Would Eldar Monofilament Weapons Work?

[Cthell]

I realise that trying to apply real-world physics to 40k is an exercise in futility, but this is more of a matter of common sense (at least I think it is)

Eldar make a lot of use of monofilament weaponry (enough to get a section in the fluff armoury of the 4th ed Codex) and the reported effects seem to vary widely.

The weapon mechanism is generally based around creating a web of very thin, high-tensile "wire" and draping it over the target.

In the 3rd Ed codex, this caused damage through the target struggling against the "web", causing the wire to bite into their flesh - because the wire was both thin and strong, it could cut deep into flesh with little effort.

This seems pretty reasonable - anyone who has walked into a spiderweb will know that it can "cut" into your skin a surprising amount (although it isn't strong enough to break the skin)

With the advent of the WD nightspinner rules, the fluff mechanism was changed to "web of wire is launched high into the air and falls to the earth - it is so sharp that it cuts clean through anything in the way"

The problem I have with the "new" (nightspinner) fluff is two-fold. Firstly, the monofilament is both extremely light and would have a very large surface-area-to-volume ratio, meaning it would fall extremely slowly, and with very little force behind it. If it encountered an obstacle, it would simply drape over it. Secondly, the most likely cutting mechanism for monofilament would be shear, which requires lateral movement - to give an example, it is possible to climb a ladder made of swords with bare feet, provided that care is taken to lower the foot directly onto the cutting edge; at the same time if you drag a feather along the edge it will cut in two under its own weight.

A similar problem applies to the dreaded "monomolecular whip" of other science fiction settings - the whip would be so light that it must have almost no kinetic energy; it would be like trying to use a spider's web as a whip.

Or have I made a massive error somewhere in my thinking?

[Inquisitor Aaron]

Monomolecular filament, basically a molecule thick right?

Wouldn't it kinda kinda fall through you and cut you up, or am I just like super wrong here?

[Cthell]

I didn't think it would, since it weighs practically nothing. There's not enough power to overcome the bonds between atoms/molecules that hold your body together.

At least, that's what my memories of physics said, but I'm not sure, so I decided to ask the internet

[koran]

I think you're right on the call that the wire would be very light but think that being SO thin that even that weight would be enough to make it cut skin (maybe not bone or armour but then that explains the AP). As for the speed of the fall being too slow (or even worse, the wind blowing it back straight to your own lines!) or a whip being too light to be used in a whipping action I think that's a good call. I would suggest that there would have to be something heavy around the net to make it fall correctly, at a decent speed and to not let wind blow it off course. If there was something heavy at the end of the whip this would also work.

[The Devourer]

I'd go with Koran's explanation as it overcomes any problems very simply. The net needs to have more weight otherwise firing would be impossible it wouldn't overcome air resistance- like throwing a feather. Weights distributed around the edge make the simplest explanation.

[ForgottenLore]

I have always thought that sci-fi games exagerated the effect a monofiliment would have. A monomolecular edge (long carbon nanotube) would be very very sharp, but that doesn't imbue it with magical "cut everything with no force" properties. I was always pleased by the description of the Warp Spider's weapon because it made mono wire make sense as a weapon.

That said, most of the RPGs I can remember that feature mono-whips specify that they have a weighted end allowing them to be used effectively, I imagine the nightspinner net could work the same way.

Side note, I once thought of a scenario for shadowrun that involved a corp that only hired dwarven security personnel, when an alarm was tripped in the building, mono wire fibers would shoot out along the corridors at a height of 5'. The security guards could run through the building with no problem, but anyone taller than that would likely be decapitated. Never got a chance to actually use it on some players though.

[Stonerhino]

Most nets will be weighted at the edges. Like a cast nets for example. I always pictured Eldar "Nets" doing something simular. And with the net itself being monofilament, the weights don't need to be to heavy.

On a side note. That's just dirty ForgottenLore.

[ForgottenLore]

On a side note. That's just dirty ForgottenLore.

Yeah, I thought so.

[Connor MacLeod]

As I recall the monofilament artillery wasn't supposed to slice things immediately on contact. Rather, it drifts down and covers people and things and gets tangled up, and when they try to get free or struggle their own actions cause them to get cut up. It may not work right away.

A few other weapons (like Harlequin's kisses) seem to be like 'shape memory alloys' in some sense - or perhaps some sort of psychically guided/controlled attack (ti seems to have at least several 'forms' it goes through to do its effect, although the 'psychic control' might describe its nature better.)

I figure warp spider weapons work more like Walter's death wires in Hellsing.

And as Forgottenlore says, monomol seems to get overused in sci fi as a cliche for 'super sharp cuts trhough anything.'

[MyNameDidntFit]

Who is to say the monomolecular wires are light? They may be light relative to a solid steel blade, but it is not at all unreasonable to assume that, on a molecular level, they are made of a material that would be considered heavy.

[Hendarion]

Who is to say the monomolecular wires are light? They may be light relative to a solid steel blade, but it is not at all unreasonable to assume that, on a molecular level, they are made of a material that would be considered heavy.

Well, weight is an absolute value, but if you combine it with volume space, then it turns into density (is that the right English word?). A net made of monomols would have a very very low density and thus may cause extremely high friction forces which is bad for something you want to throw or shoot. Also it is questionable why the bonds of the net-molecules shall be stronger than those of a thick (in comparison to a molecule even paper is insanely thick) armour plate or even flesh and bone. Also sharpness itself isn't the key to cutting something, but the applied force is. You could cut a human with a 1cm thick metal plate it you apply enough force. It is questionable if a molecule can have enough force to cut something by itself. And if so, shouldn't air or dust cut us in slices very badly? Or human hairs thrown at someone...

[Lord-Caerolion]

Well, the Warp Spider weapons are described as firing a mass of the material, as well as numerous "anchors" that stretch the material between them, forming the web, from what I remember. Given that the Nightspinner looks like an upscaled version of the Warp Spider gun, I assume it works in the same way, in that the wire doesn't have any real weight, but the anchors attached to it do the pulling. I also seem to remember that Epic 40k mentions that the Eldar have a variant of the Nightspinner that attaches a compound to the web that breaks down all organic tissue (something only Biel-Tan use, as they want to literally wipe their worlds clean of the Mon-Keigh filth, and most other Craftworlds see them as too vicious), so perhaps the webs have an acidic compound mixed into the material, to help cut through what they land on?

[Stonerhino]

Monofilament weapons are sharp because of the force over the cutting surface. Because of the tiny tiny contact area, the surface preasure is greatly magnified.

[MyNameDidntFit]

While sharpness is not inherently required to cut something, it does indeed make for a massively reduced amount of force required, as Stonerhino noted. There's a reason why your kitchen knife is sharp (try using the handle to cut your meat ).

Other than that, you have to take into account that this is a science fiction universe in which the elements and molecules that we know are not the full extent of the spectrum--it's entirely possible that Eldar monomolecular filaments are made of a molecule that is ultra-dense and is thus able to exert a much greater force upon the material it strikes than conventional materials might be able to, thus enabling it to shear the bonds of the molecules composing it.

In the end it comes down to the first like of the OP's post, but it's still fun to debate such fickle things

[Cthell]

The Beil-Tan super-heavy nightspinner (I forget the actual name) gets its "dissolve stuff" mechanic from coating the web in Wraithbone Nanites; If you wanted to do it now you'd probably use the "entropic strike" rule to represent it (and on a 10" template that would be nasty).

I hadn't heard the fluff that mentioned "anchors" on the web before; it would explain how the "falling" mechanic is supposed to work. (I always thought that the monofilament was able to "stick" to itself somehow so thrashing around under it would just make it pull tighter)

[Sai-Lauren]

That said, most of the RPGs I can remember that feature mono-whips specify that they have a weighted end allowing them to be used effectively, I imagine the nightspinner net could work the same way.

IIRC, the first ever reference to a mono-filament whip is the William Gibson short story Johnny Mnemonic, where the assassin sent after him has one implanted into the base of his thumb (coiled up on a diamond reel when not in use), with the thumb itself as the weight. The weight keeps the wire taut when it's swung.

The Eldar could weight it, or potentially use fields (magnetic, gravitic, telekenesis from the gunner or a bonesinger or whatever) on the wire, pulling it down and through the target.

Side note, I once thought of a scenario for shadowrun that involved a corp that only hired dwarven security personnel, when an alarm was tripped in the building, mono wire fibers would shoot out along the corridors at a height of 5'. The security guards could run through the building with no problem, but anyone taller than that would likely be decapitated. Never got a chance to actually use it on some players though.

I thought of a seduction-assassin using one, implanted in her neck, so she kisses the target, gently pulls the wire around the back of their neck whilst they're distracted and locks it in place somewhere else on her neck, then winds in the reel and decapitates them.

[Shamana]

With the long-range nets used by the nightspinner I do think they'd need something to make them reach the target faster and be more resistant to wind. Perhaps a two-step process in which the tank actually fires canisters, who then cast out the filament cloud with some internal mechanism - explosion, some sort of pressure field etc?

[Grimgork]

I might be wrong but I always imagined the artillery type of monofilament to fire a small knot of the stuff that then "explodes" on impact and thus giving the net its force. But I might be wrong. At least it is reasonable enough for me

[totgeboren]

I see it as Grimgork too. As someone who has studied very small particles in air (I have looked at particles as small as 0,01 nanometers using Electron Sweep Microscopy amongst other things), I can say, no, the monofilament as barrage would not work as it is described.
The wire would be much thinner than the particles I studied, and at that scale, Newtonian momentum doesn't play much role, those sorts of physics only work at a scale of around 10 nanometers and above. The behaviour is determined by Brownian motion, the same rules that govern how gas behaves. So the density of the web would still be important, but flinging such a web into the air would make it behave kinda like ink in water. And I don't see how it could slice people to death.

But this is scifi, I try not to get so hung up on the details. It's a web that is made of sharp threads which kill people. Done.

[prowla]

The wire would be much thinner than the particles I studied, and at that scale, Newtonian momentum doesn't play much role, those sorts of physics only work at a scale of around 10 nanometers and above.

So happens that largest synthetic molecule is around 10 nm big. "Monomolecular" doesn't tell that much, except that it's from the smallest end of things - a single molecule can be as small as two hydrogen atoms, or it can reach the weight and size of millions of hydrogen atoms.

However, I'm willing to accept it's very thin and strong wire that they are somehow able to launch and/or push, and it can cut flesh if force is applied. However, one thing eludes me.. how are they able to struggle their way out of the web? If it's a super-strong giant spiderweb, it'd take a while to struggle free.