Non-standard equipment on tactical marines?

[Bagge]

Are there any precedence in the fluff for Space Marine Tactical Squads with non-standard equipment (ie. not boltguns)? Specifically, I'm wondering of Tactical Squads are ever equipped with boltpistols and chainswords if the situation dictates it?

The reason I ask is because I'm currently painting up an Assault Marine heavy Blood Angels army, and would prefer to keep the army within the same company so they can all have the same colour droplet on their right shoulder pad . I'm using a combination of jump pack equipped Assault Marines and Rhino/Razorback-mounted Assault Marines, and I figure I could paint the ones without jump packs with red helmets and mark them as Tactical Marines (but of course using the rules and point costs for Assault Marines), I could include more than 20 Assault Marines in an army, and still have the same company badge on all the models.

[Vaulkhar]

The other option would be to use 8th Company, since that consists of 10 Assault Squads iirc. You'd have a problem with Devastators and Tactical squads, of course, but that's what tanks, Termies and scouts are for...

However...it's not totally unreasonable. Tactical Marines are expected to be able to use pretty much all of the standard gear in the armoury (if not quite as well as the specialists) and bolt pistols and chainswords are as standard as Marine gear comes. If the situation demanded CC wallop then I can imagine it happening.

[Lord Damocles]

I could have sworn that the current codex had a note somewhere about Blood Angels keeping hold of their assault gear after graduating from Assault Squads, but I can't find it anywhere


Tactical Squad Tarkus from Dawn of War II can swap out their Bolters for pistols and Chainswords, so it's not totally unheard of.

[Xisor]

If the gear's available, I see no reason not to.

Look at the progression given in C:SM 5th, you start at Scouts, you go to Devastator then Assault then finally Tactical. But once you are a tactical marine, there's nothing (except equipment & whether the situation needs it) to stop your captain from saying "Tactical Squads, grab assault packs and chainswords from the armoury!".

Indeed, this makes a lot of sense. Provided that the chapter has the equipment for it, it should be almost certainly feasible.

However, the question is whether reverse actually works. We know, on the tabletop, that Devastator squads are 'just like Tacticals' but with extra heavy weapons. That is: could the Assault or Devastator companies be deployed as Tactical marines? (Would they be any use as tactical marines? - they can't claim objectives game-wise.)

To my mind, this really requires a look at how you actually progress through the chapter. My thinking on the matter is as follows:

You start as a Scout.
You graduate into the Ninth Company and become a Devastator, typically fielded to augment other companies.
You graduate from the Ninth into the Eighth Company and do your Assault Training, typically in support of other companies or as composite forces.
You graduate from the Eighth into the Seventh or Sixth Companies and do your Tactical training/tour as a tactical Marine.

Once you've been in the Seventh or the Sixth, you're 'good to go' and can basically do any job you need to: you can be deployed as a Tactical Marine, you can be given a chainsword, handed a lascannon or instructed to don your Scout Carapace and acquire a sniper rifle - either way you know where you are and you can actually do the damn job.

Once you're out of the Seventh or Sixth, you (probably) go to a battle company - you get a more 'regular' job, e.g. one suited to what you're actually good at. So if you're very swordsman-y, you might end up an Assault Marine. Or if you're a good biker, it's not unthinkable your 'Assault Squad' would often be deployed as bikers.

But contrast this with 'small deployments'. For example, a Rapid Strike vessel with, at best, a Thunderhawk or two and a decent sized armoury aboard. Imagine your 'force' consists of thirty marines drawn from across the Chapter - one Tactical squad from 2nd Company, one Tactical Squad from 6th Company and one assault squad from Eighth company.

In terms of what you can actually deploy your force as: both tactical squads can be deployed as anything they damn well want (except Terminators, obviously). They can ride out on bikes, they can strap on some jump packs, they could all be deployed as Devastators. The Eighth Company Assault Squad, however, is much more limited: they only have the option of being Assault Squads or Devastators (or Scouts), or, if they've trained sufficiently far enough, being deployed as bike/Land Speeder formations.

That said, you could also break it down thus:
2nd C Tactical: Deployed as 5 man Devastator and 5 man Scouts.
6th C Tactical: Deployed as a full Tactical Squad
8th C Assault: Deployed as a 5 man assault squad and 3 bikes + attack bike.

Alternatively, they could be an outright two tactical squads and an assault squad. Theoretically, they could all deploy as thirty Devastators or, indeed, thirty scouts.

Obviously the tabletop rules put something of a damper on that line of thinking as it's not strictly feasible rules-wise, but in the background I see absolutely no reason it shouldn't be possibly to operate along these lines.

---

What's More!

In Assault on Black Reach the 'Tacticals deploy as Scouts' thing does indeed happen: Scipio's squad is instructed to strip out of Power Armour and don their carapace to assist Sergeant Telion. In game, obviously the Scouts are a bit rubbish (the rules for Scouts surely model 10th Company Scouts, not 'full marines' playing at being Scouts!), but in background terms I'm really rather happy with this possibility.

Any glaring errors in my thinking? I'd hate to miss something really obvious...!

[Grit]

In the novel Nightbringer,when they are attacking the Dark Eldar ship the Tactical Squads were given chainswords on there way in to the ship.
So I would say there is presidnet to give them when the needs dictate.

[Lothlanathorian]

I can't find it, but, I swear there was something in the Blood Angels codex that said that all Tactical Squads were also capable of loading out as Assault Marines if need be. The Assault Squad entry says that Assault Squads tend to always be full strength as there is never a shortage of Marines with the training and the desire to be in them, but, I can't find the bit about any squad being able to load out as an Assault Squad (note, I am looking in the bestiary section, not the army list section, as this is a conversation about fluff, not rules).

[Grit]

I can't find it, but, I swear there was something in the Blood Angels codex that said that all Tactical Squads were also capable of loading out as Assault Marines if need be. The Assault Squad entry says that Assault Squads tend to always be full strength as there is never a shortage of Marines with the training and the desire to be in them, but, I can't find the bit about any squad being able to load out as an Assault Squad (note, I am looking in the bestiary section, not the army list section, as this is a conversation about fluff, not rules).

Well all Tactical Squads are trained as a Assault Marine before they become a Tactical Squad member,so it seem reasonable that they would be equiped with CCW as the needs dictates and Assault Marrines are not available

[twistedmarine]

Am I the only one who thinks being a tactical marine last in their training is retarded? I think it makes sense to start ss a scout, then move to tactical squads. Then, while in these squads the ones who perform best with hvy weapons move on to heavy weapons squads, the one that fight hand to hand best move on to assault squads etc. Anyone else feel that way?

[blurrymadness]

Am I the only one who thinks being a tactical marine last in their training is retarded? I think it makes sense to start ss a scout, then move to tactical squads. Then, while in these squads the ones who perform best with hvy weapons move on to heavy weapons squads, the one that fight hand to hand best move on to assault squads etc. Anyone else feel that way?

Meh, the problem is that means you'd rotate one special and one heavy around the squad for quadrillion battles/drills and see who's. It seems backwards at first, but it would make sense that devestators who perform the best would likely be the heavy weapons dude in the tac squad, that those who'd performed well in scouts or assaults squads with special weapons would additionally be the ones in said tac squad to hold the treasured weapon.

It also makes sense that Tacs are (fluff wise) the backbone; assaults, devs, and scouts are what support *them.* Gamewise it's sort of the opposite; tacs plug holes; but fluff wise they're the bestesors n junk n go beat everything while their younger brethren pick off problem targets tacs can't handle.

[Lothlanathorian]

Well all Tactical Squads are trained as a Assault Marine before they become a Tactical Squad member,so it seem reasonable that they would be equiped with CCW as the needs dictates and Assault Marrines are not available

Yeah, but, I just could have sworn there was a specific mention of them kitting out with Assault gear at times. It's not a big leap in logic to make, but, just, thought it was stated as a fact that it actually happened.


Also, I agree with blurrmadness. From a fluff perspective, it makes perfect sense to have them rolled into Tactical Squads last. Tactical Squads aren't generalists, they're good at everything and are stuck in a squad that is capable of handling any situation it comes across and every member of that squad is proficient with every piece of wargear they have.

[Orthodox]

Yeah, but, I just could have sworn there was a specific mention of them kitting out with Assault gear at times. It's not a big leap in logic to make, but, just, thought it was stated as a fact that it actually happened.


Also, I agree with blurrmadness. From a fluff perspective, it makes perfect sense to have them rolled into Tactical Squads last. Tactical Squads aren't generalists, they're good at everything and are stuck in a squad that is capable of handling any situation it comes across and every member of that squad is proficient with every piece of wargear they have.

It's probably something to do with experience, too. Fire support squads would try not to put themselves right in front of the enemy and wouldn't stand on anything important, so they can concentrate on shooting tough targets without having to defend themselves. Devastator squads have a simpler job than the others do. The three types of assault squad are all cavalry style units that hang back and only attack when they the opportunity presents itself. They are in the thickest fighting, because they are space marines, but they have the luxury of choosing to fight when they are ready.

Tactical squads have to actually occupy objectives and are always being shot at. They need to be the best because they jam themselves right up against the enemy and their job is mostly to be shot at while staying alive.

Their TT role is accurate. They grit it out at short range so that the rest of the army has time to show up and finish the job. With no real offenaive specialism, tactical squads use the basic marines' t4 3+ to specialise in being shot.


[QUOTE=Xisor;6146550]If the gear's available, I see no reason not to.

Look at the progression given in C:SM 5th, you start at Scouts, you go to Devastator then Assault then finally Tactical. But once you are a tactical marine, there's nothing (except equipment

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Am I the only one who thinks being a tactical marine last in their training is retarded? I think it makes sense to start ss a scout, then move to tactical squads. Then, while in these squads the ones who perform best with hvy weapons move on to heavy weapons squads, the one that fight hand to hand best move on to assault squads etc. Anyone else feel that way?

No, your not. That would seem to be the only reasonable way of doing it, and would seem to give you much better results. In fact I think it would make even more sense if you turned the progression entirely on it's head and Tactical Squads was the first stop on the way period, and then marines could specialise into things like heavy weaponry, close quarter fighting, recon, etc. That would make much more sense to me, but that's 40k for you.


In answer to the question. If you want to you could probably justify just about anything for marines. There are so few of them anyway that they could easily have enough equipment to equip every single marine in the chapter with X, Y or Z weapon.

[Grit]

Am I the only one who thinks being a tactical marine last in their training is retarded? I think it makes sense to start ss a scout, then move to tactical squads. Then, while in these squads the ones who perform best with hvy weapons move on to heavy weapons squads, the one that fight hand to hand best move on to assault squads etc. Anyone else feel that way?

I don't think so,as every Marine is not capable of being a tactical squad memeber. They train as devastators first so they can all use the heavy weapon that is in the squad,then as assault marines so they are able to fufill there multi role use as shooters,and go into CCW when needed.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

I don't think so,as every Marine is not capable of being a tactical squad memeber.

Tactical marines are the most basic function, that of a rifle man. They use the basic weapon of a Space Marine, the bolt gun. Of course they are all capable of being a tactical marine. That's where everything starts. You then build on that foundation to learn specialist stuff, like heavy weapons operation and effective close quarter techniques. Starting with the specialist stuff and finishing with the generalist training is just backwards.

[Iron_Lord]

Tactical marines are the most basic function, that of a rifle man. They use the basic weapon of a Space Marine, the bolt gun. Of course they are all capable of being a tactical marine. That's where everything starts. You then build on that foundation to learn specialist stuff, like heavy weapons operation and effective close quarter techniques. Starting with the specialist stuff and finishing with the generalist training is just backwards.

I think the author's idea was "it's easy to operate a heavy weapon- it's easy to be a shock trooper- but the extreme tactical flexibility of the tactical marine's role is much harder"

[Grit]

Tactical marines are the most basic function, that of a rifle man. They use the basic weapon of a Space Marine, the bolt gun. Of course they are all capable of being a tactical marine. That's where everything starts. You then build on that foundation to learn specialist stuff, like heavy weapons operation and effective close quarter techniques. Starting with the specialist stuff and finishing with the generalist training is just backwards.

In the codex it says that not every marine is capable of adapting to the role of a Tactical Marine. When they become a full Astartes they start in the Devastator Squads,then Assault Marines then to Tactical Squads.Ones who can't adapt to the role become waht they are better at,Devastator or Assault.

[Xisor]

Tactical marines are the most basic function, that of a rifle man. They use the basic weapon of a Space Marine, the bolt gun. Of course they are all capable of being a tactical marine. That's where everything starts. You then build on that foundation to learn specialist stuff, like heavy weapons operation and effective close quarter techniques. Starting with the specialist stuff and finishing with the generalist training is just backwards.

And not acknowledging that they've already 'learned' the basics (Bolt Weapons, CC/Pistols, Heavy Weapons [Missile, Sniper, HB]) as Scouts is similarly backwards.

[jareddm3]

And not acknowledging that they've already 'learned' the basics (Bolt Weapons, CC/Pistols, Heavy Weapons [Missile, Sniper, HB]) as Scouts is similarly backwards.

I feel the core of the two sides of this debate is in how people believe the 8th and 9th companies are utilized. If a battle company finds itself against a massive enemy warmachine, do they "Bring In The Experts" and call for a 9th company detachment? Or do they shout "Cover Me!" and have the battle company move up to engage while the 9th company detachment is simply providing support fire? The former implies that the 8th and 9th company are the best at their craft and only brought on when needed, whereas the latter implies their only used as back-up and so used to train recruits.

[shadowhawk2008]

Boarding assault missions require very special weapons and equipment.

[Harwammer]

You could model your 'assault' tactical marines with their bolt pistols and combat knives out. Say they had to ditch their bolters and get stuck in?

I'd just attach assault squads from the reserve companies... Say your company is training these guys up?