Ard Boyz Rumored Dead

[deadly_juice]

my experience in ard boyz last year was fantastic! first year i played in it and was looking forward to it again this year. every week i play against and/or with fluffy or non competitive armies. it was really nice to pull out those uber lists and see how far it goes.

also my experience, i have had less player issues at a waac tournament that at a full comp score tournament. then again, i live in canada where we apologize for damn near everything...

[x-esiv-4c]

If this is true, it's a good thing.
Then again, the information came from BoLS which openly poaches information from other sites without citing them as well as simply making things up.

[Kamenwati]

I find it a sad loss. It was nice to have a tournament where I could really open up with my lists and expect to be facing an opponent who did the same. Was it always a fair fight? No, but it was damned sure a fun one most of the time. I had a pretty positive experience the times I played but maybe i got lucky. The only game I can say I didn't enjoy was in the Finals of the Fantasy 'Ard Boyz when the points were 3500. And that was only because I got stacked against another Tomb Kings player who basically had the same list. The army moves very slowly and is magic dependent so... yeah. The player was fine though, just a bad draw for match up.

40k wise my 'Ard Boy matches were quite fun even when I got stomped. Though to be fair I local area I played in was always fairly competitive. Never cutthroat be definitely preferred playing our games with an eye towards pushing each others skill limits.

[ErictheGreen]

I would dearly love to think it was a move, by GW, away from WAAC play. Encouraging the tournament scene has always been a bad move in my opinion.

Explain why, with examples.

[d6juggernaut]

'ard boyz' 2500 point limit is pretty ridiculous and they have some pretty unbalanced battle missions, so I wouldn't consider it a very high level tournament (maybe in GW's mind it is) in the first place. If GW actually wants to support the competitive scene, they need to actually listen to the experienced players who have been playing competitively for a long time, who understand the meta game and the core strategy behind each army, and they need to get these players to play-test their codices. People discovered Psfleman dread within a week of the GK release, when you have people dedicated to exhausting every combination in the book, it's easy to find exploitable units and tactics.

If GW actually cares for the competitive scene they would take better care of their rules and codices and frequently update them with FAQs, but in the end they are a miniature company, they sell toy soldiers with rules attached that help them sell more toy soldiers, throwing 'ard boyz around changes nothing.

[Rated_lexxx]

That didn't happen.

I said more balance, not totally balanced

[Nurgling Chieftain]

I said more balance, not totally balanced

And I'm saying things are getting less and less balanced. Nothing post 2nd edition, not Kraftworld nor 3.5 Chaos, has come even close to some of the craziness in the Grey Knight codex, even compared to thier respective contemporaries.

[razormasticator]

I still insist this isnt a good thing. Tournaments should not just be reserved for people who have fully painted armies. I am sorry. But I do not agree with this notion. There are alot of people out there
who love this game, support it with their $$$ and do not have the time, talent or skill to paint their army properly.
What is the difference between a grey plastic army and or a hastily primed army entering a tourny with paint scores? Really.
Maybe if some tourny's had options for non painted armies. Who knows.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Thing is, this doesn't work for any tournament or indeed any competition. I used to hold a similar view - that there was a line over which excessive min-maxing should be considered bad or cheesy. I still held it when I started attending tournaments. But it's really just silly.

I mean, compare it with whatever competitive hobby or sport you like. People take them seriously and sometimes dedicate their lives to competing. There's no "don't try too hard, that's being a jerk" stigma to winning in sport is there?

The concept of cheese itself is an odd one. It's been around from the beginning and sometimes even propagated by the designers themselves but really it just means someone optimising their force. There are some more WAAC elements that sometimes get associated with competitive play - typically bending the rules or outright cheating but these really are not part or parcel of bringing a competitive player. You can be a good sport and a nice person to play with even if you do have Kairos in your army. Some people really do seem to think that putting certain models on the table can make you a jerk.

Ultimately, if you have a competition, you're going to get powergamers. I'm a powergamer. I will bring the list most capable of winning with. I'm not going to give my opponent the slightest edge. Now, that's not to say, my list will necessarily be at the maximum level my army book can bring. Many tournaments ban certain units or cap them. Others provide a comp score, in which case I'll have to consider a compromise between tabletop killing power and the comp score to get a best possible overall score. If there's a painting score I'll make sure my army is the best painted I can manage and indeed I'll do my best to win best painted too.

The key point is that Ard Boyz doesn't change anything in terms of my competitiveness. It just is that it all gets focussed into using the best list right out of the book and playing well. I don't see why that would make me more or less competitive. Comp exists to make the games more enjoyable but not less competitive.

[Fithos]

I still insist this isnt a good thing. Tournaments should not just be reserved for people who have fully painted armies. I am sorry. But I do not agree with this notion. There are alot of people out there
who love this game, support it with their $$$ and do not have the time, talent or skill to paint their army properly.
What is the difference between a grey plastic army and or a hastily primed army entering a tourny with paint scores? Really.
Maybe if some tourny's had options for non painted armies. Who knows.

I agree with this completely. Me and many of my friends who play the game can't paint worth crap. I am pretty good at modeling, but that won't get you in a tournament. I play the game for the sake of playing a game. It was nice to know that there was a tournament out there that I could enter and have an even chance of winning. I respect people who are really into the hobby as a whole and are good at painting models, but I am not, and I don't see why there shouldn't be tournaments for people like me who just want to play the game.

On a side note, usually whenever I have seen soft scores they have not helped at all because the WAAC players have just gotten their models professionally painted in anticipation, so not only am I being restricted from playing the event from a not well/fully painted army, but someone who put less effort into it than me is winning. That hardly seems worthwhile.

I wish that instead of trying to get away from the competitiveness of the game they wold have embraced it and made good, balanced rules.

[t-tauri]

Moved to tournaments. 40k and Fantasy versions of the same thread merged.

[AndrewGPaul]

Does it matter? the 40K tournament scene has been mostly independent of GW for years now. I'm sure if there's enough demand for a "hardcore gamers" tournament, someone will run one.

[Lord Inquisitor]

Well, Ard Boyz had some interesting elements that are unlikely to be duplicated. It was across the whole of north America. North America is pretty damn big by European standards. Theres a lot of cool tournaments but most are too far away. Ard Boyz was great because it was everywhere. It was also free with decent prize support. That's a pretty good equation there to prompt players who might be on the fence out to play. With nine rounds of play its a great competition in terms of breadth. It was advertised by GW and organized to be simultaneous giving a sense of companionship to Ard Boyzers across the country.

[Rated_lexxx]

And I'm saying things are getting less and less balanced. Nothing post 2nd edition, not Kraftworld nor 3.5 Chaos, has come even close to some of the craziness in the Grey Knight codex, even compared to thier respective contemporaries.

I acutally found 2nd to be the most unbalanced of the editions.

But I hate how GW is trying to make the game only gear towards the causal crowd and not both. I would think if they tried to make it balance and/or more clear rules that the competitive crowd needs it would also help the casual players with those iffy rules that always cause fights

[ErictheGreen]

This would really be a shame if ard' boys is indeed gone. I've played in two, and they've never been that bad in regards to the power level. Really I tended to see the wacky (not WAACY) one off, odd idea armies that are a challenge to play against. Every blow to tourney support is a blow to our hobby rather you like the idea behind the specific tourney or not.

Haven't read the rest of the thread. But this. this is the right response.

A well run tournament fosters a gaming community which, in turn, produces a higher turnout at GWs and FLGS, which produces more revenue in terms of new models.

I have lost count of the amount of times i've found inspiration at a tournament - from a "gimmick" list, to a tournament winner, to an outstandingly converted army.


Tournaments tend to bring people that build, paint and play in their basements with small groups together, creating links for better gaming everywhere.

Love or hate the mentality that seemed to pervade over Ard Boyz', losing it loses that aspect of the hobby.

[razormasticator]

Well, Ard Boyz had some interesting elements that are unlikely to be duplicated. It was across the whole of north America. North America is pretty damn big by European standards. Theres a lot of cool tournaments but most are too far away. Ard Boyz was great because it was everywhere. It was also free with decent prize support. That's a pretty good equation there to prompt players who might be on the fence out to play. With nine rounds of play its a great competition in terms of breadth. It was advertised by GW and organized to be simultaneous giving a sense of companionship to Ard Boyzers across the country.

Agree 100% on this as well. The nearest GT or viable tourney for me is 2+ hours away. And those are all painting dependant tournaments.

[dwarfhold13]

did no one read my post? or was it that insignificant?

[Lord Inquisitor]

did no one read my post? or was it that insignificant?

I read it and my post above (#89) was in part a reply to yours. Does that make you feel better or do you need me to quote your post?

[LordZombie]

Friend of mine got this in an email. Figure I would post it up there for your guys to enjoy.

The North American Games Workshop Business Support team along with our
management team has spent an extensive amount of time reviewing the current
tournament circuit and the best way to offer support to hobbyists interested in
hosting events of their own.

As you are undoubtedly aware, there is a Games Workshop tournament circuit in
which tournaments must apply and those chosen are offered support. After serious
consideration, we will continue with the current 2012 circuit ending in May 2012
and host the culminating Throne of Skulls tournament this October. Going
forward, in order to be more supportive of events of all types, especially those
in our retail and trade outlet stores, we will discontinue the GW tournament
circuit.

We would like to thank all the organiser's from the 2012 Circuit and we wish
everyone the most success with their events in the future.

Regards,

Desiree Dorsey
Director of Business Support
Games Workshop

[razormasticator]

Friend of mine got this in an email. Figure I would post it up there for your guys to enjoy.

The North American Games Workshop Business Support team along with our
management team has spent an extensive amount of time reviewing the current
tournament circuit and the best way to offer support to hobbyists interested in
hosting events of their own.

As you are undoubtedly aware, there is a Games Workshop tournament circuit in
which tournaments must apply and those chosen are offered support. After serious
consideration, we will continue with the current 2012 circuit ending in May 2012
and host the culminating Throne of Skulls tournament this October. Going
forward, in order to be more supportive of events of all types, especially those
in our retail and trade outlet stores, we will discontinue the GW tournament
circuit.

We would like to thank all the organiser's from the 2012 Circuit and we wish
everyone the most success with their events in the future.

Regards,

Desiree Dorsey
Director of Business Support
Games Workshop

It sucks out loud.