Would Eldar Monofilament Weapons Work?

[Happicus]

I think it is better to assume that monomolecular is just sci-fi speak for very thin very strong rather than literally one molecule. Once you get to the molecular level the physics just start to work differently. You have to think about the strength of the bonds between molecules and the bond between atoms in those molecules. The best analogy I can think of is imagine trying to use a chain of magnets to cut apart a ball of magnets. And to put it into scale the ball you are cutting through has to be the size of a house. Your chain of magnets (or molecules) has to be held together more strongly than whatever you are cutting and that is just one of the problems.

But even ignoring the monomolecular bit you still run into problems with the idea of a web spinner. Anything spread out that much would create huge amounts of drag. Yes, you can overcome this by weighting the edges but then you have to propel the weights with enough force to overcome the web parachute slowing them down. It is more practical to just project the weights at a higher speed without the web and count on them to do the damage.

While a lethal web gun sounds cool in real world application it is going to be limited to short range non-lethal.

[Cthell]

Perhaps we've gotten words mixed up?

The Fluff talks of "monofilament", while most people seem to be talking about "monomolecular"

Checking Wiktionary (terrible source, but convenient) it says that "monofilament" can mean "monomolecular" but is also a type of fishing line made from a single strand of (extruded) polymer. This version of monofilament seems more in keeping with the fluff - it is described as being an organo-polymer extruded through gravity clams.

So perhaps monofilament is more like a higher-tensile strength version of kevlar, with a filament diameter measured in microns, not nanometers?

[carlisimo]

I don’t see what’s wrong with assuming that weights are fired along with the web. All the spinner weapon models have protrusions that you could say are the weight launchers.

Shurikens are supposedly one molecule thick, too. Would that actually kill you, or would you heal right up after one passed through?

[MarcoSkoll]

I think you're right on the call that the wire would be very light but think that being SO thin that even that weight would be enough to make it cut skin

Cutting requires pressure - force divided by area. Force, in this case, is weight, which is gravity times mass. Mass is density times volume.
Volume is a cube function. Area is a quadratic function. What this means is that as you scale down, volume is decreased by more than area is, reducing pressure.

Thus, you're more likely to be cut by someone dropping a strand of hair on you than you are someone dropping monofilament on you. Anyway, we regularly deal with things that are molecularly sharp and molecularly heavy - for example, Air or Water. Neither has a particular reputation for cutting skin to shreds.

Monofilament would only be useful in the circumstances that it could be imparted with extra force. The issue with extra force is of course making it strong enough to cope with that.
The Infinity universe has the solution of having the filament suspended in an electromagnetic field, which means it can be imparted with force and withstand force. The downside is a susceptibility to EM-weapons. I like the idea though, one of the more practical approaches to the concept. But a lot rarer than 40k's version - and a lot nastier too, ignoring armour and insta-killing anything it wounds ("anything" including things roughly analogous in size and nastiness to a Dreadnought).

Shurikens are supposedly one molecule thick, too. Would that actually kill you, or would you heal right up after one passed through?

If it actually went through you (the above problem about mass and area coming into play), yes, of course. It'd cut anything important along the way - tendons, bones, arteries, nerves. The two halves might fit together perfectly, but that doesn't mean they're still attached to each other.

[lovelessmerc]

Caught in a spider web that cuts you like razorblades..... not very good against a bradly, aka space marines, but will turn a rifleman into into red goo.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Caught in a spider web that cuts you like razorblades..... not very good against a bradly, aka space marines, but will turn a rifleman into into red goo.

And that's pretty much what they used to do (in 2nd ed). No to wound roll, fail your armour save and your dead. They also used to have terrible armour penetration, but if you did managed to roll enough sixes in a row to penetrate a vehicle the crew would be dead.

[Novafix]

I once killed a Pred in 2nd edition with a Warp Spider that was a 6 rolling daemon My opponent was not pleased.

[Happicus]

If it actually went through you (the above problem about mass and area coming into play), yes, of course. It'd cut anything important along the way - tendons, bones, arteries, nerves. The two halves might fit together perfectly, but that doesn't mean they're still attached to each other.

I am not entirely convinced that this is the case. Again, physics works differently on that scale. In order to "cut" something you have to pull the molecules far enough apart to break the bond between them. Can you cut the bond between molecules with another molecule? How long would it take those bonds to reform? Would the damage done be like a cut or more like damage caused by huge amounts of radiation in that highly localized area?

I can't answer any of those questions, my area of expertise is moving little toy Soldiers around a tabletop. Science is the magic of sci-fi. Just because I don't believe it works or know that it does not exist; that does not ruin my enjoyment. Sometimes it is just better to turn off your higher brain functions to enjoy the game.

[Tarsus]

I always pictured the eldar web weapons as a kind of deadly sticky string. You get hit and covered by a massive amount of sticky sharp wire and its the act of trying to untangle yourself that does the damage and not the weapons impact. Kind of like a super thin barbed wire, its not inherently dangerous, until you are tangled up in it and begin to struggle.

[Novafix]

I can't answer any of those questions, my area of expertise is moving little toy Soldiers around a tabletop. Science is the magic of sci-fi. Just because I don't believe it works or know that it does not exist; that does not ruin my enjoyment. Sometimes it is just better to turn off your higher brain functions to enjoy the game.

It's like how IRL being shot by a Plasma Cannon would vapourise you but in game 1 in 6 (on a 1 to wound) would still be stood there fully able to carry on.

Death Spinners / Shadow Weavers / Night Spinners slice you to bits. How? Eldar tech.

[AndrewGPaul]

slicy monofilament weapons are already magic. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the material they're made from is incredibly dense, so that the atom-thick strands have the same sort of weight as copper wire, or something.

[Hendarion]

And still, putting some sponge made of metallic fibres on your skin does not cut you. I doubt that by simply making it smaller (and thus lighter too) anything would change unless you manage to apply some nifty force to it and still manage not to tear it apart.
Even if the concept doesn't work, it sounds evil. Just like Plasma Guns, Vibro Cannons, Power Fists or Chain Swords.

[Sai-Lauren]

Shurikens are supposedly one molecule thick, too. Would that actually kill you, or would you heal right up after one passed through?

Depending on where it hit, it'd kill you - think of it as a full penetration paper cut (see the opening of Cube with the wire mesh trap, or the laser tunnel in the original Resident Evil movie), if one hit your hand, the first thing you'd know about it is when your fingers fell off.

You certainly wouldn't heal instantly, although if you survived, the wound would subsequently heal very quickly (as there's not a massive amount to regenerate, at worst a few layers of cells either side of the cut. Blood vessels would start to leak shortly after (although they might also clot very quickly) and nerves might still fire for a short while whilst they remain in enough contact to transmit the electrical impulses, but tendons and muscles would just pull apart the instant a muscle contracted, and bones would also slide apart.

IMO, at this level, you're generally not breaking intra-molecular bonds (between atoms in the same molecule), you're breaking the inter-molecular bonds (from one molecule to another), forcing open the interstices between molecules in the solid material, generating and propagating nano-scale cracks along crystalline boundaries and through flaws.

As for being one molecule thick, that's not all that good a measure of small-ness - there's some protein molecules which are massive compared to, say, a water molecule.

[insectum7]

And still, putting some sponge made of metallic fibres on your skin does not cut you. I doubt that by simply making it smaller (and thus lighter too) anything would change unless you manage to apply some nifty force to it and still manage not to tear it apart.

Just think of a long, continuous x-acto blade that's wrapped around you and slowly gets tighter.

The 2nd ed Warp Spider version describes the wire flinging about when unraveling by it's own tensions and projected by a magnetic field, so it's got some force to it too. I seem to remember an image somewhere of a Warp Spider holding some of the web in its hand as though he had just pulled on it, or could pull on it while victims were entangled. Or, the gun could quickly re-spool the wire after projecting it, so monofilament wire is fired out over an area and tangles up enemies who are caught in the web or tangle themselves by their own motions, then the wire is quickly yanked back into the gun while enemies are caught in it. Diced.

[Hendarion]

You certainly wouldn't heal instantly

Since the cut is on a molecular level and the separated molecules would still be very very close to each other, you don't know if you really would notice that cut. You know, matter is mostly only empty space, because atoms are relatively far from each other (means compared to the size of an atom, there is incredibly large space to the next). I'm not that sure if that cut will do anything or if the body-molecules would just "re-attach" due to atomic level forces. Just check how water forms drops because of inner adhesion and surface tension. Such drops contain billions of water molecules and if you cut it, nothing happens, it re-attaches unless you manage to pull them off far enough *and* separate two entire drop halves which you can't really do with a single wire, you need a large blade or make the halves drift away from each other while cutting. I imagine it similar how you can cut ice with a thin wire and pure force. The wire wanders through the ice, but doesn't cause any damage. And that is not even on atomic level yet, but with a wire that is millions of atoms thick.

Just think of a long, continuous x-acto blade that's wrapped around you and slowly gets tighter.

Well, if it is as described, just one molecule thick, it isn't really a blade as a blade has some stability to it. We don't know that for a monomol.

[Polaria]

Some molecules are way thicker than others. If its the thickness of a very long polymer chain, then the cut might actually be pretty nasty.

[Hendarion]

Well, I'm still trying to use a hair and force to cut myself and it doesn't work, no matter how hard I pull
(But well, a hair is thicker than the edge of a razor blade and to cut something is much easier if you make a sawing-movement)

[Sai-Lauren]

Since the cut is on a molecular level and the separated molecules would still be very very close to each other, you don't know if you really would notice that cut. You know, matter is mostly only empty space, because atoms are relatively far from each other (means compared to the size of an atom, there is incredibly large space to the next). I'm not that sure if that cut will do anything or if the body-molecules would just "re-attach" due to atomic level forces. Just check how water forms drops because of inner adhesion and surface tension. Such drops contain billions of water molecules and if you cut it, nothing happens, it re-attaches unless you manage to pull them off far enough *and* separate two entire drop halves which you can't really do with a single wire, you need a large blade or make the halves drift away from each other while cutting. I imagine it similar how you can cut ice with a thin wire and pure force. The wire wanders through the ice, but doesn't cause any damage. And that is not even on atomic level yet, but with a wire that is millions of atoms thick.

Don't forget that the edge will impart energy into the cut molecules, and as most cells in the body are collections of carbon-carbon bonds (eg, cell membranes), where the electrons are in a loose cloud (although pulled over to oxygens, nitrogens etc), some bits might separate into inert molecules, whilst others might become free radicals and try and reattach with another part-molecule of opposite charge, but that may not be the part they lost, resulting in the cellular structure collapsing, or they might strip an electron or two off whatever cut them as it passes.

For example, water molecules are very polarised, as the oxygen atom pulls the electrons to it away from the hydrogen atoms, which is why it does the strange things it does (basically, everything you mentioned is a result of that hydrogen bonding).

Also, when you cut ice with a wire, you merely supply enough pressure to raise the temperature enough to locally melt the ice underneath the wire - if the environment's cold enough, the ice would reform on top of the wire. Hit it with a hammer, then it'll break along the crystaline boundaries.

Or, if it's travelling fast enough, the molecules around the impact might simply vapourise off due to the energy involved.

Although it's more likely that the cell membranes, just like the crystalline interfaces in a solid, will simply separate - only the longer cells (nerves and muscles) and structures (bone) would need to be cut.

Well, I'm still trying to use a hair and force to cut myself and it doesn't work, no matter how hard I pull
(But well, a hair is thicker than the edge of a razor blade and to cut something is much easier if you make a sawing-movement)

That's simply down to pressure and material properties - if you could exert enough force on a hair to cut the skin, the hair will break first, wheras a razor blade is able to take those pressures. However, if you got a strand of spider silk, and a strand of steel the same length and diameter as the spider silk, and subjected them to the same stresses, the steel strand would break first.

[prowla]

The wire would be much thinner than the particles I studied, and at that scale, Newtonian momentum doesn't play much role, those sorts of physics only work at a scale of around 10 nanometers and above.

So happens that largest synthetic molecule is around 10 nm big. "Monomolecular" doesn't tell that much, except that it's from the smallest end of things - a single molecule can be as small as two hydrogen atoms, or it can reach the weight and size of millions of hydrogen atoms.

However, I'm willing to accept it's very thin and strong wire that they are somehow able to launch and/or push, and it can cut flesh if force is applied. However, one thing eludes me.. how are they able to struggle their way out of the web? If it's a super-strong giant spiderweb, it'd take a while to struggle free.

[Cthell]

They don't struggle free, they struggle dead

More seriously, the idea is that struggling causes the net to tighten, reducing the victim to a bloody ruin (at least that's how it was put in one of the older fluff pieces). On the other hand, hard armour is usually tough enough to break the monofilament, so space marines can generally just ignore the monofilament - of course, it can do nasty things if it wraps round a joint or other weakpoint.