Can anything compete with WH40K success as sci-fi?

[dijit80]

edit: I would also like to know how someone like me, just an unemployed nobody could rise up and create a new game from scratch using the experiences and know-whats that I've had for a while now. If anyone has some LOGICAL, REALISTIC tips or possibilities for me I'd love to hear them in a PM or on this thread.

Having been a playtester for a few games now; most notably AE Bounty and Skulldred amongst a few lesser known ones. The first step to getting started is to actually create something. It might sound a little obvious, but write those core rules down, write a background story or create a thorough concept. Then collaborate; find people to work with who can share the vision and give good solid input and advice and be critical; then listen to them. This is all freetime you're spending on it, no ones going to pay you to do it. Then you need to put your money where you're mouth is and invest in it. Get a good artist to do some cover art; or if it's going to be mini specific find a good sculptor. The money has to come out of your own pocket first if anyone is going to be inclined to put money from their own pockets in it later.

As an aside me and a friend have been slowly working on a platoon level sci-fi game with the central concept of allowing you to use any models you want together in it and for it to be scalable from a band of heroes (magnificent seven, Firefly, etc) to a reinforced platoon. We'll soon be at a point where we need playtesters if anyone's interested? Send a PM if you are and I'll get in touch.
Duncan

[lbecks]

Battletech is a fun universe with a progressing story but everyone is human and the models are ugly. Mantic might be popular but the models aren't as impressive as GW's. I like Infinity's miniatures.

Go look on kickstarter at startup mini companies. Though technically not a startup that undersea game raised 18,000 dollars. Another guy raised a decent amount with some rules and no minis but how to build stuff out of lego.

For smaller companies in existence look at Soda Pop or Kingdom Death. They're more boutique-y (and both are fantasy-ish) but it's the story of people having a vision, hiring the talent, and making it happen.

If you want plastic miniatures on sprues you can ask renedra for a quote. But plastic on sprues is very expensive.

[Shrapnelsmile]

The thing about 40k though is it is a very unique setting. Where else can all the lunacy of the 41st millenium be found ?

A re-hashed Judeo-Christian "fall of the servant" mythology backdrop is not super unique. I really enjoy the 40K setting -- it's dark and gritty, but the actual story of what happened to explain the fluff can be at least matched in interesting quality by Privateer Press IMO.

[Dixie Flatline]

A re-hashed Judeo-Christian "fall of the servant" mythology backdrop is not super unique.

Lol, I always did feel like I was reading the Bible when reflecting on the Horus Heresy novels. IMO, 40K fluff has done a really good job taking a bunch of other ideas and making them one however.

[BobbaFett]

Interesting thread.
Ok, let's re-evaluate the question. What is Success?

Making cool miniatures.
Does GW make the best miniatures in the world. They do (arrogantly) say so. That coudl work if companies just make Space Marines, and GW makes great Space Marines, I'm agree. I still haven't seen any female miniature from GW that can be compared to what Infinity, Soda Pop, Anima or other companies make. In fact, Infinity has trully great pieces of human anatomy. Let's face it, the term "Heroic Scale" is just a way to say big headed guys with giant hands. it is a matter of style.



Quality of the copies.
Is GW really the best here? really? after the finecast crap that they have released? really? after releasing green stuff for fixing the *********ng mess of products they have released? I can think of many companies that have more quality in their casting. once again Infinity, Red Box, Helldorado... many other companies achieve more quality in their minis.



Rules System.
Is WH40K the best set of rules that you have ever played? really? can't you think of anything better? really? I'm sure that you and your friends can think a better set of rules in a single weekend. So, what is the problem? the problem is that the first game that everyone plays is WH40K and that is completely recorded in your hipothalamus. No one can make anything original, because everyone has 40k in their *********** gwzombie brains.
And if someone dares to release a game with a rules system that goes too much away from 40k tree... players wont' support it because "...it feels weird and different, meehh... where are the spess mahreens here? I want something new and different...but with skulls, tyranids and mareens, you know... like Starcraft 2".

Popularity.
Yes. This is the place where WH40k reigns. It is the most popular miniature game ever. it is the game that has the bigger player base. You can almost play it anywhere in the world (and have endless rules discussions with other players everywhere). But, a company that has been here for more than 30 years, has to be that big. Is the company that wants you to play their game forever, and wants you not to try any other game ever, and wants you to buy their rulebook and codex... and they buy them again... and then buy them again... and your miniatures are not allowed now for tournament because they have released new versions... in finecast.... but they are still popular.
Imagine a small companie that, from one day to another, changes the basic production of their product a loses tons of quality. Will that company survive? NO. But GW can sell finecast and people buy it. I have only witnessed that level of control over the wargaming community in comic-books before.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Money.
This is the point that makes the difference. Money, this is what makes a company BIG. And many wargamers only respect that. "This is the bigger company so their game has to be the best". GW has a lot of money, your money. They have been earning so much money that they have become addicted to it, they are forcing their brains to think how can they suck more money from your pockets. Sometimes they have a great idea like: -"Let´s make more Spess Mahreens, gnah! this time they will be green!"
And people will still buy it, because everyone that steps away from 40k has to walk alone through the valley of Small companies and unpopular games... maybe they are funny, maybe they have better miniatures, metal quality copies, prices, solid rules and a respectful attitude to their customers... but they are not 40k.

Conclusion.
A company can make better miniatures, better rules, better copies, better designs, whatever. It is the GWzombie mass that keeps making GW the biggest and most sucessfull miniature company ever. If all those players don't change their attitude and keep buying the SAME GAME year after year things wont change. Even if Steve Jobs wakes up from the grave, creates the best game ever and sells gold miniatures for 1$ it will not beat GW because people just want Space Marines.

Infinity I know exists but the fact I've never even seen a model sold physically in a store tells me it's such a new or untested system that it has yet to become popular. The same goes with several others I've seen come along and I honestly have my doubts they will ever reach the level of success Games Workshop has earned.

Infinity has a great rules System. Just give it a try. INFINITY is not 40k, is different, their fluff is solid and it has their own style, not lyrical biblical stuff. Infinity is not Gothic, is Sci-Fi. Miniatures are awesome, detailed, anatomically correct, well proportioned. Metal copies have great quality. Just don't judge a game for its popularity in a market completely monopolized by one giant.

They do this stuff.

[HellLois]

Im a regular reader of the forum, and today i decided to registrate and to take part of the discussions.
Because a think this thread are very interesting.

Im a player of 40K and i like it, but a few year ago i discover Infinity and i begin with fear to probe a new game, and now i only have to say tha the game system its amazing! And what better way to star playing than having FREE rules!.
The quality of the miniatures are spectacular, the details are insane, seriously, maybe it can sound like a "fanboy" but check the miniatures.
And with the finecast,being a regular player of Fantasy and 40k i feel disappointed and with the liquid stuff and the new tools to repair the bubbles some time i fell like if GW laugh at me UU

[wildger]

Well said. As I mentioned in the past, this is hardly any reason to get into 40K except for blind royalty and peer pressure. There are many games out there that have better rules, and sculpture with cheaper price than what GW can offer.

[Justicar_Freezer]

I think there are plenty of options out there for people looking to either get away from 40k or get into wargaming and not start with 40k.

At the moment Mantic has Warpath out which I haven't played but it dosen't look horrible. If you want small scale there are games like Infinty and Mercs. Dust Tactics is sort of a weird war sci-fi experience that is going to have a rulebook to turn it into a full blown wargame called Dust Warfare. If you want something like epic I can think of Dystopian Wars from spartan games with land, air, and sea battles. There is also Tomorrows War from Ambush Alley games which can be played in 6, 10, 15, 20, 28mm with any minis you want to use.

That's not to mention all the fantasy options people have these days. To me it seems that GW is a giant slowly suffering from 1000 stings as other companies spring up and offer other better alternatives to GW's game and products.

just my 2 cents.

[redben]

Just because 40K is fantasy in space (and unashamedly so, that was what it was intended to be) doesn't mean it isn't sci-fi. It may not be a flavour of sci-fi everyone likes but sci-fi it is.

If any game is to surpass 40K in popularity it won't take a better rules set (as people have mentioned, 40K isn't that great), or better minis (ditto if a bit better) but it'll need to challenge the brand loyalty the fanbase has to the IP. Enduring game systems, whether they be D&D, WoW, Vampire or 40K, endure because of brand loyalty and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more customers they retain through it, the more likely it is that players will stick with the system as they know it represents their best chance of getting a game in.

[shakespear]

Just because 40K is fantasy in space (and unashamedly so, that was what it was intended to be) doesn't mean it isn't sci-fi. It may not be a flavour of sci-fi everyone likes but sci-fi it is.

If any game is to surpass 40K in popularity it won't take a better rules set (as people have mentioned, 40K isn't that great), or better minis (ditto if a bit better) but it'll need to challenge the brand loyalty the fanbase has to the IP. Enduring game systems, whether they be D&D, WoW, Vampire or 40K, endure because of brand loyalty and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more customers they retain through it, the more likely it is that players will stick with the system as they know it represents their best chance of getting a game in.

Its not so much brand loyalty as it is "I've spent sooo much on 40k, I dont want to lose that money" GW knows this.

[Charistoph]

One other point is that warhammer (both in Fantasy and 40K) is rare in that they operate in large armies in Fantasy/Sci-Fi, whereas most others in those arenaa operate on more skirmish levels. One reason why WarmaHordes is gearing up so quickly is that the model investment is low compared to 40K (being an easy to learn rule system doesn't hurt,either) much less Fantasy. The concept of running such numbers of models in WarmaHordes or Infinity starts getting people's eyes to gloss over.

Just for gits and shiggles, I suggested running a WarmaHordes game at the same point levels as a smaller 40K game. The people I talked to were uncomfortable with even the concept of it. They told me of a 150 points game they ran, and had to stop on Turn 3 due running out of time. But the number of models involved at 150 points were less than what one would see in even an average 1500 point game in 40K, and much less than Fantasy usually puts out there games, too.

[MarcoSkoll]

I still haven't seen any female miniature from GW that can be compared to what Infinity, Soda Pop, Anima or other companies make.

Hmm. I will definitely agree that GW is usually pretty poor regarding their female miniatures, but I have to disagree with stating it as such an absolute.

I take it from your examples that you're very much more into anime based miniature ranges than I am, most of which have their own odd ideas about "style" that do not endear them to me. (Infinity is an exception, although there are exceptions to the exception).

While largely unsuccessful with female models, GW have got it right on rare occasion. Lelith Hesperax, for example, is a very good female miniature, hitting the notes of proportion, anatomy and facial femininity far more in tune than those manufacturers which try to carry the artistic exaggerations of manga into miniature form.
Corvus Belli aren't usually guilty of that particular crime, but that is not to say there aren't models in its range (frequently their earlier ones) which don't cut the mustard. To give an easy example, Uxia McNeill does not in anyway impress me. The anatomy has the kinds of mistakes I'd expect to see in a "my first sculpt" plog, as well as a generous helping of vague and misshapen detail.

All in all, yes, GW are not good at female models, but to say that they have never produced a single decent female miniature when your baselines for comparison include ranges with anatomical styles that are just as biologically inaccurate as GW's "heroic proportion" is pushing it a bit.

[Verm1s]

The "ask me anything with a former GW employee" hurt them a bit more than you think.

The whut?

http://www.reddit.com/comments/ppwzq...=controversial

The Codex: Furz. Otters. In space.

Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh ha ha hahahahaha!

There goes my evening.

Like any business...start with trying to design and sell a Dreamliner, and you flop on your face. Start with tiny widdle cessna, and you have a good chance.

A whut?

As more and more people try other games they slowly realize how bad a rule system it is. Its like being blind all your life and then suddenly able to see.

Interesting thread.
Imagine a small companie that, from one day to another, changes the basic production of their product a loses tons of quality. Will that company survive? NO. But GW can sell finecast and people buy it. I have only witnessed that level of control over the wargaming community in comic-books before.

And people will still buy it, because everyone that steps away from 40k has to walk alone through the valley of Small companies and unpopular games... maybe they are funny, maybe they have better miniatures, metal quality copies, prices, solid rules and a respectful attitude to their customers... but they are not 40k.

Where's the like button?

One other point is that warhammer (both in Fantasy and 40K) is rare in that they operate in large armies in Fantasy/Sci-Fi, whereas most others in those arenaa operate on more skirmish levels. One reason why WarmaHordes is gearing up so quickly is that the model investment is low compared to 40K...
Just for gits and shiggles, I suggested running a WarmaHordes game at the same point levels as a smaller 40K game. The people I talked to were uncomfortable with even the concept of it. They told me of a 150 points game they ran, and had to stop on Turn 3 due running out of time.

I think rules systems come into that alongside mini count. It's one of the small reasons I don't get over-excited about Warmahordes - too little flow and too much picking over cardfuls of individual special rules and combos. The game doesn't work so well for larger armies because it's designed to focus on a handful of characters.
That's not to jump to WH/40K's defence, though. Even in WAB I feel myself going nuts, because things get bogged down rolling for every guy and keeping track of the fancy weapons and abilities studded into the front rank. And if you get Daemonkin in here he could tell you a little story about playing a game of Epic within one turn of Apoc.

I take it from your examples that you're very much more into anime based miniature ranges than I am, most of which have their own odd ideas about "style" that do not endear them to me. (Infinity is an exception, although there are exceptions to the exception).

All in all, yes, GW are not good at female models, but to say that they have never produced a single decent female miniature when your baselines for comparison include ranges with anatomical styles that are just as biologically inaccurate as GW's "heroic proportion" is pushing it a bit.

I have to agree with that. The anime-styled minis generally have a better finish and greater fidelity to the source material than most of GW's, but it's what the source material is that gets me.

[shakespear]

The whut?

http://www.reddit.com/comments/ppwzq...=controversial

[shakespear]

And what's controversial with any of that (after I've just waded my way through it)? It's all stuff we already knew.

Well, in my local area, GW fanboys that had been lying to themselves for years, suddenly had nothing to say. I thought they were going to jump off a building.

Instead they quietly headed to bartertown and asked me about Warmachine

[BobbaFett]

To give an easy example, Uxia McNeill does not in anyway impress me. The anatomy has the kinds of mistakes I'd expect to see in a "my first sculpt" plog, as well as a generous helping of vague and misshapen detail.

All in all, yes, GW are not good at female models, but to say that they have never produced a single decent female miniature when your baselines for comparison include ranges with anatomical styles that are just as biologically inaccurate as GW's "heroic proportion" is pushing it a bit.

UxiaMcneill is a very Old Model. It is like if I mention the Catachan guys from 40K as an example of GW's human anatomy.
Being simple here... I can see many small companies, tiny companies making better female models than GW. It is not a matter of scale. When we are making beautiful women everything has to make sense. i think that GW is afraid of making sexualized women because they are selling their stuff to kinds and they do not want their toys to have sex.

Hell... even the Space Marines can't have sex. There is no sex at all in WH40K. After being bringing death to the enemy all day, at the end of the day, thay cannot relax and have a healthy life.
I can perfectly imagine the Infinity soldiers having a good **** in their free time after a mission.

Imagine some 40k spess mahreens badasses saving the day, rescuing some incredible sexy looking (in some concept art, not in miniature) human hostage and... they could not have sex at all with her at all. So disapointing.

[MarcoSkoll]

UxiaMcneill is a very old model.

"Very old" being relative, given that Infinity as a whole was only released in 2006. The bulk of GW's female models predate that, with the Battle Sister range being 1997 & 2004, the Escher being 1996, Witch Elves in 2001 and a lot of character/hero models from the 90s.

When you say compare to the Catachans, a lot of GW's females were before the modern Catachans and many of those are almost as old as the 2nd Edition metals.

Being simple here... I can see many small companies, tiny companies making better female models than GW.

I don't think this is a case that GW is afraid of sex (there's plenty of lovin' in the BL), but that sex wouldn't sell - GW's target audience are boys who still largely think that girls are icky. When said viewpoint changes, the new discovery usually displaces wargaming from their life, so there's not much point in marketing to them.

There's little doubt that GW could make some stunning female models. After all, they have Juan Diaz, Brian Nelson and Steve Buddle on their team (although I don't think any of SB's work has made it to the shelves yet), all of whom have done good work in that area. They don't, however, have that much reason to, as they're marketing to people whose loins couldn't care less.

[AndrewGPaul]

A lot of the Dark Elf range - including the Witch Elves, I think - were done by Chris Fitzpatrick. I was all excited that he'd move on to High Elves, then his work visa ran out and he went home, and what we got was a little disappointing. The rest of Chris' work on his own Wargods of Aegytpus line also has some nice female miniatures in it.

To be honest, there's not many female miniatures I like - they're mostly dodgy cheesecake, with the notable exception of Hasslefree (who mostly sculpts his wife). There's some decent female models in the Infinity range, but that's let down by having alledged soldiers with exposed midriffs, anorexic powered armour with high heels, boob jobs and g-strings and things like the Galwegian strippogram with grenade launcher.

[BobbaFett]

"anorexic powered armour with high heels".

completely unrealistic... unlike the 40k guy with the *********** huge book over his head, wich is a superb design. Come on!
I can understand that you defend what you love, but every time we get into details you are diggin your own grave.

-"Come on, buy space marines!! now they are grey, now they are blue, now they are green... now they have some tiny numbers in their shoulderpads... now they are... well.... the same design, the same siolouette that sells sells and sells overpriced boxes and blisters year after year after year! Keep praying for finding a tyrannid player or an imperial Guard player and not another guy with more marines."

-"Pray even more so GW doesn't decide to re-sculpt your armie and ban all your expensive miniatures from legal torunaments. Pray also for not finding a new player with the latest released army which will be more powerful than yours because it is new."

Other companies don't do that ****, other companies do not treat you like that. I'm not just talking about Infinity, other companies cannot afford to behave like this, cannot afford to release finecast and survive and people keep religiously defending GW like if I'm talking about their family or something...

[MarcoSkoll]

people keep religiously defending GW like if I'm talking about their family or something...

Now you're just being over the top. At what point did I defend GW on any of the following:
- Constant regurgitation of Space Marines
- Invalidation of old models
- Power creep
- Finecast problems
- Prices
- Company/customer relations?

I'm pretty sure I didn't. I've played Devil's advocate for some of these points in the past, but the truth is that these are amongst the things that stopped me buying from GW.

What I spoke out against was the statement that all GW's female models are inferior. Yes, most aren't very impressive, but your comparison lined them up against ranges that are a good decade newer (and have benefited from the associated developments in miniature making and style) and which are often anatomically incorrect in their own fashion!

As for AndrewGPaul's point, he's quite right. A lot of female miniatures are cheesecake and if taken too far, there are going to be a quite a few people who'll take it a lot less well than a guy holding a book over his head. One's potentially offensive, the other's just silly.