ETC Comp Draft#2

[tmarichards]

Right, the second draft is up here: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewto...p?f=18&t=99850

Again, in the interests of clarity, this is not a thread to debate the merits/lack thereof of comp as an entity, but to instead discuss this second edition of the comp.

[Duke Ramulots]

Did you mean to put "may only use 2 PD/DD per turn"? That's crazy.

[tmarichards]

My thoughts so far:

It's bad. But, I'll go into more depth below. I'm also a bit annoyed to not see any sort of reasoning behind it once again- why, for example, does this second draft shaft Wood Elves even harder? Is 90 Glade Guard really that broken? Are they deliberately hurting the weaker armies to encourage people to only take the power books to exaggerate the competitive nature of the event? Or, do they think that so few people want to use them that it's not worth actually thinking about how the comp affects them? Whichever it is, or even none of the above, these are the sorts of things I would love to see addressed by the AR committe.

I won't go over all the comp or even all the changes, just the bits that I think are good/bad and why.

General restrictions:

Not sure I like specifically Death spells going to 4 dice max per spell (Purple Sun really keeps Ogres in check), but I love Shadow going down even if it does shaft some of the combat armies . Personally, I would've preferred to see the overall casting limit go down to 4 dice as a blanket- I think it encourages good play by forcing you to prioritise which spells you go for instead of throwing a fistful of dice at the 6th spell. The way the shooting cap is worded still annoys me, I think a shot cap is by far the better way to go about it. The war machines cap coming down to 4 I really like, mainly because I'm coming around to cannons being one of the worst things to happen to Warhammer.

Chaos Dwarfs:

I like that Chaos Dwarfs are in, but for me, all their comp is irrelevant because it doesn't allow the Destroyer to always bewounded. Now, whether Chaos Dwarfs are such a strong army that every team will take them is of course an issue, and you can of course still "deal" with a Destroyer. However, I still maintain that the current ruling of it not being able to be wounded on a 6 is simply retarded. There is also the issue of ETC comp being used in singles events- it's all very well to take the view that if teams are that worried about a Destroyer then they can take lists geared towards it, but you don't have this luxury in a singles event. I fully accept that the comp is designed for a team event so this isn't one of their main concerns, but it's still a valid point that needs to be considered, as very few TOs that take the comp will edit it for their own events.

Dark Elves:

I suspect the out and out combat army is gone, except for maybe a cavalry bus of doom (and even then, I think Asger ruined that for everyone after last year...). The war machine cap doesn't do enough to make the dragon viable IMO, and the Shadow restriction (which I incidentally think is superb) really hurts combat lists.

Daemons:

Master of Sorcery is back in...hmmmm... personally I loved it being taken out, it's absurdly cost-efficient so it always had to be changed or at least limited to how it is now However, for it's current incarnation, I think it's still a little bit too good, but I can see the case for it to be back in even if I don't personally agree with it.

Dwarfs:

I like that the combat Dwarf army (Rangers, Miners, Anvil and so on) is now more viable.

Lizards:

... it was a graveyard smash? Certainly possible now I guess, not sure it'll be optimal though.

Ogres:

YES! Double Ironblaster is one of the worst things to happen to Warhammer in a long time, I'm very glad it'd gone. I'd like to also see max 6 Mournfangs per army, but that's only because I have an utter hatred of those things. 1 Ironblaster and 2x4 kitties isn't too OP I guess.

Warriors:

The Knight bus takes a hit, which is good. It's horrible.

[tmarichards]

Did you mean to put "may only use 2 PD/DD per turn"? That's crazy.

It's almost certainly meant to read "generate" instead of "use", especially given the context of the sentence.

[Duke Ramulots]

It's almost certainly meant to read "generate" instead of "use", especially given the context of the sentence.

I was a bit rash in posting, I understood it means generate. I was just thinking that rule right there eliminated the use of goblin shamans and was a bit put off.

As for your econd post: Yes it apears as if they want to reward taking the power armies.

[Snake1311]

My thoughts so far:

It's bad. But, I'll go into more depth below. I'm also a bit annoyed to not see any sort of reasoning behind it once again- why, for example, does this second draft shaft Wood Elves even harder? Is 90 Glade Guard really that broken? Are they deliberately hurting the weaker armies to encourage people to only take the power books to exaggerate the competitive nature of the event? Or, do they think that so few people want to use them that it's not worth actually thinking about how the comp affects them? Whichever it is, or even none of the above, these are the sorts of things I would love to see addressed by the AR committe.

Its weird, you say its bad, but then in your details you have half bad points and half good points

I'll address some of your bad points, since I believe I can see the reasoning behind it:

-WE. 90 Glade Guard is actually very, very strong in the context of the power armies taking various nerfs. There is no delibarate nerfing, they are just keeping them in check.
-Death magic. In a metagame where herohammer is making a strong return due to crown of command, death magic is a very very strong lore. Add on top of that purple sun, which wipes warmachines - since now empire/dawi have 1 less WM, there is no need for a hardcounter to be that easy to execute.

I think the draft is an improvement over the 1st one, but there is definitely room for Draft #3

[The bearded one]

Lizards:

... it was a graveyard smash? Certainly possible now I guess, not sure it'll be optimal though.

Whatya mean with that?

[tmarichards]

The Monster Mash

[quietus1986]

Looks great I think Beter than the first draft. I think it can still use some tweeks. I do really like the max 2 cannons for the empire.
But then they should make every cannon max 2. The Vampire counts looks oke. Would love to see zombie's go to a max of 60 model cap.
But looks way beter than the first one ( lot of the restrictions are gone)

[Morkash]

Can't put my finger on it yet, but something about these new draft rules is fishy. I'll post if my head gets clearer, but I liked the first draft better. Detailed feedback will follow.

[ihavetoomuchminis]

Wich game are these rules for? Not warhammer, that's for sure

[TsukeFox]

Are 2 doom wheels really that hard core that they must be restricted?

Woot chaos dwarfs are in-!
But they really should have just outlawed the Destroyer-it would have forced the CD players to be more creative in there list instead of going for the easy out with the super monster ( better than all greater daemons for cheap .)

Suppose everyone will have a mounted hero with a dragonhelm as a must.
Except for dwarfs-let us just hope the armor/ward saves hold out against the thunderstomps.

[Bloody Nunchucks]

honestly, these rules take the game of warhammer fantasy and turn it into something else, maybe..... idontwanttohurtyouhammer.


limiting death and shadow to 4 dice is plain stupid. (its to much of a limitation on certain armies that need them, plus, other lores are just as good (life))

the penalties on empire are to harsh.

the shooting rules pretty much nerf TK and WE completely, and to a lesser extent DE and some brett builds

some of the stupid annoying overpowered combos are still there, you just made some of their counters illegal.

you might want to rephrase some of the magic working, i too thought for a second that you were suggesting only 2 pp per phase



im sure that i am not alone in thinking that you are trying to change the game to much. this is warhammer, killing stuff what the game is all about, trying to limit that to much and turn the game into like a weird 7th ed army list setting is just to much imo. i understand what your trying to do (make the game fair for all armies) but you dont need to do so much. just a few things here and there.

[vcassano]

Who's "you"?

Also, saying that things are stupid and harsh aren't really productive. You should explain why.

I haven't really sunk my teeth into this properly, so I shall reserve comment for now. However I do not like it simply on the basis of it being horribly inelegant and cumbersome, though there are other reasons though.

[tmarichards]

Probably worth pointing out that these aren't "my" restrictions, I just copy and pasted them from a different site so that a wider audience (ie: people who don't use TWF) could see them.

I also disagree about Empire being very weak- the cannon cap hurts them a bit, but it's not the end of the world, and with the magic restrictions and Empire's ability to take multiple options that automatically stop spells or add more dispel dice, and the Steam Tank is now perhaps the most powerful individual model in the game (although admittedly, it will likely be completely different under the next Empire book).

[TsukeFox]

What else can be done about 6 dice mind razor wind game? Now with 4 dice the chances of winning off a single spell are greatly reduced.

[IcedCrow]

These threads never cease to amuse me. The OP will say "please don't turn this into a raging frothing ballistic argument about why comp is bad" and then it will be followed up by a series of people who feel that they have to post, often times in over the top rude tones, about how comp is stupid and this is not warhammer.

lol

Make your own tournaments and do what you want.

[Satan]

These threads never cease to amuse me. The OP will say "please don't turn this into a raging frothing ballistic argument about why comp is bad" and then it will be followed up by a series of people who feel that they have to post, often times in over the top rude tones, about how comp is stupid and this is not warhammer.

lol

Make your own tournaments and do what you want.

Good summary. +1. Because people always feel the need to derail them I've virtually stopped reading them.

[decker_cky]

I'm wondering if there's data showing that Shadow and Death are worse than Life. At a glance, I consider those three lores to be roughly equal in power level, so not restricting life to 4 dice feels odd.

[Sexiest_hero]

To each his own. I do feel they should Avoid blanket ruling so much. My ungor horde army is ruined, No Herdstone,miasma lvl1s no 90 ungor in a horde. My TK got dinged hard also. the could have just banned Mindrazor, dwellers, and PP. M units can't go toe to toe with other with equal numbers Unless I have the magic boost of herdstone spam to lower stats, that I lost also. Bah