withering and beast banner

[ArtificerArmour]

Here's an interesting one that came up in my game the other day.

My big beastie unit with beast banner got withering'd, reducing their strength by 3.

Now, a Gor is base St 3. The beast banner "grants the bearer and his unit +1 strength".

Does the beast banner give the unit a constant upgrade of strength 4? or does it add the their current strength at the time of use?

As they were in combat with T3 bloodletters, it was significant as they were striking at either strength 1 or strength 2, meaning6s or 5s.

Both FAQs were useless in helping us work it out so we d6'd it.

[MOMUS]

Im inclined to say that they would be strength 2 as the withering would take them down to 1 min (cannot go below 1) and then you would add the +1S from the banner. The spell affects the base unit strength, by that i mean the profile stat-line.

[Hell Storm]

The spell never says base Str. You would be Str 1 because you are normally 3 but the banner gives you +1 at all times. So the unit is Str 4 when the spell is cast which, when reduced by 3, would give you a total of 1.

[Brotheroracle]

I agree with Hell.

[T10]

Regardless of the order in which you apply the modifiers, the total modifier is -2, and this does not reduce the Strength characteristic 3 to less than the minimum 1 allowed.

[decker_cky]

When the spell is cast, the gors are S4 so -3 can apply, dropping them to S1.

I believe that if the spell was on the gors, and the BSB left the unit, then rejoined the unit, they'd be S2.

[geldedgoat]

When the spell is cast, the gors are S4 so -3 can apply, dropping them to S1.

I believe that if the spell was on the gors, and the BSB left the unit, then rejoined the unit, they'd be S2.

Hmmm... I think I like the sound of this one.

[T10]

Oh, really? So if the banner leaves the unit then the unit dies? Obviously not, since spells cannot bring characteristics to below 1. But if the banner later rejoins the unit while it is subject to the same spell (and same modifier) then it's suddenly back up to S2?

I can't say I agree.

[Hell Storm]

I agree with T10. It is a penalty that sticks around. So think of it as -3 (min 1), that recalculates everytime a new bonus or penalty is applied. So 3+1 is the normal Stat. Then a -3 is applied, which is a 1. If the banner leaves, then the min 1 will kick in and still be at 1. When the banner joins the whole Stat is calculated again. 3+1-3 is still a 1.

[Iraf]

I agree with both T10 and Hell Storm's interpretation.

[geldedgoat]

Oh, really? So if the banner leaves the unit then the unit dies? Obviously not, since spells cannot bring characterristics to below 1.

Some spells can (Curse of the Leper). But this one specifies a minimum, so no, the unit wouldn't die.

But if the banner later rejoins the unit while it is subject to the same spell (and same modifier) then it's sudden,y back up to S2?

Yeah, this does sound kinda silly. I hadn't considered what would happen if the BSB left and then rejoined... especially since Withering is a remains in play spell (I forgot it was - had to look that up again).

[Gaargod]

Surely it depends on which order the modifiers are applied? Which unfortunately, as there's nothing specifying, relies on whose turn it is? I know that's annoying, but there's nothing to say whether the modifiers are applied consecutively or concurrently.

For example, curse of the leper is applied to a unit, taking them to S2. Then withering is cast, with a roll of -3S. Withering has a minimum strength left of 1, the curse doesn't. If you apply it consecutively, which is most natural, they will only drop to S1 (curse to S2, withering -3 but to a min). If concurrently, presumably withering takes them to S1 then curse finishes them off?

What if they have the beast banner too? Could end up in a weird situation there. I don't know, the interpretation that it's a total modifier recalculated every time something's added or taken away seems reasonable, but because curse doesn't have a minimum strength (and thus kills the unit), you could end up in odd situations where the only difference that spell makes if it's cast is whether or not the unit's strength drops below 1.

[Lord Inquisitor]

I would have said 3+1-3=1.

However I would say bestigor under the effect of -3S would be S1 then S3 from the great weapons, and I don't have a good reason why these two would be treated differently. Because great weapons are a temporary bonus?

[thesoundofmusica]

I would have said 3+1-3=1.

However I would say bestigor under the effect of -3S would be S1 then S3 from the great weapons, and I don't have a good reason why these two would be treated differently. Because great weapons are a temporary bonus?

Isnt that a bad example? They'd be S3 regardless wouldnt they?

S4 - S3 + S2 = S3

S4 + S2 - S3 = S3

[Lord Inquisitor]

LOL forgot bestigor are base S4, whoops. Let's say Empire Greatswords instead.

[a18no]

I would say: the player whose turn it is choose the order.

If it was 2 spells, I think the rules says you apply in the order they are cast. Since in the situation, we talk about is spells and other effect (magic banner), I would rule it differently.

[Sexiest_hero]

Str 1 I'm sure.

[thesoundofmusica]

Why does it have to depend on which order modifiers are added? To me the logical thing would be to simply add up the modifiers and then apply the result. Is there anything in the rulebook about that? Would take away most doubt and silly things like "whos turn is it".

[hamsterwheel]

I think I agree with T10 from reading his first explanation. Modifiers should add together before being applied and the +1 to Strength from the banner is a modifier, it doesn't affect the base stat.

[Von Wibble]

Why does it have to depend on which order modifiers are added? To me the logical thing would be to simply add up the modifiers and then apply the result. Is there anything in the rulebook about that? Would take away most doubt and silly things like "whos turn is it".

I have to agree with this. But who said logic should apply in the minds of the game designers?