Is GW hinting at a new Primarch with the Blood Ravens?

[shadowhawk2008]

Plus the Silver Skulls CLAIM Guilliman as their Primarch :-)

[randian]

There are quite a few Chapters who don't know who their Primarch was.

Why don't they ask the AdMech? Geneseed tithes and genetic testing for purity that they do would seem to make identification easy and definitive.

We know that the AdMech has stores of Traitor geneseed. If the Blood Ravens are a Thousand Sons successor, their geneseed won't match that of any loyal first founding chapter. The obvious conclusion is that they're from Traitor stock. A test to confirm would be easy.

[Lothlanathorian]

Just because they were founded doesn't mean that they know who they were founded from. There was one whole official founding in the fluff where they don't have a clue who's geneseed was used for any of the Chapters and, sometimes, the AdMech like to mix geneseed together and make a new Chapter just to see what might happen. I wish I could remember exactly where I read these two things, though.

[Lord Damocles]

If the Blood Ravens are a Thousand Sons successor, their geneseed won't match that of any loyal first founding chapter. The obvious conclusion is that they're from Traitor stock. A test to confirm would be easy.

What would the Blood Ravens' Chapter Master do then though?* That's gonna be some press release, and it's not going to be easy to put a positive spin on it.

Perhaps they don't want to know/want others to know.



*Well, Angelos being Angelos, he'd probably yell, and hit something with a hammer...

[The Red Pilgrim]

Perhaps they don't want to know/want other's to know.

That seems to be the case now. In the games, when they discover a hint at who their Primarch might be, they destroy the information. I can't imagine they would do this unless their Primarch was a traitor.

[Twisted Ferret]

I don't, and neither does Kenzaburo.

I don't either. I would prefer it being a mystery to everyone, in fact - even the Emperor; makes it much more... well... mysterious. With all the difficulties finding the other Primarchs, it really lets the imagination run wild: what could possibly have taken these Primarchs out of the ken of immortal man? What would they have been like? Who can say...

[The Red Pilgrim]

I don't either. I would prefer it being a mystery to everyone, in fact - even the Emperor; makes it much more... well... mysterious. With all the difficulties finding the other Primarchs, it really lets the imagination run wild: what could possibly have taken these Primarchs out of the ken of immortal man? What would they have been like? Who can say...

You're aware that all of the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor, and took control of their Legions at the beginning of the Crusade though, right?

[Twisted Ferret]

You're aware that all of the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor, and took control of their Legions at the beginning of the Crusade though, right?

I don't think it's ever stated he was reunited with the Primarchs of the II and XI legions; they were created, and either something went wrong, or they were scattered with the rest of the Primarchs and simply never found. I think the only reference they get in the HH series is that bit showing the creation of all the Primarchs - they're certainly never spoken of by any of the other Primarchs or legions.

[Lord Damocles]

'Twenty Space Marine Legions took part in the Great Crusade. These twenty are known as the First Founding because they were the first Space Marines to be created. Each Legion was led by its own Primarch, the god-like being whose genetic structure formed the basis for the Legion’s gene-seed.'
Codex: Ultramarines, pg.7 (my empasis)

[The Red Pilgrim]

I don't think it's ever stated he was reunited with the Primarchs of the II and XI legions; they were created, and either something went wrong, or they were scattered with the rest of the Primarchs and simply never found. I think the only reference they get in the HH series is that bit showing the creation of all the Primarchs - they're certainly never spoken of by any of the other Primarchs or legions.

Not true. They're referred to by Magnus, Lorgar and Russ at various times during the Heresy novels. Not in any detail, no; but their fate seems to be known by both the Emperor and the remaining Primarchs. It's even implied that Russ had a hand in the censure of at least one of the Legions.

Then there's the mention in C:SM - which Lord Damocles has quoted.

[Kenzaburo]

there's even more - in the dark king/lightning tower audio dramas there's the part where dorn wanders through the palace on terra and arrives in a hall with the statues of the primarchs' statues. and the 2 missing ones are either covered or had been removed, i don't remember. malcador enters and he mentions dorn's lost brothers in passing and that something happened that cannot be spoken of again.

so, the missing primarchs have in a way featured in the HH series. now i keep my fingers crossed it stays in that realm of vagueness. seriously, guys, whatever we could get as a story about them will lead to disappointment for some/a lot. it's like the lost (tv show)finale - it was anticipated for so long, so many theories out there, that the actual end could only turn out to be disappointing for some. some mysteries are better left unsolved, even though it contradicts human nature.

[Chem-Dog]

Why don't they ask the AdMech? Geneseed tithes and genetic testing for purity that they do would seem to make identification easy and definitive.

It's not quite as black and white, the Blood Ravens' inception was something that took place somewhere round Late M36/Early M37.
If one were to assume they were indeed a fragment of the Thousand Sons they would have had to either laid low 5-6 thousand years or have gone under a number of alternate identities since the Heresy.
Then you have the simple fact that, over that period of time you can "acquire" an amount of Astartes geneseed by simply involving yourself in a conflicts where other Astartes are also at war, the occasional missing or vaporised body will happen, and presto a fresh non flagged set of geneseed to send to the Mechanicus for inspection.

You don't even need any of the modern lot to have Magnus' Geneseed at all, if he were the Primarch of the beginnings of the Chapter there's nothing to say the philosophies and "spiritual" fatherhood don't still continue even if they've long since switched over to another donor primogenitor.

You're aware that all of the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor, and took control of their Legions at the beginning of the Crusade though, right?

Not strictly true, the two missing legions were already "missing" by the time the Emperor met up with Corax, so they weren't all there at the start.

Not true. They're referred to by Magnus, Lorgar and Russ at various times during the Heresy novels. Not in any detail, no; but their fate seems to be known by both the Emperor and the remaining Primarchs. It's even implied that Russ had a hand in the censure of at least one of the Legions.

It's explicitly stated that all the surviving Primarchs are aware of the occurrences that led to the legions and their Primarchs being "lost" and have sworn not to speak of the matter again, one even chides another for even contemplating breaking that oath.


So, in short, no I don't think the Blood Ravens are of the missing Legions, the argument for them being Thousand Sons in disguise isn't entirely disproved but I believe that it's been pooh-poohed by at least one of the writers.

[The Red Pilgrim]

there's even more - in the dark king/lightning tower audio dramas there's the part where dorn wanders through the palace on terra and arrives in a hall with the statues of the primarchs' statues. and the 2 missing ones are either covered or had been removed, i don't remember. malcador enters and he mentions dorn's lost brothers in passing and that something happened that cannot be spoken of again.

Good catch. Ya know, I always thought it strange that the MIA Primarchs have their likenesses missing; while the traitors have only been covered up with tarps, as if their rebellion is only temporary.

[Lupe]

There are many hints in the HH novels that the missing primarchs existed in the setting but something either went wrong with the legion, or the primarchs were lost in the warp. etc. etc.

Russ himself mentions them, and as he is considered the Emperor's "Executioner" it's possible he was called upon to do the deed.

[/speculation]

I'd also mention a further speculation, and a theory I personally subscribe to
The missing legions (and, by default the missing primarchs as well) are removed from all records since there is no longer any surviving element of them left - be it successor chapter, legion remnants or individual Astartes scattered throughout the Imperium. By contrast, the nine traitor legions are still present since they retain some degree of fighting strength (be it greater or lesser). As soon as another traitor legion would be confirmed as annihilated, its records would also be wiped. Until then, it would be counterproductive to remove the records of an active threat to the Imperium.

[biggreengribbly]

Then you have the simple fact that, over that period of time you can "acquire" an amount of Astartes geneseed by simply involving yourself in a conflicts where other Astartes are also at war, the occasional missing or vaporised body will happen, and presto a fresh non flagged set of geneseed to send to the Mechanicus for inspection.

Which strikes me as entirely in character considering many of the gear items in DoWII

Blood Ravens? Bloody Magpies more like!

[Lothlanathorian]

I'd also mention a further speculation, and a theory I personally subscribe to
The missing legions (and, by default the missing primarchs as well) are removed from all records since there is no longer any surviving element of them left - be it successor chapter, legion remnants or individual Astartes scattered throughout the Imperium. By contrast, the nine traitor legions are still present since they retain some degree of fighting strength (be it greater or lesser). As soon as another traitor legion would be confirmed as annihilated, its records would also be wiped. Until then, it would be counterproductive to remove the records of an active threat to the Imperium.

That's essentially the same theory I found myself coming up with and sticking to when I got into 40K at the tail end of 2nd Edition. Whatever tragedy took place, there is nothing left of them so they have been removed from the records. Once the traitors would be annihilated, they, too, would be stricken. Although, if this isn't done with rebelling Chapters, it would poke some holes in the theory possibly. Also, iirc, the Big E is the one who deleted their records and, with him not exactly actively calling the shots, perhaps no one has thought to delete the records of any of the others?

[randian]

Good catch. Ya know, I always thought it strange that the MIA Primarchs have their likenesses missing; while the traitors have only been covered up with tarps, as if their rebellion is only temporary.

I've wondered what happened to that part of the Imperial Palace. Was it destroyed, make difficult to access by rubble, or just made off limits as the Emperor's personal chambers no doubt are. Has anybody seen in in 10,000 years? What wonders lie fallow in the Emperor's chambers?

[Harwammer]

Two ideas:

1) Could the hinted connections between Blood Ravens and Thousand Suns in fact be false/circumstantial evidence planted as part of a Tzeentchian plot to take control of a 'new' loyalist force?

Okay, that was a bit of an internet cliche, but it was a serious suggestion. Here's a less serious cliche based suggestion:

2) The Blood Ravens discovered their Primarch was not in fact Grandpapa Smurf. In their eternal shame they covered this up as at this moment the chapter realised they could never be Ultramarines?

[MyNameDidntFit]

Although, if this isn't done with rebelling Chapters, it would poke some holes in the theory possibly. Also, iirc, the Big E is the one who deleted their records and, with him not exactly actively calling the shots, perhaps no one has thought to delete the records of any of the others?

I believe, in Counter's Soul Drinkers novels he details the eradication of a lot of evidence of their existence. Though the reasoning behind this is that they apparently rebelled 'of their own free will' and such a thing could never be allowed to reach the waiting ears of the Imperium at large...

Still, interesting to consider.

[Idaan]

That's essentially the same theory I found myself coming up with and sticking to when I got into 40K at the tail end of 2nd Edition. Whatever tragedy took place, there is nothing left of them so they have been removed from the records. Once the traitors would be annihilated, they, too, would be stricken. Although, if this isn't done with rebelling Chapters, it would poke some holes in the theory possibly. Also, iirc, the Big E is the one who deleted their records and, with him not exactly actively calling the shots, perhaps no one has thought to delete the records of any of the others?

Well, the totalitarian state that is the modern Imperium needs to create a public enemy for the populace to oppose. It needs Chaos Traitors to exist, even if they don't. Compare and contrast to Emmanuel Goldstein in 1984, hunts for counter-revolutionaries in USSR long after all opposition was destroyed, and WMDs in Iraq.
On the other hand, keeping II and XI in public consciousness didn't benefit the Great Crusade-era Imperium, because its basic ideology of Mankind's manifest destiny already had good opponents in all kinds of Xenos. What's more, the existence of Traitor Marines might lessen the trust citizens had in Imperial Marines - if others betrayed, how could they trust those who appeared loyal. In fact, the knowledge that Marines don't always do what's in Imperium's best interest might have made it harder for Horus to garner Imperial Army and civilian support.