VC Blood Knights are terrible.........

[vardek_4]

(Nurgle for example would allow them to hit the Blood Knights on a 3+)

The -1 to WS only applies when the enemy attacks you. So they'd still hit on 4+ at each other.

You could get a unit of 8 with full command and a 4+ ward vs shooting for not a whole lot more than a unit of 5 Blood Knights with the Flag of Blood Keep.

8*40+50(FC)+ 40(banner of 5++ against shooting) + 20 (MoT to make it 4++) = 430
5*50+35(FC)+ 75(flag) = 360

You could even add another BK for a total of 6, their 4++ is against RANGED attacks, not only shooting (i.e. anything not done in base contact), plus all the other advantages said before, and you still have 20 points to spend in other things.

[Sexiest_hero]

In 7th you could have a vampire with blood-drinker, that made them boss. Now the are still good. They just need flank attacks with and hard to damage Anvil unit to hold the front. If only VC had some kinda Giant Ghoul unit or easy access to Ethereal units.......

[Frankly]

Generally you are piling more points on top of the already pricey knights just to make them work ....

Wait, whats the difference between enhancing a chaos knight unit with a hitty character opposed to a B.knight units with a hitty character. Have you seen what a lord in a units of 6 B.Knights can do?

... and are those necromancers on steeds supposed to be in the Bloodknght unit? Or wandering around by themselves in order to keep up? You might put them in dog units I suppose but they can be picked out, either way you are looking at free points for your opponant really...just saying......

You could also run them in a unit of black knights until you had board control.

Picked out by what? Why wouldn't you be running a crap load of wolves(or even 36pt fell bat units)for support hunting, deployment drops and redirectors, its the type of list that you'd run for a Blood knight list, one that has elements to help control the board.

Like I said , generally you're talking a babysitting vampire , who gets one chance at raising a single knight (under debate) if your opponant lets you cast the spell and thats pretty much balanced by the fact that they get to use thier own power dice to converseley remove models from the unit.

And again I'm saying thats a narrow minded way of looking at all the support options open to you to creat and stronger list.

Lets say you are supporting with Necros, your going to support with more than one, your going to but casting vigor/danse/IoN, your magic phase is going to be more than a single spell.

And they're frenzied, and unstable.

lets forget frenzied being a drama-fest these days ... its not, your going to be unlucky to lose out to frenzy or unstable for that matter. When are blood knights not going to do enough wounds to lose combat, especially if you've got a hitty character in the mix or supporting magic.

Hmmm...generally they were seen chasing dogs birds and harpies into the nearest available forest...

Yeah .... I call internetz B.S. on that one. Against a reasonable player with half a brain who was running Blood knights primary denial and secondary hammer, then his list just wasn't going to let this happen.

I'm not theoryhammering btw. ...

Today I played with:

12 x 5 wolves

2 x 40 zombies

hex wraith unit

2 black knight units

1 blood knight unit

hitty lord

2 wight kings

60 wolves were overkill in utility, but I'm testing a few things out. Even so its a bit of a nightmare for the opponent to assist in combat when their movment phase to swamped with redirectors.

I got in a dozen games at the 2400pts mark, plus a few games in with a mounted M.Necro + necros which I reckoned was a bit stronger.

[Frankly]

It's a bit more than that - there's 10 points between them and Chaos Knights have the same WS as Blood Knights, and the same Initiative, and with the extra points you can buy Frenzy for them giving them the same number of attacks (and have points to spare), except Chaos Knights have better Ld so frenzy isn't a bad for them. They can also get a frenzy banner which frees up the mark slot for them (Nurgle for example would allow them to hit the Blood Knights on a 3+). They both cause Fear. Chaos Knights can reroll failed panic tests so whilst they're not completely immune to it like Blood Knights, they're pretty resistant. True, they can't be brought back from the dead, but they can be buffed with Warshrine potentially giving them such horrendous things as T5, 4 attacks each, a 4+ ward, or a 0+ armour save, and they're cheaper anyway so you can get more of them - even with upgrades. You could get a unit of 8 with full command and a 4+ ward vs shooting for not a whole lot more than a unit of 5 Blood Knights with the Flag of Blood Keep.
Blood Knights have S7 on the charge whereas Chaos are S5 all the time, making BKs much better at monster-hunting, but in any other role I think Chaos Knights may edge out a win.

Nice break down, I agree.

[Sexiest_hero]

you can't have a 0+ save anymore

[Kayosiv]

The Warshrine's rules specifically say you can unless an FAQ says otherwise.

[warplock]

Yeah, Warriors can get a 0+ save through the war shrine, annoyingly.

[Sexiest_hero]

That's just silly! Lucky for me i've only seen the Ward combo.

[Maoriboy007]

We seem to have strayed away from the original point which was:
A: Bloodknights were overrated in 7th edition, and while better in this edition , probably receiving more hype than is deserved. I am not agreeing with the original post (tongue in cheek or not) that they are terrible troops by any means, but they have plenty of considerable drawbacks that are alway overlooked
B: Over/Underestimation of the effect of Invocation, with it being , first , a spell in the first place. Spells are part of that magic phase , invocations effets are no more or less valid than say , a magic missile used to reduce the number of Bloodknights in the first place. Also with short range and Bloodknights being a fast (ie long range) unit, the Invocations applications are limited on such a unit.
Invocation is a good spell, but too often units are talked up way too much because of it.

Wait, whats the difference between enhancing a chaos knight unit with a hitty character opposed to a B.knight units with a hitty character..

Apart from the cost? You are also advocating necromancers following the unit around, plus a unit for them to hide in that you woun't want in combat if you can help it, and having them follow the Bloodknights abandons any infantry to thier own devices. That kind of investment starts to blur the lines about Deathstar and points innefficiently.

Have you seen what a lord in a units of 6 Blood Knights can do?. .

The problem is he kind of does the same thing in any unit you put him in. You could just as well get a Black knight unit for him thats pretty comperable and twice as big. Bloodknights are indeed very good after all, but are they worth the cost? Only just IMO. Cavalry is very depowered in this edition, unstable cavalry even more so. Bloodknights are a decent hammer, and they can fill that role well enough but also an expensive glass one in many ways.

You could also run them in a unit of black knights until you had board control..

For me its a points thing, generally after core the Bloodknights and those characters supporting them, you are squeezing out your points. Those black knight don't want to see combat so you are limiting the legitimate threats you can use to gain board control.

Picked out by what? Why wouldn't you be running a crap load of wolves(or even 36pt fell bat units)for support hunting, deployment drops and redirectors, its the type of list that you'd run for a Blood knight list, one that has elements to help control the board...

Mounted necromancers can be picked out of any non cavalry unit (ie Wolves) by template attacks. So there are several spells and Warmachine you will have to watch out for. As much as redirecting Wolf units are actually really good in this new edition, small units aren't a threat either and a good opponant can ignore them and let them get in your own way. After all its in your best interest to be encouraging melee combats (apart from performing the actual charges in many cases, strange but true) when playing VC.

And again I'm saying thats a narrow minded way of looking at all the support options open to you to creat and stronger list....

No I'm saying for invocation being used on Bloodknights be be any sort of factor, you really have to commit Characters and thier positions to a unit generally charging ahead of the main force (Dire wolf based lists excluded). You are automatically limiting your focus around that single unit in that case. Its not so much the spell, but the commitment you are putting into the unit, any unit starts to become good. Hell Lore of BEasts repeatedly spammed on Empire Spearmen starts to look scary after a while.

Lets say you are supporting with Necros, your going to support with more than one, your going to but casting vigor/danse/IoN, your magic phase is going to be more than a single spell.....

Again, they are going to have to be fairly close to the target, generally leaving infantry out of the list, which will give you problems with steadfast blocks. Also it starts to put necormancers close to enemy lines when they are following the mad bloodthirsty knights into the fray.

lets forget frenzied being a drama-fest these days .

My references to frenzy being a major problem generally refered to 7th, altough with thier (WTF) low Ld they need babysitting by a Lord or at the least a BSB, so not really independant operaters even without Invocation being a factor.

its not, your going to be unlucky to lose out to frenzy or unstable for that matter..

Why not? they are legitimate drawbacks that are still very relevant in this edition, unstable even more so.

When are blood knights not going to do enough wounds to lose combat, especially if you've got a hitty character in the mix or supporting magic...

How about if your opponants got a hitty character in the mix or supporting magic?
Or if the Knights get charged (heaven forbid your opponant is going to try that one)
or any prolonged combat with a steadfast unit or they encounter another elite unit? Or when supporting another undead unit that loses combat, even a bad combat round (it happens more often than you think). Bloodknights dont break run and hopefully rally, they don't even get to take a break test, they die. At 50 odd points a pop that really hurts.

Yeah .... I call internetz B.S. on that one. Against a reasonable player with half a brain who was running Blood knights primary denial and secondary hammer, then his list just wasn't going to let this happen....

Waht? and was your opponants list just sitting back letting your master plan work? Distracting bloodknights with chaff was very valid in 7th, it came down to whether or not you opponant expoloited your weakness to his advantage or how well you prevented him from doing so. The fact was it was a weakness you as the VC player had to overcome while your opponant merely has to exploit it.

I'm not theoryhammering btw. ....

Well thats an 8th edition list so the arguments of 7th Ed bloodknights aren't invalidated. Bloodknights are being babysat by a lord and thats your single short range casting of Invocation there as you don't have the extra two necromancers to back him up. So yeah, I don't have a problem with the list. Its not particularly invalidating my points , but I don't knock it (although your opponant might roll his eyes watching you checkerboard wolves for the majority of the game) its a mobile army focused around your knights. It doesn't prove that invocation is particularly powerful, you'll get one shot at it per turn. Without knowing the exact size and function of your black knights the Bloodknights are still the only legitimate threat, and steadfast blocks could be a problem. Not my particular style of play but an ok list.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Blood Knights seem sub-par to me, but not impossible to use. The restriction on raising Vampiric units is what really hurt them, I feel. Certainly they have a role as a flanker, perhaps with a relatively cheap vampire in there to try and raise them back. I think you need to invest some serious points into them to make them worthwhile, which of course has the vicious-circle effect of making them extremely valuable to kill. However, a sizable unit is a major threat to just about anything and with the ability to march outside of the general's Ld bubble, really helps with the problem VC armies seem to have of needing to bunch everything up in a relatively small area on the board.

The temptation with them is to make a deathstar with multiple vampires, but really, if you're going down that route, it seems far more worthwhile to do it with black knights, which are just as tough, but much and vastly easier to raise back and just about as good giving support attacks from the second rank. That does necessitate remaining within the general's bubble of course.

I can imagine a fairly heavy investment of points into a unit of 7 or 8 with a level 1 combat vampire in the unit and the 4++ banner could do the job of a heavy force well outside the general's bubble as a hammer to use against the anvil of the main VC battleline. I think they were overcosted though and I'm not sure this role will redeem them enough to see common play.

[Frankly]

We seem to have strayed away from the original point which was:... .

Fare enough. You brought up some good points.

[Wesser]

I've had considerable success with them.

Just last week against a Skaven army a unit 7 waltzed through a unit of 10 Rat Ogres like they werent there and the Kastellan killed the Skaven warlord in a challenge...

The thing to remember about Blood Knights is:

1. Enemy elites are the bane of Vampire counts. Grave Guards, Black Knights and Crypt Horrors can if well supported by Invocations go toe-to-toe against Chaos warriors, Phoenix Guards and the like, but if the winds of magic is not with you then youll struggle against such enemies. Blood Knights is the only unit that can hold its own unaided... though they rly likes Vanhels...

2. Unlike alll other cavalry (even brets) Blood Knights need not be a subtle weapon. Their str of 5 means that the lance is often mere gravy and with their high ws and multiple attacks you dont rly need support from other units. Just pick the enemy's best unit and charge as fast as possible.

3. They'll rarely get shot. Crossbows and handguns are going out of use due tothe increased charge ranges and warmachines often have more tempting targets like Mortis Engines or Terrorgheists. Your opponent will know of the Flag of Blood keep, the option of which by itself will dissuage shooting against the unit.

Any elven army with their strong magic, high LD and WS as well rerolls to hit in most cases, are bad news to VC. Blood Knights are bad news for elves. Grave Guards and and Crypt Horrors will find themselve sin trouble against the cheaper spearmen. Blood Knight are the only unit reliably able to crush elves bar the use of characters

[hazmiter]

Not my area of expertise, as I have horrid luck w heavy cav, but wouldn't 4 bllod knights w a hero lv vampire, and 2 packs of 10 dire wolves do ok???? Especially of said vampire could buff the wolves over the starting size, and regen lost knights?????

[Maoriboy007]

Not my area of expertise, as I have horrid luck w heavy cav, but wouldn't 4 bllod knights w a hero lv vampire, and 2 packs of 10 dire wolves do ok???? Especially of said vampire could buff the wolves over the starting size, and regen lost knights?????

Its a matter of economics, such units tend to too much investment to get thier full value or less points to make them a hit or miss disposable unit (albeit still a pricey one). You are focusing considerable hitting power is a small zone, but also investing a considerable amount of points in a small unit which is a lot easier to remove from the table if your opponant puts some effort into it. The high value of such a unit makes it a very profitable target for them to do so. And regardless od its hitting power, generally steadfast will bog the unit down to possibly get ground down.
Its also very easy to both underesimate and overestimate the ability to raise Bloodknights. In most gaming circles you can only raise a single knight from any one casting of Invocation, and even then generally only if your opponant allows it or you have managed to keep several casters within 6" of a very mobile cavalry unit, but using magic dice to bring back a model is really just an inverse equation of your opponant using his magic dice to remove one in the first place anyway.
One of the big comlpaints about 7th was how a single unit of bloodknights would wreck units, but generally such a unit was costing upwards of 500-1000 points, depending on its character investment, I would be suprised if such a unit couldn't smite a unit half its cost.