People always mention the GW stores in defending the company. They close more and more of those every year. Also, read any account of what its like to walk into one.
"Why hasn't anyone surpased GW?" They havent, yet... They dont even have the number 2 game anymore, fantasy has been pushed to 3. Its coming.
FASA was just as big, with novels, TV shows, movies, video games, you name it. Where are they now?
FASA was never that big. GW has over a hundred (last time I checked) hobby stores around the world and hundreds of miniatures. FASA was popular at one point in time, with several products, but they were also much more loose with the IP. They readily licensed their games for video and electronic games. GW refused to license any of their IP until more recently, with the exception of a handful of SSI games. In fact, they only started giving out the IP when their sales flopped and they needed the cash.Originally Posted by shakespear
Ultimately their downfall was selling the company to Microsoft, who cut all product lines except 2, then shut down the company and liquidated it.
Yes, GW stores suck, especially now. I just tried to go into one the other day to get some paint, only to find that they are only open from 2pm to 8pm now, with the store closed for 30 minutes for a lunch break. Really, you're only open 5.5 hours and force everyone out of the store to take a lunch break?
Fractured Mesh - my digital to 3d print blog.
Yeah but that cuts both ways, there where a lot of people unhappy with the Clans, with the death of smoke jaguar, and the Jihad. Dont get me wrong I love BT, and especially enjoyed the main fiction arc before it all went a bit south for awhile, but advancing the story is not always a good thing to all people.
Noise Marines
40K has become the microsoft of wargaming, mabey not the best system around but readily avaiable no matter where you are.
Which brings us to the real point, namely community. lets face it no matter how nice a series of models are or how well the rules are written there is really no point of collecting any of it save a shelf display if you have nobody to play it with.
I am fortunate to live in an area with a strong community of people who play other game systems including several like classic battletech and infinity which i have been involved in for a great deal of time.
On a second point-
40k is ok if you take it as a "beer and pretzels hanging out with the boys" kinda of fun social activity because otherwise the rules, or rather the piss poor ability to write cohesive and clear rules or simply even make up their mind about what the rules are(the new FAQs make them look downright bi-polar). if your a super competative player/rules debater the rules set is a playground for abuse and misconduct.Warhammer 40,000's rules, are at their core, very fun rules to play against others with.
Thats not even taking into account game balance issues brought on by the disconnect in the way they have no concensus or coordination when writing new codex's or internal balance that makes units unkillable to other units.
Taking my 2 alternate examples above both classic battletech and infinity, the crit systesm in each as well as the reality that anything on the table can kill anything else on the table goes a long way to making the systems far more strategic and fun to play. add that to the modified turn based systems both use(ARO for infinity, alternate movement and simultanious fire for classic battletech) and you don't feel like your units are bringing nothing to the game because they had the unfortunate luck of not going first.
In the end the only way for 40K to stop being the 400 pound gorilla in the room is for us the players to heavily promote other options to new and old players alike.
Last edited by mughi3; 02-04-2012 at 05:28.
I think the main issue with no one being able to compete with 40k is that 40k has 'already put towels on all the good sunbeds by the swimming pool'.
It already has a mixture of just about every sci-fi and fantasy race (and yes, I'm including Squats in there!) and covers almost every sci-fi/fantasy ideal across an entire galaxy, with plenty of room to expand.
Anyone now wanting to try and compete with it will find how hard it is to come up with an original and popular idea with out seeming like they ripped off 40k (or even WFB in fact)
Mantic, for instance, is about to release their space rodents. But nearly every post on here, and on the net, isnt praising how awesome an idea that is. They all say pretty much the same thing, skaven in space. Warpath, they aint forgefathers. They are clearly squats. Mantic released there non-chaos dwarf chaos-dwarves (abyss dwarves ??) and suddenly GW has everyone is buying real chaos dwarf chaos-dwarfs from Forgeworld.
Ok, Mantic have built there company on the back of GW, especially with their 'GW Miniature alternative' advertising. But I think it would hold for any company that's tries to build a huge sci-fi wargame. That all the 'good' ideas are taken, and its gonna take something pretty much new and original to pull people away from the huge comfortable choice that 40k already provides.
GW, unfortunately kind of have the hold over anything new by being like this. Want to make a game that is about space lizards v Humans, well, GW has already got the slann/old one mythos ready. Want to base your game in a daemon realm? GW has more then likely already got your daemon realm fully written up and described in one of there many books.
I'd love to see someone come along and replace 40k, especially with a proper tactical and correct sized sci-fi war game (sorry, but 40k is nothing more then a skirmish game more akin to necromunda or malifaux, just with a higher model count!) I'd love to see some new universe, with some new ideas, new wars to fight. Though Im yet to find one with the staying power against 40k.
There are and have been plenty of good, original sci-fi and fantasy games. I think the problem has never been so much that "GW did it first" but rather that other games tend to be off-beat, quirky, or have more of a niche appeal. GW has very broad appeal. Obviously that has a lot to do with their financial success, no argument here, but I just don't think there's much merit to the notion that all the good ideas are taken.
To name a few:
World of Twilight (very unconventional fantasy with no humans, dwarfs, elves, or orcs)
Quar (anthropomorphic anteaters with WWI tech)
Relics (automaton puppet soldiers fighting faeries and golem-like creatures, with a cyborg race in the works)
Anima Tactics (strong Final Fantasy vibe)
Wargods (heavily takes from Egyptian mythology with some Greek)
Strange Aeons (Lovecraft)
Shieldwall (same guys as the quar, a game I can only describe as muppet vikings)
Shadowsea (fantasyish setting which seems to be based on European explorers in the New World)
There are also two upcoming fantasy games I know of inspired by feudal Japan and Japanese folklore - Kensei and Bushido
I don't know a whole lot about the Iron Kingdoms setting, but I do think many of their creature designs, particularly for Hordes, are very innovative.
And some older, OOP games:
Void (primarily human factions at war, with one alien menace)
Vor (humans vs. enormous double-jointed jungle warriors vs. carnivorous space gorillas vs. crystalline entities vs. undead)
Celtos (based on Celtic mythology with some Norse mythology)
Clan Wars (fantasy based on feudal Japan)
There have also been a fair few giant robot/mech games, and while GW has Epic with titans they were never really the focus of 40Kverse gaming
EDIT: facepalm. I left two of the heavyweights off the list! Infinity and Malifaux are both pretty original (or at least not snagged directly from GW) too.
Last edited by Whitwort Stormbringer; 03-04-2012 at 03:27.
The great thing about the dwarves is that, even though there's this comic element, when they fight - they really fight!
Mind you, if you say it like that, then 40K is just as off-the-wall. We're all just jaded by twenty-five years of exposure.
Sci-fi has always been more fragmented than fantasy, at least in the eyes of the general public. "Fantasy" is basically Tolkienesque orcs, elves and dwarves ina European medieval setting. Sometimes you get a bit of Conan-style sandals & sorcery creeping in. With Sci-fi, the closest things you've got to a "default" look is Star Trek and Star Wars, which are both fairly different from each other. On the one hand, it makes it easier to do something unique, because there's not such a juggernaut taking up the mental space, but on the other, its harder to do anything "generic" to maximise sales.
Iron Kingdoms is basically "trad" fantasy moved from the middle ages to the industrial revolution. It's the same sort of playing with fantasy tropes and cliches that 40K did. Given the popularity of both, there must be something appealing in that.
Very true, 40k seems less offbeat since it's the big game but there is certainly some quirkiness to it and as you point out, sci-fi in general doesn't have as unified a feel as fantasy. The closest you get (in my mind) is of course Star Trek - big ships flying through space and funny humanoid aliens with lasers.
This is what I was driving at more than anything else. Not all good ideas have to play off of the same generic themes. Some of the games I listed are more unique or original in this regard than others, of course.
The great thing about the dwarves is that, even though there's this comic element, when they fight - they really fight!
The concept art is what makes 40K for me (I don't go near it anymore, but I still admire the work behind it).
40K has a *feel*, and I put that down to a certain consistancy in the design of the miniatures and art. I'd say its mainly down to the John Blanche =)
Generic hover tank X might look bloody cool, but it'll be a one-off and won't belong to a broader context. Its that distinct universe 40K has created that immerses you and enchants you into it. Try taking something out of the 40K universe and transplanting it into a generic universe; it'll be lame. The real magic of it is in your heart!!!
I just don't feel that enchantment with any of the newer games. Infinity is cool and very political and relevant, but there is no 'Bolter'. As for the legacy of Battletech, its awesome, but its far too subtle to appeal to my brutish sensibilities =)
Also there's the whole teenage nostalgia thing which just can't be destroyed! 40K is in ones very bones whether I like it or not o_0
Last edited by Shadowstone; 23-04-2012 at 21:44.
Interesting... I like the 40k world and the imagery, but I absolutely hate the ruleset.....
What, no Warzone?
Last edited by Codsticker; 30-04-2012 at 17:41. Reason: double post
What caused the death of Warzone? Was it purely a financial matter?
I found its universe compelling for a while, but ultimately found the factions a bit too similar to real life to enchant me. Another enduring aspect of 40K is how it is strongly inspired by various cultures in real life, but moulded in such a way as to make it work, and not *too* obvious.
The parent company went tits up, as I understand it. Nothing to do with the games, but they got dragged under. I-Kore - who went on to become Urban Mammoth - were formed by a couple of guys from the UK part of the company.
Oops, missed Warzone! I never really got involved in that game, although I should have remembered it since my brothers and I used to play Mutant Chronicles - Siege of the Citadel religiously as kids.
Warzone wasn't produced by i-Kore, was it? I know they did Void and Celtos, I thought Warzone predated them though. Same folks that made Warzone also had the fantasy game Chronopia, right?
As to what caused them to shut down, couldn't tell ya.
The great thing about the dwarves is that, even though there's this comic element, when they fight - they really fight!
Warzone and Chronopia came from Target. Like I said, I-Kore was founded by a couple of guys from Target. At some point, they'd also worked for Fantasy Forge and done Kryomek and Leviathan. Big resin models were a common theme in all those games.
You know, ever since last year whenever I see these sorts of threads I can't help but think that Games Workshop is very similar in some ways to the (in)famous Shakespeare character M******, from that particular play set in Scotland. Like M******, GW was once renowned by the public, but, seemingly blinded by ambition, now seems to be slowly descending into corruption and madness. Similarly, like M******, it seems GW cannot be brought down, no matter how unpopular they get (until the end of the story of course).
In regards to the original question, I think something that can compete with 40k success as sci-fi would be Battletech. It has a similar scale (in terms of the amount of background at least), a similar standing amongst the community, and even after the end of FASA it's still extremely popular and iconic.
In terms of the successes of various wargaming companies, I must say GW has a very powerful ace up it's sleeve in the form of the Citadel hobby range. Few other companies I've seen offer their own paint range, let alone other hobby supplies, which, combined with the various material GW puts out, I find to be a key factor in staying with 40k.
Consider, for example, the curious case of Dystopian Wars. Recently I have been deeply intrigued by this new wargame, but the main thing keeping me from getting into it, more than a lack of money to fund it, is that I have found nothing showing better ways of painting their models. Now, I understand that any self-respecting hobbyist will know just what to do to produce stunningly painted models (or at least good looking ones), indeed I could quite easily do so myself. But subtle little hints and tips and other recommendations, as well as step-by-step instructions on how to replicate the studio schemes they have, would be most welcome. If Spartan Games produced a 'how to paint Spartan miniatures' book, I would take up some of their games in a heartbeat. Even Total Warfare, the core Battletech rulebook, has a small section about painting and modelling in it.
Last edited by Kakapo42; 28-04-2012 at 04:46.
There... that's tidied up nicely.
Codsticker
The Warseer Mod Squad
This will always be the problem for new games:- Finding somewhere that sells the minis and people to play against.
GW is probably too entrenched in the UK for anyone to challenge 40k - there's a GW on every high street where you can buy the minis and play the game. Most independant shops have been killed off, or in poor shape.
I'm trying to get into Dust Tactics & Warfare but can't find any shop that sells the minis, and online sellers have a hard time getting the product in. I've then got to find people who want to play it.
I would imagine it would be easier for someone to knock 40k off the top in the USA ? More independant shops, less GW retail ?
Mind you, if you say it like that, then 40K is just as off-the-wall. We're all just jaded by twenty-five years of exposure.
Sci-fi has always been more fragmented than fantasy, at least in the eyes of the general public. "Fantasy" is basically Tolkienesque orcs, elves and dwarves ina European medieval setting. Sometimes you get a bit of Conan-style sandals & sorcery creeping in. With Sci-fi, the closest things you've got to a "default" look is Star Trek and Star Wars, which are both fairly different from each other. On the one hand, it makes it easier to do something unique, because there's not such a juggernaut taking up the mental space, but on the other, its harder to do anything "generic" to maximise sales.
Iron Kingdoms is basically "trad" fantasy moved from the middle ages to the industrial revolution. It's the same sort of playing with fantasy tropes and cliches that 40K did. Given the popularity of both, there must be something appealing in that.
I agree wholeheartedly.
originality isnt the problem, it is fairly easy to come up with unique and original things! it's that more original things tend to be more niche and unrelatable and lack the popularity the more common tropes are able to get. Theres rare exceptions however such as the Daleks from Dr Who.
I mean, with my game, Primeval Abyssian I can't see it appealing beyond a VERY small niche of people that want proper hardcore freaky aliens and enjoy lovecraftian stuff, afterall my setting is entirely extra-dimensional with nothing remotely human or humanoid (I even purposely wrote the physics to be impossible for humans to live in XD). I knew this when I started it.
Battletech has the potential, but I think a company that wants to truly compete with GW would need similar resources : plastic kits, their own hobby stores, a similar presence. None of the current games companies have all of those things - and I think all of them are fairly needed. GW's presence is huge, the retail shops are certainly a big part of it, even the average person the street knows what GW is.
Last edited by TimLeeson; 04-05-2012 at 13:26.
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