1. Re: Charge mechanics

Bu it says to use the wheel to maximize, not wheel THEN maximize.

I have some sympathy for your point of view since it is badly worded but I think letter and intent are clear.

2. Re: Charge mechanics

It also says " Of course what would happen in a real battle is that the warriors of the two units would quickly move to attack their enemies, and in doing so would close the gap."
This is why I think maximizing means slide across. I mean, the guy next to you is getting attacked, so I'll just stand here and wait? I don't think so. They even have a fluff justification for it.

3. Re: Charge mechanics

Firstly: Fluff does not always equal Rules.

Secondly: Your quote is taken out of context. Your quote is the first paragraph from under Aligning to the enemy on page 20 in the BRB.
The complete quote is:

"On most occasions, moving the chargers in the manner described above will leave the charging unit and the target unit in base contact at a peculiar angle with an odd gap in between, which looks fairly strange. Of course, what would happen in a real battle is that the warriors of the two units would quickly move to attack their enemies and, in so doing, close the gap - so this is exactly what we do in Warhammer.

Once the charging unit contacts the enemy unit it must perform a 2nd bonus wheel if required to bring it's front facing in to flush facing with the enemy unit that has been charged, maximizing the number of models in base contact on both sides. we refer to this as closing the door."

The first paragraph is merely flavor text that explain why the actual rule in the second paragraph is used. Closing the gap has got nothing to do with any form of sliding, it is merely a second free wheel intended to make the two combatants align flush against each other. The real maximization is done during the charge move (before making contact). If they would have meant that the models would slide, they would have said so in the rules, and probably included a nice little diagram as well to accompany the diagram on page 20 that perfectly explain how "closing the door" actually works.

4. Re: Charge mechanics

I understand your point too, But We will just have to agree to disagree, It says to maximize after you make it flush.
To me the wording is simple.

5. Re: Charge mechanics

Originally Posted by Dirty Mac
I understand your point too, But We will just have to agree to disagree, It says to maximize after you make it flush.
To me the wording is simple.
No disrespect, but is your opinion shared with your local gaming group? Or your local GW? Have you ever been called on it in a tournament?

Im just curious to see how many people in your area play it that way, i had someone try it against me in a tourny and i had to get the TO to explain it before he relented.

6. Re: Charge mechanics

Originally Posted by MOMUS
No disrespect, but is your opinion shared with your local gaming group? Or your local GW? Have you ever been called on it in a tournament?

Im just curious to see how many people in your area play it that way, i had someone try it against me in a tourny and i had to get the TO to explain it before he relented.
None taken, It only came up once, My opponent called ********, I showed him the rule in the book, and he accepted the way I played it. He then played it later on in the next game actually.

7. Re: Charge mechanics

I'll try and explain this one. Go to page 20:

Note the picture.
The first thing to do is wheel in such a way that you maximise the number of models that will be in contact once the charge is completed. (2)
"You are free to make this wheel in order to place your unit wherever you like against the facing of the enemy unit that is being charged, but remember you must bring as many models into base contact with the enemy as possible, from both sides. Therefore this wheel cannot be used to reduce the number of models in base contact, unless you have no choice and you need to wheel for the unit to avoid intervening units and impassable terrain.".

Let's say, for example, you have a unit with a frontage of 5 and you're charging a unit with a frontage of 10. You have to wheel in such a way that when contact is made, both sides have the maximum number of models in the combat. You couldn't charge your unit so the edges line up, as that wouldn't maximise the frontage of 10 that's being charged. Ideally, the charge would end with your five models in base contact with 7 enemy models (the two corners). Note the last sentence of the quote, I'll come back to that.

So your units then move in (3) and close the door (4).
"On most occasions moving the chargers in the manner described will leave the charging unit and the target unit in base contact at a peculiar angle. In a real battle the warriors of the two units would quickly move to attack their enemies and, in so doing, close the gap. Once the charging unit contacts the enemy it must perform a second bonus wheel to bring its front facing into flush contact with the facing of the enemy unit, maximising the number of models in base contact on both sides. We refer to this as closing the door.".

Again, it talks of maximising the numer of models in base contact on both sides through the use of a wheel. The charging unit hits at a 45 degree angle so makes a wheel to bring the models into base contact. If the charge was performed correctly then this will happen naturally, however there are times when this isn't possible. Let's say that at the corner of the unit you were charging there was a piece of impassable terrain. The charging unit wouldn't be able to complete a charge against those last 3 or 4 models due to that terrain, so would have to change the charge so less models would be in contact. The charge would still try and maximise the models on both sides, as usual, but it will still put the units at odds to each other. There's an image of this on page 22.

Image 3 and 4 show the maximising of models. Instead of charging so the edge Wolf Rider comes into contact with the edge of the charged unit (5 vs 5), it stays out so the next model along is in contact, which maximises the models connecting (7 vs 5). The charged unit in this case has to perform the wheel to close the door, as the intervening terrain stops the Wolf Riders from doing it.

Finally, look at the image on page 23, where multiple units declare a charge against a single target. Note the shadowed images in picture 2 of how the units have wheeled, moved, then wheeled again to close the door. Again it states that the primary goal is to maximise the number of models fighting, but this is done through wheels, not sliding.

8. Re: Charge mechanics

What happens when you clip a unit then? one guys fights? or in my hydra example, I receive one or two attacks , and then I attack the unit with 13 attacks? doesn't seem logical they the enemy would just stand there.

9. Re: Charge mechanics

Originally Posted by Dirty Mac
What happens when you clip a unit then? one guys fights? or in my hydra example, I receive one or two attacks , and then I attack the unit with 13 attacks? doesn't seem logical they the enemy would just stand there.
If there is absolutely no way you can position yourself through a charge to get more models into combat then, yes, less models fight than normal, though this is a very rare occurence. If there's nothing blocking the charge path then you're going to get everyone into combat regardless. However, should it come down to where only one model is only able to fight back, after the round of combat both sides are able to make a Combat Reform (pg. 55) which will get more models into the fight for the next round of combat.

What you have to remember is the charge has an unlimited amount of movement, with a single 90 degree wheel in there somewhere, so no matter how far you have to travel you must still try your best to get the two units into base contact with the most amount of models able to fight. The chance that the Hydra will clip the side of the unit in a charge is so rare most of the time it's not even worth worrying about. The 'close the door' wheel is free, so you could hit the target unit at almost 90 degrees and still be able to maximise models through that final wheel.

10. Re: Charge mechanics

Yes, the two units clip. Note that it's pretty hard to clip with unlimited charge move, and even if a clip happens it only lasts one round as both sides can "slide" as a combat reform.

As for your earlier post, once again you say wheel THEN maximise, but that's not what it says. It says maximise with the wheel.

11. Re: Charge mechanics

Originally Posted by Lyynark
The first paragraph is merely flavor text that explain why the actual rule in the second paragraph is used. Closing the gap has got nothing to do with any form of sliding, it is merely a second free wheel intended to make the two combatants align flush against each other. The real maximization is done during the charge move (before making contact). If they would have meant that the models would slide, they would have said so in the rules, and probably included a nice little diagram as well to accompany the diagram on page 20 that perfectly explain how "closing the door" actually works.
I would have liked to post the same as above, but it's already been eloquently posted. The first paragraph on its own doesn't make much sense.

• What sort of gap are they going to close, and how? The models in the front rank that are not in base contact with the enemy do indeed have a gap between them and the closest enemy, but having the model "move to close the gap" would mean it would leave the front rank and move into contact with the enemy's flank. I don't have to tell you that this would be really weird to play out.
• Why should you move (slide) the models that are already in close combat? They don't have a gap between them and the enemy and thus have no reason to move!
• Any models in the rear rank of a sliding unit aren't moved to get into close combat, they just slide to keep up with the rest of the unit. I can't see how they are allowed to do that.
• How far should you move (slide) the unit? There are no restrictions, so are you only allowed to slide the minimum distance? Surely it seems neater to position the units center-against-center. Or maybe since nothing is specified you can slide the unit any distance you like (many units can have a very wide frontage these days), but then who gets to decide how you perform the slide?
• What if you have charged an enemy that is already involved in combat? Do you slide all units involved in the combat (there could be quite a few!) to accommodate the newcomer?

-T10

12. Re: Charge mechanics

Well to be fair it's only happened once to me, where we actually clipped and had most of the unit hanging off the edge. and we squared up.
Usually the charges are just regular charges.

13. Re: Charge mechanics

As you say, usually the charges are just regular charges. But sometimes (as has been pointed out) the charge might be a bit "awkward" due to movement restriction. And then you can end up with units "clipping" each other. But there is no "sliding" to resolve this. All realigns are made as combat reforms at the end of the combat (assuming the units are still engaged).

14. Re: Charge mechanics

@dirtymac.
Dude, if you close the door to maximise and you have frontage of 15 vs frontage of 3 out of 10, after you have closed the door....... I'm sorry to say but you only have 3 out of 15 to vs 3 out of 10, don't despair, there are supporting attacks.
Sliding is done after combat is over, casualties counted, and run downs complete.

Lord inquisitor has it in a bag.

15. Re: Charge mechanics

Originally Posted by Dirty Mac
None taken, It only came up once, My opponent called ********, I showed him the rule in the book, and he accepted the way I played it. He then played it later on in the next game actually.
Originally Posted by Dirty Mac
Well to be fair it's only happened once to me, where we actually clipped and had most of the unit hanging off the edge. and we squared up.
Usually the charges are just regular charges.
So when you tell your opponent "this is how I play it" what you really mean is "I've not actually experienced this sort of situation before, but from what I've read in the rules I believe it should be resolved in this manner"?

-T10

16. Re: Charge mechanics

Originally Posted by T10
So when you tell your opponent "this is how I play it" what you really mean is "I've not actually experienced this sort of situation before, but from what I've read in the rules I believe it should be resolved in this manner"?

-T10
Yeah pretty much. because I had to read the rules about it when it happened as I had never seen it before , he said are you sure that's right? I gave him the book and He then read the same rule I read and decided that I was correct. so we played it that way.

18. Re: Charge mechanics

Everything in that pic is correct. You would charge exactly how you described.

19. Re: Charge mechanics

Originally Posted by lexieflexie

Assuming the majority of the ghoul's first rank are not in the knights front arc then it would be legal as a flank charge.

I have to ask though, why aren't the wraiths in formation? Or is that 3 characters just moving about?

20. Re: Charge mechanics

Originally Posted by lexieflexie