Can anything compete with WH40K success as sci-fi?

[Lornak Bloodgreed]

We all feel the sting of Games Workshop and Citadel's prices. They are inflated, overpriced pieces of plastic that came from a mold. But guess what, those miniatures are nearly excellent quality and that's just half the battle. Warhammer 40,000's rules, are at their core, very fun rules to play against others with. The game has been designed, redesigned, and refined since the late 80's and with this experience the developers of the game have moved forward and tried new things to keep the game fresh. This however has come at great cost to us, the gamers, who have to buy a 60-80 dollar rulebook or rulebook set every 4 to 6 years rather than decade.

So I want to know from the educated and the experienced, can anything compete with Warhammer 40,000 for success in the sci-fi wargames genre of miniatures?

Infinity I know exists but the fact I've never even seen a model sold physically in a store tells me it's such a new or untested system that it has yet to become popular. The same goes with several others I've seen come along and I honestly have my doubts they will ever reach the level of success Games Workshop has earned.

I'm like many people out there. I have a lot of ideas that I would like to somehow put into physical reality. I have developed in my spare time some rules I keep in the back of my thoughts and from the experience earned by the developers at GW I've tried to move forward and make something just as or even more fun than their current rules. The problem always is, how would someone like myself start? Can I compete with such a well known and established company? How would I develop miniatures in plastic that would rival the quality and quantity of Games Workshop's miniature range while keeping prices lower than their standards? Could I develop these miniatures, rules, and books quickly? Could I develop the rules DIGITALLY to quicken the pace of production?

Questions and challenges like these need to be answered and so the question stands, can anything reasonably compete with Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000?

[cornonthecob]

Not really, the only thing roughly as popular as 40k is Warmachine/Hordes and they are fantasy.
The next biggest sci-fi game I know of is Battletech/Heavy Gear. They seem to be quite popular.

[shakespear]

Absolutely. Is it out now? Probably not.

Personally I have no interest in "gothic sci-fi" I would rather play hard/regular scifi.

Every year a new game comes out that is a success, that's less money for GW. Which is why they want to maximize profits on what you do buy.

The "ask me anything with a former GW employee" hurt them a bit more than you think. I saw hardcore GW fanboys dump everything on eBay or Bartertown.

One game wont do it, but 3-4? yeah it will happen

[leonmallett]

Not really, the only thing roughly as popular as 40k is Warmachine/Hordes and they are fantasy.
The next biggest sci-fi game I know of is Battletech/Heavy Gear. They seem to be quite popular.

I was thinking that at some point it will make sense for PP to grow with a more sci-fi style game, and then WH40K will have serious competition I guess - PP have learned a lot over the past 10 years and have grown their business; they are arguably the only manufacturer set up to compete in a comparable market (excluding pre paints from others etc.).

[AndrewGPaul]

Privateer Press announced they'll be doing a Sci Fi game a year or so ago, although it's obviously a long-term plan.

[shakespear]

Privateer Press announced they'll be doing a Sci Fi game a year or so ago, although it's obviously a long-term plan.

Oh yeah! People seem to think it will be GenCon this year

[cornonthecob]

The thing about 40k though is it is a very unique setting. Where else can all the lunacy of the 41st millenium be found ?

[Pokpoko]

To be honest...who cares? Wargaming may not be the largest hobby around, but good designs and non-derpy rules will sell. You don't have to go for GW's throat to be succesful. Like any business...start with trying to design and sell a Dreamliner, and you flop on your face. Start with tiny widdle cessna, and you have a good chance. Look at Warlord...they started with ONE, namely ONE plastic set a few years ago, and they now have giantic range of historical sets.

[iamfanboy]

Frankly, Warhammer 40k isn't good scifi. It's a hodgepodge of over a dozen different fantasy and scifi authors blended together and served lukewarm; the novels read like overgrown fanfiction when compared to the giants that created the actual ideas GW, ah, 'borrowed' to create their universe. Dune, Starship Troopers, Elric... all much better than GW's trashy attempts at adding fiction to their stuff. Oh, I don't mind some of the shorts that have been scattered throughout some of the books - one bit from an old, OLD Space Marine battle report still gives me chills - but the actual scifi is... lacking.


Battletech is MUCH better scifi, from a reading standpoint. The universe advances primarily THROUGH the fiction, and some really great authors have written and are still writing for Battletech. When was the last time the 40k universe actually advanced and CHANGED?

[EmperorNorton]

Frankly, Warhammer 40K is not SciFi at all, but fantasy in space.
It's fiction alright, but it's severely lacking in the science department, substituting magic for it.
That's not meant to be deprecative, because I enjoy the 40K background for what it is, but a neutral observation.

[dijit80]

Truth be told. 40k isn't a great set of rules. Alot of games are won/lost in the army build phase, there's little in the way of a morale system as most historical players know it - you've just had half your marine squad annihiliated? Well we're marines so we'll go and die the same way!
40K is only as big as it is because GW has had a very clever marketing strategy and a bit of luck, and the first and second editions were great at the time compared to many other wargames and GW has managed to capitalise on that ad the fact people stick with what they know for the most part. Let's face it 40K is not a good wargame, and compared to many current more modern wargames it feels rather dated as GW hasn't kept it fresh and many of the core mechanics are the same as when Warhammer was first published in the early 80's. I-go-you-go as been largely dropped by most modern game systems in favour of either simple alternate activation or reaction mechanics.

[Dixie Flatline]

Infinity I know exists but the fact I've never even seen a model sold physically in a store tells me it's such a new or untested system that it has yet to become popular. The same goes with several others I've seen come along and I honestly have my doubts they will ever reach the level of success Games Workshop has earned.

That really depends on the local community you live in. I've been to multiple store here in the Greater Toronto Area that all carry Infinity product

[shakespear]

Truth be told. 40k isn't a great set of rules. Alot of games are won/lost in the army build phase, there's little in the way of a morale system as most historical players know it - you've just had half your marine squad annihiliated? Well we're marines so we'll go and die the same way!
40K is only as big as it is because GW has had a very clever marketing strategy and a bit of luck, and the first and second editions were great at the time compared to many other wargames and GW has managed to capitalise on that ad the fact people stick with what they know for the most part. Let's face it 40K is not a good wargame, and compared to many current more modern wargames it feels rather dated as GW hasn't kept it fresh and many of the core mechanics are the same as when Warhammer was first published in the early 80's. I-go-you-go as been largely dropped by most modern game systems in favour of either simple alternate activation or reaction mechanics.

As more and more people try other games they slowly realize how bad a rule system it is. Its like being blind all your life and then suddenly able to see.

[Commissar Vaughn]

I doubt any one company will produce a game as big and popular as 40k or fantasy, but I suspect that the player base will diversify more over the years. In some places this is already evident: My gaming club has 40 regular members and has been going for a good 5-6 years so far, and when it started it was almost entirely 40k and warhammer based games. Now fantasy gets an outing one or twice a year, though 40k is represented by one or two games a week. The club members seem to have a much greater variety of games with a historical section (playing periods including ww2, ww1, Naps, ECW, AZW, WOTR, Ancients and WSS), warmachine, a variety of GW specialist games like space hulk, quest and inquisitor, several card games like MTG, LOTR and dystopian wars.

I dont think this trend is yet universal but give it 30 years and I bet GW is just one fish amongst many...

[shakespear]

I doubt any one company will produce a game as big and popular as 40k or fantasy, but I suspect that the player base will diversify more over the years. In some places this is already evident: My gaming club has 40 regular members and has been going for a good 5-6 years so far, and when it started it was almost entirely 40k and warhammer based games. Now fantasy gets an outing one or twice a year, though 40k is represented by one or two games a week. The club members seem to have a much greater variety of games with a historical section (playing periods including ww2, ww1, Naps, ECW, AZW, WOTR, Ancients and WSS), warmachine, a variety of GW specialist games like space hulk, quest and inquisitor, several card games like MTG, LOTR and dystopian wars.

I dont think this trend is yet universal but give it 30 years and I bet GW is just one fish amongst many...

Fantasy has already been surpassed:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/22215.html

[CelestialDragonKing]

Like others I hesitate to call 40k Sci-fi. It's more fantasy with a bit of sci-fi thrown in. Any game where you can bring a knife to a gun fight and still win is not realistic at all. I was a 40k for many many years until I just couldn't afford it any more. Then I found Infinity. Infinity needs only 10 to 20 figs to play and is HARD sci-fi. No psychics crap there. But there is Hackers! It not only has the detailed rules I like but fantastic figs as well.

For rules there has been many rules as good or better than 40k. Just the fact that they have to change them so much all the time tells me that they don't have it right. That or they they are changing them so you will buy more of X figure, which didn't work as well under the old rules. I also didn't care for the fact that everything deepened on your list. In Infinity you can pretty much get figs based on how they look and still do okay.

[IJW]

Fantasy has already been surpassed:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/22215.html

Aren't ICV2's figures only for independent stores (and are US-specific anyway)? As far as I remember they don't include (indeed can't because GW don't release the figures) any sales through GW's retail chain or webstore.

[Lornak Bloodgreed]

To me Sci-fi warfare combines stealth, melee, ranged, technology, and optionally aliens into a unique style of futuristic combat.

What Mass Effect did was give us just that stuff wrapped up in a unique package. What I picture a miniatures game being is different, but similar in most respects. I just wish I could have MY designs put into the same grey resin/plastic that Games Workshop uses.

edit: I would also like to know how someone like me, just an unemployed nobody could rise up and create a new game from scratch using the experiences and know-whats that I've had for a while now. If anyone has some LOGICAL, REALISTIC tips or possibilities for me I'd love to hear them in a PM or on this thread.

[Charistoph]

edit: I would also like to know how someone like me, just an unemployed nobody could rise up and create a new game from scratch using the experiences and know-whats that I've had for a while now. If anyone has some LOGICAL, REALISTIC tips or possibilities for me I'd love to hear them in a PM or on this thread.

You mean things like raising starting capital and selling the game before its built? Finding the artists to render your vision into formats you are unfamiliar with? Man, I wish I knew myself on how to do that.

[shakespear]

You mean things like raising starting capital and selling the game before its built? Finding the artists to render your vision into formats you are unfamiliar with? Man, I wish I knew myself on how to do that.

It's not hard, you just need to be and/or know a writer, a sculptor, a graphic designer, and an internet guru.

Strangely enough it does happen sometimes. Look up the Quar.