pre heresy equipment

[AndrewGPaul]

As to the OP's question, in addition to what others have said, Razorbacks were also post-Heresy and Vindicators came about during the Heresy, so a Great Crusade era army would lack those as well. Multi-meltas were also a either post-Heresy weapon or a rare pre-Heresy one (much like Marine portable plasma weaponry), but autocannons were a Marine portable weapon as well as a vehicle mount. The Predator Destructor was the common version then as well (I'm not sure on this, but I thought somewhere I read the Annihilator was a post Heresy variant). During the Heresy, Marines also had access to jetbikes, but lacked widespread use of jump packs and Terminator armor. The storm bolter was not yet present and the pre-Heresy Terminators made use of twin-linked and combi-bolters. The Thunder Hawk at the end of the Great Crusade was a new stop gap measure (it was in one of the 1K Sons/Space Wolf ones I think) to replace the larger Stormbird, but the replacement never came compliments of Horus' tantrum that daddy wasn't paying enough attention to him. It is also worth noting that only the Emperor's Children before the Heresy could have the Aquila on personal armor, although vehicles were fair game for all. Those older veterans who had fought with the Emperor on Terra also could have the Emperor's fist and thunderbolt on their armor, which might be a neat addition to one of your venerable Dreadnoughts. Also the Chaplain Edict and Council of Nikaea would be worth noting as having occurred after the missing Legions had been erased and their Primarch's statues in the Imperial Palace removed from their plinths.

Going by the 2nd edition Codex: Chaos, multi-meltas weren't available and heavy plasma guns were only used on vehicles. Mind you, the 2nd edition Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Ultramarines and Codex: Angels of Death listed autocannon in the available heavy weapons for Marines; another bit of info from previous editions that's been retconned as "Heresy-era".

Not sure where the lack of jump packs comes from - I suspect a retcon in the 2nd edition Codex: Chaos to explain the lack of Chaos Marine miniatures with them, because 1st edition Epic and the army lists in Realms of Chaos had plenty of them.

[trigger]

Bar the landraider variants nothing is really new, why chaos don't have certain things is because of how difficult it is to maintain.
Another reason is function example.
Assault cannons were designed originally for ship to ship boarding actions and were frowned upon by the original 18 for use in open warfare , preferring the reaper because of it's longer range and better punch, in later years the reaper was just phased out for the assault cannon.

With whirlwinds the guidance system is meant to be super awesome (like so good Ward couldn't even make it sound over the top) and very difficult to fix with out the right gizmos and jiba jabas ect (chaos tend to have more dofas and whatya mecalls it's)

[Chrisb3]

No one likes my unknown primarch (hinted to be Fulgrim) Pretty Marines idea then? Basically it really sounds like you want a pure version of the Relictors, gathering shiny pre heresy armour rather than daemonswords

[Cthell]

Assault cannons were designed originally for ship to ship boarding actions and were frowned upon by the original 18 for use in open warfare , preferring the reaper because of it's longer range and better punch, in later years the reaper was just phased out for the assault cannon.

That and the fact that the reaper could be relied upon not to jam right when you really needed it.

Does the fluff about the barrels essentially being a disposable one-battle component still hold true, or did they retcon it out?

[Dreadlordpaul]

No one likes my unknown primarch (hinted to be Fulgrim) Pretty Marines idea then? Basically it really sounds like you want a pure version of the Relictors, gathering shiny pre heresy armour rather than daemonswords

I really dont like the relictors at all they seem like wannabe grey knights. I think my marines are going to be descended from the emporers children that stayed loyal but they became obsessed with heresy era stuff and dragons. they chose to not heavily use transports as they would rather use their finesse and precise aerial strikes to destroy their enemies

[Chrisb3]

I rekon you should pick up all the fancy models like blood angles death company / sangine guard and grey knights. Mix them all up and file off the chapter specific stuff. Maybe grab some forgeworld old mark armour too.

[Dreadlordpaul]

I rekon you should pick up all the fancy models like blood angles death company / sangine guard and grey knights. Mix them all up and file off the chapter specific stuff. Maybe grab some forgeworld old mark armour too.

thats what i was thinking of for my vanguard

[lovelessmerc]

Ok, just read any of the horus heresy books.... Conversion beamers, auto cannons, plasma canons, land raiders, power weapons, combi-bolters, early marks of stormbolter, thunder hammers, and the list goes on and on.... 40K has so many weapons, its awesome. Some legions could field armies of terminators while others could field flocks of jump packed infintry. So any kinda of pre-heresy cache or heresy cache of spacemarine armor or materials could be anything.

[Dreadlordpaul]

i read flight of the eisenstine 3 years ago looks like i may need to re read it

[aim]

Here's a tip to avoid a lot of grief: Don't.

This attitude bugs the living bejezus out of me.

The missing legions were origionally put in for 2 reasons, an homage, and to give people the chance to have their own 1st founding army. Yet people absolutely pounce on anyone for suggesting using them. I don't think I've ever seen a homebrew chapter/legion that is actually meant to be one of the missing ones, yet people seem to claim that there are 48 new missing legion chapters created every day.

Now, had this person come on and said;

"My chapter will be one of the missing legions, they all wear terminator armour, equipped with railguns, are women and are all made from the same tech as primarchs.... oh and they are immortal.... oh, and they are magic."

Then I could understand the attitude, but he's not even listed any fluff he has in mind at this point past "They will use heresy era equipment". For all anyone knows he could have had the most genius, intelligent and well thought out fluff that makes perfect sense and is a pleasure to read. Granted, its not that likely, but still, theres no need for the instant knee-jerk response of "No, go away".

(PS. Sorry to pick on your post Engel, you aren't the only one, but you were the first in this thread and it was a nice short neat post to quote).

[Stonerhino]

There is a K.I.S.S. element to designing a diy chapter. The more complex you make it the more you move into the "My chapter will be one of the missing legions, they all wear terminator armour, equipped with railguns, are women and are all made from the same tech as primarchs.... oh and they are immortal.... oh, and they are magic" area. The best you can really do and have a "Missing Legion" chapter is "They don't know what Legion they desend from". And leave it at that.

[aim]

There is a K.I.S.S. element to designing a diy chapter. The more complex you make it the more you move into the "My chapter will be one of the missing legions, they all wear terminator armour, equipped with railguns, are women and are all made from the same tech as primarchs.... oh and they are immortal.... oh, and they are magic" area. The best you can really do and have a "Missing Legion" chapter is "They don't know what Legion they desend from". And leave it at that.

Or so you assume. For all anyone knows this guy could have had an absolutely brilliant bit of fluff explaining why they were expunged, why they were still about, didn't break existing fluff, was entertaining and charachterful, without being silly OP. But everyone just assumes its going to be some ten year old wanting to make the 'bestestest hard army ever'. Thats what bugs me. At least give people a chance to present their fluff Ideas before shooting them down out of hand.

Personally I'd never do a missing legion army. In fact my own marine chapter is incredibly mundane with nothing at all special about them, except that they are mine. But if someone else wants to do a missing legion army, hell, I say give them a chance to fail before declaring it a failure.

[totgeboren]

This attitude bugs the living bejezus out of me.

The missing legions were origionally put in for 2 reasons, an homage, and to give people the chance to have their own 1st founding army. Yet people absolutely pounce on anyone for suggesting using them. I don't think I've ever seen a homebrew chapter/legion that is actually meant to be one of the missing ones, yet people seem to claim that there are 48 new missing legion chapters created every day.

Now, had this person come on and said;

"My chapter will be one of the missing legions, they all wear terminator armour, equipped with railguns, are women and are all made from the same tech as primarchs.... oh and they are immortal.... oh, and they are magic."

Then I could understand the attitude, but he's not even listed any fluff he has in mind at this point past "They will use heresy era equipment". For all anyone knows he could have had the most genius, intelligent and well thought out fluff that makes perfect sense and is a pleasure to read. Granted, its not that likely, but still, there's no need for the instant knee-jerk response of "No, go away".

(PS. Sorry to pick on your post Engel, you aren't the only one, but you were the first in this thread and it was a nice short neat post to quote).

But the fluff explicitly states that the missing legions do not exist anymore. Saying that a DYI chapter is one of the missing legions is equivalent to saying they they are 'magic'. But as I said in my earlier post, The First Heretic presents a small opening in the fluff which allows a 'missing legion successor'. But they would be an Ultramarine successor on paper.

[Dreadlordpaul]

The fluff for my chapter was that they are extremely arrogant and wish to die honourable deaths so as such they will go on missions which would leave even the space wolves shaking in the boots, they dont have any respect for the ultramarines or for tank war fare. They prefere to use their agility and speed to confuse their foes before dealing the death blow. As such they are hot heads and their tactics are laughed at by other chapters but any who have witnessed them in battle has seen how they can turn a battle around. They strike as fast as a angel but hit as hard as a dragon, hence their name the dragon angels

[totgeboren]

That is a pretty basic nice background. If you still want them to be of missing legion decent, you could for example have them as officially being of UM decent, but not showing the UM or their Primarch any respect (which would be puzzling to any Imperial official). Their reason for being disdainful towards the UM could be that they were somehow ill favoured (or perceived it as being ill favoured) by Guilliman during the heresy because they were not 'real' Ultramarines, and thus not fully trusted. Their Chapter could have been assigned to various low profile engagements, actively kept out of key conflicts, and following the death of Guilliman, they could simply have cut their ties with their step-father and his legion.

There are ways, but most people will at first glance sigh when someone says they have a 'missing legion' chapter.

[jareddm3]

What about making them similar to the consecrators? They reconsecrate the armour and weapons of the Fallen Dark Angels. Perhaps your chapter could do so with other chaos space marines. Obviously this would be a very slow process and be based on holy rituals dating back to the earliest days of the Ecclesiarchy, but it would allow them to make use of a lot of heresy era and pre-heresy equipment.

[Dreadlordpaul]

That is a pretty basic nice background. If you still want them to be of missing legion decent, you could for example have them as officially being of UM decent, but not showing the UM or their Primarch any respect (which would be puzzling to any Imperial official). Their reason for being disdainful towards the UM could be that they were somehow ill favoured (or perceived it as being ill favoured) by Guilliman during the heresy because they were not 'real' Ultramarines, and thus not fully trusted. Their Chapter could have been assigned to various low profile engagements, actively kept out of key conflicts, and following the death of Guilliman, they could simply have cut their ties with their step-father and his legion.

There are ways, but most people will at first glance sigh when someone says they have a 'missing legion' chapter.

that is a great idea i never thought of that also it gives me a fluffy reason to fight against ultramarine armies

[jareddm3]

that is a great idea i never thought of that also it gives me a fluffy reason to fight against ultramarine armies

It's fine, as long as you're willing to accept you're basing it on information that was confirmed to be false by the author.

[Dreadlordpaul]

It's fine, as long as you're willing to accept you're basing it on information that was confirmed to be false by the author.

that is a good point, for some reason all my armies seem to do amazing vs ultrasmurfs

[FashaTheDog]

But the fluff explicitly states that the missing legions do not exist anymore. Saying that a DYI chapter is one of the missing legions is equivalent to saying they they are 'magic'. But as I said in my earlier post, The First Heretic presents a small opening in the fluff which allows a 'missing legion successor'. But they would be an Ultramarine successor on paper.

Even the bits I have seen that state the missing Legions no longer exist is vague enough to leave their fate in question. It could be that not all the Legion members were killed or reassigned or whatever became of them, but instead are still out there. Perhaps the Legion(s) simply left known space. The Legion may be a shadow of what it was, dead in name and dead by the decree of the Emperor, but those once part of it carry on in some manner or another for some reason, perhaps mourning their Legion as lost, but still carrying on their Primarch's work. They can fit into existing fluff without issue as they are simply written off as just more traitors to be killed and who cares from whence they came. The clues out there are vague enough that there are some many ways to go about it.

To integrate a lost Legion into the fluff is a fun creative challenge and it can be done because even with the Black Library tidbits here and there in the Horus Heresy series, the two Legions are still so vague and unknown that there exists a great range of options for those looking to try to make it work. While not all such attempts succeed, stifling them out of hand just because they tried seems rather condescending. There should be encouraging constructive criticism when someone asks what people think of their Legion or how they can go about making it work, the same thing when someone says, this is my whatever Founding Chapter fluff; offer what is known and try and help them write their way around the obstacles. At least, that's how I feel when someone wants to try and run their Marines as lost Legionnaires.