A debate on the rules of the Sisters of Twilight (WE special character)

[Rob and Roll]

Hello fellow rule enthousiasts (or at least those that are curious enough to click on the title of this thread. I want to use this thread to clear all rules concearning the Sisters of Twilight.

After searching this forum, some wood elf fora, and reading the official FAQ, I am under the impression it is not possible. So I challange you all to help me finish this quest for clarity. There are several things I find unclear and I would like to have them as clear as possible before fielding them. I am aware of the 'most important rule off all' and the 'role-off' but I would like to see where our collective minds get us. Without any further delay I will write down what I have so far:


A debate on the type of unit and the associated wounds, rules and allocation.

The sisters of twilight have 2 options as mount, a forest dragon and a great eagle.

When fielded on the forest dragon things seem pretty clear. The dragon is a monster and thus the rules for characters riding a monster are used. The extra allocation works as written and things seem clear.

Things get interesting when you field the sisters on a great eagle. The great eagle is considered a monstrous beast by both the wood elf armybook and the BRB. This would make the sisters a monstrous cavalry unit. These rules force you to combine the wounds and toughness profiles, using the highest one. As they are 2 seperate characters on one monstrous beast, this leads to a strange situation. If you apply the rule, it could mean both sisters use the highest amount of wounds (3 each for a total of 6) or that the entire model has the total of 3 wounds. Or we could sort of ignore this rule and use the original 2 wounds on each of the sisters (as inteded?)
But then we have the wound allocation. The sisters have a special rule which forces shots to be randomised among both sisters, but they are actually 1 model now (since they are a monstrous cavelry). If we only use the total number of 3 wounds for the entire model, randomising seems useless and feels out of place, so that is probably not the right way. If we use the 3 wounds on each of the sisters, they suddenly seem quit hard to kill (as you need to kill both in the same phase or they will simply return). That doenst really feel like the rule as inteded but is the most logic consequence to me when you apply the 8th edition rules to this 6.5th edition special character.

However we have a strange ruling in the Wood Elf FAQ concearning the great eagle. It stated that both the dragon and the eagle react with a 5-6 result on the monster reaction table. This means either GW considers the great eagle a monster (contrarely to their own BRB) or they made a mistake in the FAQ and accidentally added the eagle to the dragon question. If we would use the eagle as a monter, the rules would be much clearer. However a monster has some added benefits like a thunderstomp (instead of a normal stomp), which seems strange and overpowered for a 50pt eagle.

Whatever becomes of this thread, I plan to finish my own version of this special character and use it in friendly games. I hope to use them in a tournament though, without fear of causing to much fuzz on how I use them.


Well there you have it. What unit type would you give the Sisters of Twilight on a Great Eagle. And what wounds and rules for allocation do you use?

[Scalebug]

Monstrous cavalry, each sister as per their own rules having their own wounds (3, for using their eagles stat).

It's one of those things that get wierded up in edition changes when going by "Armybook trumps BRB", when using "legacy" armylists, sometimes for an advantage (as here, or Eye of the gods allowing 0+ saves), sometimes for a disadvantage (skink stegadon crew vs. cannonballs). Just roll with it until the book gets updated.

The obvious thing would of course to send a line to the tournament organizers of the event you are planning to attend, asking them how it will be resolved.

[Rob and Roll]

Thank you for your awnser.

Does this mean you can let them join a unit of Warhawk Riders at the cost of loosing some special rules the Warhawk Riders have?

[Tuttivillus]

Thank you for your awnser.

Does this mean you can let them join a unit of Warhawk Riders at the cost of loosing some special rules the Warhawk Riders have?

No, as for Characters cannot join flying units. I know, a silly rule, but still a rule or : dura lex, sed lex ;p

[theunwantedbeing]

I agree with scalebug on how they work, now it's worth giving them the great eagle!

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

No, as for Characters cannot join flying units. I know, a silly rule, but still a rule or : dura lex, sed lex ;p

Characters not joining flying units does not apply to Flying Cav if they are mounted on Flying Cav as well.

A LM Cheif on a terrordon can join a unit of Terrordon Riders but a LM Chief with the Cloak of Feathers (fly special rule) can not join that same unit of Terrordons.

[Hell Storm]

Characters not joining flying units does not apply to Flying Cav if they are mounted on Flying Cav as well.

A LM Cheif on a terrordon can join a unit of Terrordon Riders but a LM Chief with the Cloak of Feathers (fly special rule) can not join that same unit of Terrordons.

That isn't ever mentioned in the rules. It states that a character may not join a flying unit. No exceptions. Read pg 97.

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

That isn't ever mentioned in the rules. It states that a character may not join a flying unit. No exceptions. Read pg 97.

That is talking about infantry and characters on foot. Otherwise a Tomb King in a Chariot could never join a unit of Chariots, etc.
Page 104 -105 addresses Characters and mounts. The character and mount take on the rules for both.
i.e.- A Tomb King in a Chariot has all the Chariot Rules (which allows him to join a chariot unit) as well as his own Special Rules.

[Hell Storm]

That is talking about infantry and characters on foot. Otherwise a Tomb King in a Chariot could never join a unit of Chariots, etc.
Page 104 -105 addresses Characters and mounts. The character and mount take on the rules for both.
i.e.- A Tomb King in a Chariot has all the Chariot Rules (which allows him to join a chariot unit) as well as his own Special Rules.

The reason Tomb King characters on chariots can join units of chariots (and only chariots) is because of the "And The Tomb Kings Rode To War" special rule, not because of any rule in the BRB. On page 97, it tels you exactly which units a character can join and which ones he can't. It never states that these rules only apply if he is a certain unit type. They apply at all times unless stated otherwise (e.g. is a monster/riding a monster). So while a character on a flying mount has the fly rule, he still isn't given permission to join a unit of fliers. If I am wrong, then please give me a quote from the BRB saying so.

[Iraf]

Hell Storm is correct.

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

So a Skink Chief on a Terrordon cannot join a unit of Terrordons?
A Hearld of Khorne on a Juggernaught cannot join a unit of Blood Crushers?

They gain the same unit type as thier mount, so whatever thier mount is allowed to join they gain that as well as being a character.
Page 104-105 Characters and Mounts.

[Hell Storm]

A Herald of Khorne can join a unit of Bloodcrushers because it says so an pg 97 under the heading "What unit Can I Join?". Go back and read these two paragraphs again. The units you may not join are Chariots, Monsters, or Fliers. Monstrous Calvary has nothing to do with it.

[Iraf]

So a Skink Chief on a Terrordon cannot join a unit of Terrordons?
A Hearld of Khorne on a Juggernaught cannot join a unit of Blood Crushers?

They gain the same unit type as thier mount, so whatever thier mount is allowed to join they gain that as well as being a character.
Page 104-105 Characters and Mounts.

No to the Skink Chief joining the flyers, yes to the Bloodcrushers question. Pg 97 describes this fully. Nowhere on page 104-105 is this contradicted. The character gains all the benefits/abilities of the appropriate classifications, such as riding a terradon would give you the flying calvary classification, and thus he would gain vanguard, and flying abilities. That is what page 104-105 details. In fact the last sentence on page 104 specifically spells out that you must follow all the rules for characters and cavalry models.

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

A Herald of Khorne can join a unit of Bloodcrushers because it says so an pg 97 under the heading "What unit Can I Join?". Go back and read these two paragraphs again. The units you may not join are Chariots, Monsters, or Fliers. Monstrous Calvary has nothing to do with it.

I have read it and again I would argue you are talking about a character on foot. Pages 104-105 address a character who is mounted.

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

No to the Skink Chief joining the flyers, yes to the Bloodcrushers question. Pg 97 describes this fully. Nowhere on page 104-105 is this contradicted. The character gains all the benefits/abilities of the appropriate classifications, such as riding a terradon would give you the flying calvary classification, and thus he would gain vanguard, and flying abilities. That is what page 104-105 details. In fact the last sentence on page 104 specifically spells out that you must follow all the rules for characters and cavalry models.

If that is the case than a lot of lizardman players are playing it incorrectly.

[Hell Storm]

I have read it and again I would argue you are talking about a character on foot. Pages 104-105 address a character who is mounted.

If is this for a character on foot only, find me the sentence on that page that states that.

P.s. You can't because it isn't there.

[Iraf]

If that is the case than a lot of lizardman players are playing it incorrectly.

I don't believe a lot are. In fact I think it would come up more with Bretonnian Pegasus Knights and characters mounted on Pegasi, then it would with Terradons. What a terrible choice for a skink chief, riding a Terradon. They are all going to die if they actually charge into combat. Their only true value is dropping rocks, which would be cheaper to just get another Terradon rider then to put a chief on a Terradon. From now on you should argue your point with the Pegasi, as Terradons are just absurd

[Mr_Rose]

If that is the case than a lot of lizardman players are playing it incorrectly.

No they're not.
Just like how TKs have their special rule that allows them to join chariot units, Skink Chiefs (or their terradon mounts, I forget which) have a special rule which allows them to join terradon units.

Every example you've cited so far has been either allowed by the main rulebook, or has had an exception created for it in the relevant army book. A fascinating pattern you've got going; perhaps for your next iteration you could try squig hoppas and great cave squig mounts?

[Hell Storm]

Mr. Rose is correct. Terradon Riders do have a special rule allowing a character to join them. Unfortunately Wood Elves don't; which is what this thread is about.

[Iraf]

Skink Chiefs (or their terradon mounts, I forget which) have a special rule which allows them to join terradon units.

Character Mount paragraph , Pg 52 of Lizardmen AB.