more of a anti-vehicle unit which if the hull point rumours are true all they'd really need is a point reduction. Plus imo they'd be a pretty cool anti-flier option so its what i'm hoping for. It would also make the fast attack aspects have clearer roles spears MCs/well armoured Elites, Spiders infantry, and hawks Vehicles.
I don't see most transports being rebalanced that much. Honestly it would be hard to nerf them and not other vehicles and with fliers being the main push (seemingly) I don't see transports becoming worthless. The way I look at imperial transports is their force multiplier for imperial armies and a sales multiplier for GW I expect more for things like firing points to get nerfed, and for infantry to have some more options.
That said if our fire power goes back up to levels it was at in 4th we wouldn't have to rely on their durability as much and really that amount of fire power would be fairly reasonable now. If sixth has a lot of changes I could see aerial assault being added via faq, and if not were probably looking at a codex fairly soon (I expect 3 in 2013 judging from fantasy).
edit: That said with how old are dex is the begining of 6th could be frustrating though if we got a flier in a splash release it could a long ways towards helping us.
Last edited by althathir; 03-05-2012 at 01:39.
The Court of the Young King would work in a similar way to the Court of the Archon that DE have. For every Avatar (there can be only one in an army) you can have a court consisting of a mix of Exarchs. It should be a flexible arrangement where you don't need to have every Aspect represented since not all Craftworlds have all of the Aspects. And if you have an Exarch in the court there does not need to be a matching Aspect squad elsewhere in the army. I believe there is an Apocalypse formation for this, but it consists of all of the Pheonix Lords (of which there are none for the Shining Spears or Warp Spiders, but there is now one for Shadow Spectres) and an Avatar...
IMO, the Fleet rule for 6th needs to be improved. The current rule for it is a nerf compared to previous editions especially where assault units needed the extra movement to get closer to the enemy (such as Hormagaunt hordes who have no transport options). Now that everyone can make a run move, Fleet needs something extra to make it advtangeous to such units again. Either it needs to go back to how it was and the run move is eliminated, or perhaps make it so that it always lets you move in the assault phase, even if that move does not get you into close combat (like with Jetbikes/Jetpacks). This should include always being able to assault after disembarking from a transport or after Deep Striking. This would take care of several problems while still allowing non-fleet units to do the same from open topped vehicles or assault ramps...
Banshee Masks should simply grant Furious Charge AND count as assault grenades so that even if they assault into cover, they still go in order where their on the charge Initiative of 6 (7 for the Exarch) would beat nearly everything they would have a chance of hurting. Striking Scorpions would not need Fleet as standard in my opininon, but there could be an Exarch power to allow this and make one of the current powers (probably Shadowstrike) standard for the squad instead. Their fluff and current rules tend to be more about ambush assault rather than the fast forward rush of Banshees. Infiltrating or Outflanking is a better suit for Scorpions so the use of transports for them doesn't need to be encouraged...
Falcons should become dedicated transport options in the same way Land Raiders are. That is, some Elite and HQ units can take them as dedicated transports, but other units can only take a Wave Serpent. They should still be available as a Heavy Support option however. In regards to fields for vehicles, both energy fields and holo fields should be available as upgrades for tanks, Vypers and Warwalkers. Wave Serpents could keey the energy field as standard, but having it as an option for Falcons could be more useful than a holo field in some situations such as for assault/Dragon rushing where the transport capacity of a Wave Serpent is wasted on small units like these...
Everyone Dies. It's the final and only lasting Justice. There's no greater good than Justice; It is said correctly that law exists not for the Just but for the unjust, I bow to no one and I give service only for cause...
That was actually my point. From what I've read and understood about Ulthwe, the only aspects they have is Dark Reapers and Banshees, so they wouldn't be able to make a full court anyways. Yet they can still make Avatars. So I'm thinking the Seer Councils take over for that ritual.
"From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.
Waaagh! Gutzag - my first 40K Plog
I think with banshees, rerolls can also work great - maybe a reroll on misses a la the Hatred rule in fantasy. Changing enemy toughness is an iffy rule, I didn't like it with GK rad grenades to begin with (though that might be because it broke the unwritten "don't change the base toughness for ID purposes" rule).
As for Falcons as dedicated transports, eh, I'm not that sold on it. It would essentially be a scoring gunboat, like now, only easier to spam. Nice (or annoying, depending on your viewpoint), but hardly necessary. I'd much rather see an assault transport - ideally one that can house an entire aspect squad - improved vypers and shuriken catapults, better hawks, spears and reapers, and so on.
BTW, what would people think if the brightlance (and the darklance) become AP 1 instead of just receiving a point drop? Right now it's mostly an inferior lascannon (worse against anything but AV 14), and a bonus to vehicle damage rolls would imo tie with the eldar focus on efficiency and high technology. It IS the race's premier anti-armor weapon, after all.
I don't think I have come across anything that states that. Ulthwe has relatively few aspect shrines, but the key word here is relative. They are still one of the major craftworlds, and chances are they will have quite a few shrines regardless. They definitely have dire avengers, since it is mentioned that they are the most common aspect (and iirc it was mentioned somewhere they are present on every craftworld, large or small) and tend to be featured in near every craftworld action.
Whether the seers are in charge of the awakening I am not sure, but it is quite likely. Remember the Eye of Terror lists? Ulthwe there could field an Avatar with a warlock retinue - the Spear of Khaine.
Last edited by Shamana; 03-05-2012 at 08:03.
rerolls could work, i also would like to see banshee masks reducing the enemy stats in the first round, halving perhaps ememies ws and init. and perhaps changing war shout to reduce the strength of the enemy models by 1. reducing thougness would be a little bit unfluffy, the masks shouts affects the foes nervous system, paralyssing them to some degree, making them slower, awkward and powerless.
I disagree If Falcons went to dedicated transports they would free a HV support slot, and you could choose to go with a small strike unit in a gunboat, or a full unit in a proper transport. besides one can already do a scoring gunboat with serpents if you put 5 min dire avengers in them
i couldnt agree more, for me it would be a perfect solution, although i would still take 5 points from its cost.
There are no perfect people in this world, just perfect intentions...
Why Don't Wave Serpents have a similar Assault ramp rule to that of the Land Raider? that way they don't suffer the downside of being open topped and as many units in them are great at assaulting (they should all have fleet) then that's the way forward.
As for Banshees changing enemy tougness that would be great! Lowering marines tougness by 1 would make it so easier to sweep them down!
All vehicles need bs4 including warwalkers and vypers. An assault ramp like rule or upgrade is needed for Serpents and Falcons. An upgrade that would allow to shoot all secondary weapons as if they were defensive would return their firepower to their former glory.
Banshees need something that boosts them on the charge but not afterwards. They are shock troops not intended for prolonged battle.
Scorpions need a way to get close to the enemy without a transport. More attacks and a powerfist of str8 would be nice.
Wraithguard need more range FNP rule and some serious close combat options. (Make a new plastic model ASAP)
Wraithlord needs to be able to pick same weapon twice. Be able to mount a single D cannon.
Warp Spiders need a PL a template weapon and maybe some short of ability that allows them to phase out so they can avoid damage. (Make a new plastic model ASAP)
Make a Solitare model that would be available only when you a have a harlies unit with a troupe master.
Make Farseers real psychers (level 2), 3 with stones and give them some new powers that aren't a joke, like storm. Make warlocks able to amplify certain powers of the seer when they are in the same squad, for example the more warlocks you have the stronger the storm the seer casts is.
Fireprisms must be able to create a squadron.
Reapers unit size increased to 8 and are able to fire different ammo types (a second type of STR6, AP5 would be nice when firing at vehicles). Gain relentless USR.
All shuriken weaponry has its range increased.
That from the top of my head. I think we should revisit this thread when 6 edition rules come out so we can be more accurate on our wishes
Our weapons cut through them, like a blade through air.
re. Hawks: sadly, you can't really "harass" in 40K. The only way units can affect each other is by inflicting casualties, which do nothing except reduce the attacking power of the target unit. There's no distraction or suppression, there's as good as no morale - just casualties. The tactics in 40K are almost entirely about allocation of firepower, which means a unit can only "harass" by threatening to inflict sufficient casualties of its own that the other player diverts firepower to deal with it. All that means that in 40K, a unit is only any good if: it is capable of effectively killing something; can hold objectives; or is so good at not dying as to present an actual physical obstruction. Merely being able to contest an objective isn't enough, because you might as well take something that presents a threat as well while it's doing that.
And the problem Swooping Hawks have is the same as the problem with Eldar in general, i.e. that 40K is a really, really bad wargame and what they ought to be good at is not actually represented in the rules at all. To make them viable they'll have to tick one of those boxes, there's no way around that. And the first one, giving them something they can kill, is the only one that really makes sense (I bet there's going to be some "aspect becomes scoring if you take the matching Phoenix Lord" nonsense, but I hate that, and it's a cop-out anyway - if a unit needs a particular special character in order to be viable, it isn't)
Here's some fun ideas, none of which I endorse for real so picking holes in them individually is a bit pointless, but just exploring the concept:
- Give them AP3 lasblasters and Preferred Enemy: Jump Infantry.
- I don't like the idea of bombing runs, you'd have to give them absolutely ludicrous movement for it to be worthwhile and that breaks a precedent for other flying units (havng said that, GW absolutely love their callbacks to to the mid-90s right now, so I wouldn't be surprised if something like this does turn up). Personally I'd be more tempted to make their grenade pack a short-ranged shooting weapon with a variety of profiles which one model in the unit is allowed to fire instead of his lasblaster, to represent the grenades dropped by the whole unit before they landed - perhaps with a blast, or Assault (number of models in unit), and ignoring cover. That'd make it so they had to get close, making powerful units dangerous targets, but make them more efficient at one of their current theoretical uses, polishing off stragglers
- Furious Charge would make intuitive sense and be more likely to bump them up to the level of "hmmmm, maybe I'd better deal with these guys" - suddenly people would be less confident of what might happen if they charged, because they'd be more likely to survive into the next turn and thus pin down the target unit. So they'd be fulflling the nearest 40K has to a "harassing" role. The problem with that I guess is that it's a 'sacrificial' sort of role that really doesn't sit with Eldar
What you're saying there does make a lot of sense, but it overlooks that 40K is not a modern wargame, and even if it was, the Eldar are not a modern military. They aren't human, and they have totally different requirements and objectives than a contemporary armed force. "Defending a hill" is exactly the kind of thing Eldar avoid, both because they lack the numbers for battles of attrition, and because they never need to hold ground anyway - they have uniformly flight-capable transport, and they have absolutely no interest in the infrastructure of the alien worlds they're fighting on. They destroy stuff and move on. In terms of the level of believabilty 40K works on - a level where running up and smashing things with swords is a sensible way to wage war, and where fighting in a way that would be impossible for humans is what makes aliens alien - shuriken catapults make complete sense for Eldar.
Yes, you have to abstractly "hold objectives" to play the game, but I don't want the quirky requirements of gameplay to start dictating background, which was my whole point. I don't want Guardians to be pointy-eared Imperial Guardsmen.
Last edited by Bubble Ghost; 03-05-2012 at 17:13.
Idiots... nothing can live forever.
I rather hope they ditch the Jetbike Seer Councils as I've never been a fan of the concept. It seems like a hybrid of Ulthwe/Saim Hann unit types that doesn't really fit either craftworld properly - the main reason they are one of only 2 units I don't have for the army.
I also hope Shining Spears get a boost or at least a points drop plus better models so I can finally have a reason to get some.
The army hasn't had many new units added to it for a long time (Nightspinner aside) so I'm curious as to what more they could add. Certainly Bonesingers and Solitaires would be a good start.
Warning: comments expressed above may not mesh with your world view. Try not to let this upset you.
@ Bubble Ghost
"harassment" rules can be implemented and used sucessfully in 40K, night spinners grav tanks work that way, but what you say his also true, if i have unit A that is good at kiling and unit B that doesnt have really much punch but has an fancy rule that delays the enemy, i could have one unit A to kill some enemies while Unit B tries to delay them, but i will probably choose two Units A to kill twice the enemies, so that should reflect itself in the point costs of the abilities.
I like the idea of hawks causing disruption in enemy units and veichles, i think that should translate in a rule that makes them capable of disable enemy units eficiency and making them more vulnerable to other eldar units, and that would contribute to the eldar synergy style of warfare.
There are no perfect people in this world, just perfect intentions...
I highly disagree. Normal Lascannons glance Av14 on 5's and Pen on 6's. The Bright Lance and Dark Lance glance vehicles on 4's and pen on 5's, due to reducing the armor to 12 instead of 14. How is that worse? I think the Lance rule makes them better against high AV, not worse.
Bonesingers I can get behind, but Solitaires are a big fat NO. I remember when they existed before, and I do not want to see that OP crap again. There's a reason why they don't exist anymore.
Last edited by AlphariusOmegon20; 03-05-2012 at 15:08.
"From the fires of betrayal, Unto the blood of revenge, We bring the word of Lorgar, The Bearer of the Word, The favored son of Chaos; All praise be given unto him, For those that would not heed, We offer praise to those that do, That they might turn their gaze our way, And gift us with the boon of pain, To turn the galaxy red with blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods." - Excerpt of the 341st book of the Epistles of Lorgar.
Waaagh! Gutzag - my first 40K Plog
nobdy said that they were worse against AV 14, in fact its quite the opposite they are worse against all AV values except 14, besides that they are costly and only have two reliable weapon platforms (wraithlords and wave serpents). im not counting the lesser range because Eldar units are usually faster.
There are no perfect people in this world, just perfect intentions...
Yeah, that's the problem - if you want that kind of effect you have to come up with some arbitrary special rule that exists completely outside of the normal game. Too much of that is confusing, contradictory and annoying, and special rule bloat is by all accounts one of the things people dislike about 40K generally. It would work if there was some core rule they could make use of naturally, say something about proximity or position of enemy units - Ld or cover save penalty if you have a nearby enemy unit in your line of retreat, that sort of thing, that Skyleap would make them useful for exploiting - but as it is, I think you have to do what you're going to do with them using killing power and nothing else, because that's the currency the game is designed around.
Then again, maybe 6th ed will have something more like that - the leaky-fakey-leaky rules had a system where broken units were just plain destroyed by nearby enemies. Swooping Hawks with Skyleap would be useful for exploiting that, whereas currently the enemy unit would continue fleeing but almost as an afterthought blow the Swooping Hawks to bits on the way...
Last edited by Bubble Ghost; 03-05-2012 at 15:56.
Idiots... nothing can live forever.
I'd also point out that they are an Assault weapon, and can be fired on the move by Guardian units, which is really nice.
@Bubble Ghost
I would give the Swooping Hawk Exarch access to the Web of Skulls weapon again. It was a pretty good weapon in 2nd Ed. and it could be given stats/abilities that would make the unit better at threatening more targets.
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