8th Edition 2012 book Empire Tactica

[Reiko321]

AFAIK, paired weapons are not "additional hand weapons".

So, the extra attack rule that is applied for paired weapons works both mounted and on foot*.

*unless it was FAQ'd somewhere.

[Spiney Norman]

You can but you just don't get the extra attack.

ummm, incorrect as far as I know, there is no FAQ that I am aware of stipulating that paired weapons or the extra attack rule do not work while mounted. I may just have to check to see that I have the latest version [EDIT: I do]. Additional hand weapons (p.91) are NOT the same as paired weapons (p.501)

What lore would the wizard on griffon use ?

Lore of beasts, if he rolls transformation it will be switched for wyssans wild form. He has access to two buff spells which would enhance his ability in combat, whatever he rolls one spell will definitely be switched for wyssans as its one of the most useful spells in the game for buffing empire infantry.

I'm thinking of swapping the VHS for the white cloak, mainly for the -1 to hit, is this a good change or not?

[GodlessM]

Compared to the last edition book, the new book is a load of garbage.
Cruddace, I hate you I hate you I hate you I hate you I hate you I hate you I hate you I hate you.

One thing, the Detachment rule mentions Frenzy. Is there even any way for us to get frenzy on a parent unit?

This is a tactica, not a 12yr old temper tandrum thread; please grow up.

[danny-d-b]

not sure where my previous post has gone so I'll put it in again

although I've not read the book yet (hoping to go pick it up next week) I'm still thinking that the empire list is going to work well if you make sure you have some decent core blocks first, then get some 'toys' to back it up, rather than just taking exactly 25% of core and filling the list full of artillery/lazers/demi gryph knights, as far as list building goes, aim to not lose the game with a list of state troops, then look to win the game with the toys (if that makes sence)

[Spoonie]

I don't think I agree with that. Unless if by "toys" you mean "things that are actually effective". A couple cheap rank bonuses are nice, but beyond that all you're gaining is the ability to lose more combats simultaneously by taking more state troops.

[danny-d-b]

by toys I'm meaning artillery, demi gyrph knights, expensive caracters and the lazer thing
yes the toys are all nice, but are demi gyrph knights alone going to kill a hoard of marauders, no, you prob win first turn, they hold because of steadfast and then your stuck there

I'd rater have the marauders and state troops fight it out, hopefully keep the fight level due to caracter support then have the demi gyrph knights hit the flank

and I don't think gun lines work in 8th with combat offen happening turn 2 on a regualar occurance

[GodlessM]

I don't think I agree with that. Unless if by "toys" you mean "things that are actually effective". A couple cheap rank bonuses are nice, but beyond that all you're gaining is the ability to lose more combats simultaneously by taking more state troops.

Right because State Troops break all laws of probability and just always lose no matter what

[Spoonie]

Yes the state troops can hold things up, but you're not going to win the game by making the enemy units stop for 3 combat phases to wipe out your units. In my opinion, you can get plenty of core schlubs with your 25% minimum, especially if you're taking another choice somewhere else that can handle frontal combats. At that point, with the character tax of needing leadership, a BSB and a level 4, you need all the points you can get for things that are actually going to let you win.

Right because State Troops break all laws of probability and just always lose no matter what

The probability is they ARE going to lose to almost everything else in the game, so I'm not sure what you were trying to say. If they almost always lost that would be strictly adhering to the laws of probability, such as they are.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

As Ranald said, this isn't a place to state how rubbish things are. We all already know that.

For one, I will be busy building more spears. I still have a sizeable heap of models unassembled plus some more without the tips, as halberds were difficult to rank up. Spearmen are the cheapest core combat choice, so they are probably best used as anvils. Halberd detachments sound like a good idea to me, although they will still see service as main units - and in this faculty, one should still field them in relatively large amounts, as they drop like flies.

One of the challenges of this book will IMO be to hit the right middle ground between the size of units and their number. Not using detachments, or few, made this easy the last time.

Another challenge will be to protect stuff through items, buffs, deployment, movement etc. You don't want to have your detachment get charged, as it most likely will not be steadfast on its own, and HtL is relatively useless on Ld 3-4. You don't want your comparatively fragile characters get killed, as so many boosts hinge on them. The same goes for the Wagons. At this point in time, it looks like a house of cards. remove one supporting element and your list becomes exponentially worse. That is one glaring drawback of this clockwork design concept.

[Reiko321]

Since I haven't seen this posted yet:

Demigryphs can get Halberds. Simple, normal, halberds. So that would induce a 2+ armor save in Combat. Boo.

I still think lance/shield is better because at T3 the 1+ armor save is better to keep you alive.

[ROCKY]

are they considered Monstrous cavalry or normal cav? the rule book states that in the case of riding models (not Monsters) with more wounds, such as the demigryphs they are all treated as one model and take the highest amount of wounds among them. so if this is the case they might get 3 wounds

[Walls]

First thing is people really need to learn rules lol. Demigryphs get 3 wounds. Fencers blades do not give an extra attack mounted. But go ahead and give your opponent WS 10 in the challenge. I have a feeling things will barely change for
Empire. We will remain mid tier with a bunch of viable builds. I am great with that.

[Spiney Norman]

First thing is people really need to learn rules lol. Demigryphs get 3 wounds. Fencers blades do not give an extra attack mounted. But go ahead and give your opponent WS 10 in the challenge. I have a feeling things will barely change for
Empire. We will remain mid tier with a bunch of viable builds. I am great with that.

Ok, you're going to have to give me a rule book or FAQ reference to explain why the fencers blades do not give an extra attack when mounted, because the rules as I read them say they do.
P.501

Paired Weapons are magic weapons that a bought as a pair. In addition to their other effects, paired weapons grant ther bearer the Extra attack special rule

P. 69

Extra Attack: A model with this special rule (or who is attacking with a weapon that bestows this special rule) increases his attacks value by 1

There is no reference to being mounted anywhere, and no reference to the rule for additional hand weapons either. Please explain your line of reasoning.

In addition I don't think the VHS swaps WS in combat, I was also under the impression that it swapped unmodified stats.

In any case I think it would be better to drop the VHS for the white cloak, which means our wizard lord is now...

Battle Wizard Lord
Level 4, Lore of beasts, Imperial griffon, white cloak, fencers blades

Discussion about the viability of blood roars, multiple heads and other options may now commence

[Whut]

This is a tactica, not a 12yr old temper tandrum thread; please grow up.

haha, now I'm all embarrassed.

Anyway, tactics.

A Celestial Derpcanum is pretty much an auto-include. Giving 2 units +1 to hit and the extra powerdice is good for the cost.

The biggest issue that I see is that we don't have any good combat unit. Savage Orcs, WoC, that sort of thing. most armies have such things in special/rare, we used to have the Steam Tank, but now the steam tank, while more destructive and maneuverable, is WAY too accident prone. We used to have incredible artillery shooting, but that was also nerfed.

I just don't feel we have the hitting power. Demigryph Knights are good, but I don't feel they can carry a game by themselves. Their attacks are quality over quantity, so they can't deal with many of the units that are most popular right now: Hordes of 40-50 and tarpits of 50+

I agree on the Demigryph Lances. Plus keep in mind the halberds will only affect the rider's attacks - you will only be getting 4 of those at most probably.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Lances are probably better for DGK. There's quite some difference between 1+ and 2+, while it rarely matters if the riders' one attack is S4 or S5.

First thing is people really need to learn rules lol. ... But go ahead and give your opponent WS 10 in the challenge.

Hah! VHS does not swap WS as Spiney Norman already said.

[GodlessM]

The probability is they ARE going to lose to almost everything else in the game, so I'm not sure what you were trying to say. If they almost always lost that would be strictly adhering to the laws of probability, such as they are.

Wow, just wow. If you think that is a compelling argument then I advise you go look up the definition of strawman.

If you actually do some math you'd realise you are strongly mistaken. Take a few samples below using 40 Halberdiers in horde formation as an example fighting various opponents of equivalent points and common equipment and deployment builds, considering wounds and ranks for CR as banners vary in cost:

Vs 80 Night Goblins, 60 TK Skellies, 48 VC Skellies, 120 Skavenslaves etc - beat enemies 13 - 9 if enemy is in horde with HW+S, beat enemies 12 - 6 if enemy goes deep (5 wide) with Spears.
Vs 24 Ghouls - beat enemy 12 - 11 assuming horded Ghouls (even bigger win against narrower formations).
Vs 15 Chaos Warriors - lose to the enemy 5 - 8 with enemy 5 wide with HW+S.
Vs 26 Elf Spearmen - lose to the enemy 8 - 11 when enemy goes deep.
Vs 11 Ogres - beat enemy 10 - 9 with enemy 4 wide.
Vs 21 Saurus - tie at 7 - 7 with enemy 6 wide.

I could go on but every example would take all day and I couldn't be arsed putting up full work-ups as your post isn't worth that much work. As you see they win against most other basic infantry, tying with the Saurus and losing only to the Elves. They get beaten by the elites but anyone expecting basic foot soldiers to beat elites is dreaming. Most of the results above can give results to similar type unit; Clanrats fit the same bill as Goblins for example.

My main point here is, though the work-up above isn't perfect, it at least gives an example of why you should think before making such silly blanket statements. If someone else wants to do a full proper work up they should feel free, but I'm not going to waste the time.

[BUB]

Wow, just wow. If you think that is a compelling argument then I advise you go look up the definition of strawman.

If you actually do some math you'd realise you are strongly mistaken. Take a few samples below using 40 Halberdiers in horde formation as an example fighting various opponents of equivalent points and common equipment and deployment builds, considering wounds and ranks for CR as banners vary in cost:

Vs 80 Night Goblins, 60 TK Skellies, 48 VC Skellies, 120 Skavenslaves etc - beat enemies 13 - 9 if enemy is in horde with HW+S, beat enemies 12 - 6 if enemy goes deep (5 wide) with Spears.
Vs 24 Ghouls - beat enemy 12 - 11 assuming horded Ghouls (even bigger win against narrower formations).
Vs 15 Chaos Warriors - lose to the enemy 5 - 8 with enemy 5 wide with HW+S.
Vs 26 Elf Spearmen - lose to the enemy 8 - 11 when enemy goes deep.
Vs 11 Ogres - beat enemy 10 - 9 with enemy 4 wide.
Vs 21 Saurus - tie at 7 - 7 with enemy 6 wide.

I could go on but every example would take all day and I couldn't be arsed putting up full work-ups as your post isn't worth that much work. As you see they win against most other basic infantry, tying with the Saurus and losing only to the Elves. They get beaten by the elites but anyone expecting basic foot soldiers to beat elites is dreaming. Most of the results above can give results to similar type unit; Clanrats fit the same bill as Goblins for example.

My main point here is, though the work-up above isn't perfect, it at least gives an example of why you should think before making such silly blanket statements. If someone else wants to do a full proper work up they should feel free, but I'm not going to waste the time.

Plus there's the fact Empire have access to easy to cast/spam prayers that help in combat as well as being able to choose from all the lores of magic. Meaning they can get the juicy Timewarps and Mindrazors to help those "crappy" state troops win combat.

[RanaldLoec]

Has any one noticed that the arch lectors prays on a war alter affects all units with in 6 inch.

Not too shabby, with the hatred bubble I see the War Alter still making a regular appearance in Empire lists.

Also the engineer cam give his "bs and re-roll one artillery dice" so the Helblaster goes back in the list as well.

Over all I'm quite happy with the book.

Shame the stank dropped to LD 7, I loved mind razor on the brute.

Sent from my HTC using a blind mouse and a frustrated one armed monkey.

[Whut]

Well to be honest, you can't compare these point-for-point. You will rarely see a unit of 24 Ghouls. More likely you will see a unit of 40-50, in which case horde-on-horde you obtain a result of 13 - 7 in favor of ghouls, and because of the size of the units just because the ghouls cost more points does not mean you will have another factor that contributes to that combat, positioning might not allow for that.

Looking at things in a vaccum does not give you good results. You have to take into account what choices will actually be taken, and the effect of positioning. You might be able to get 2 units for the price of the 50 ghouls, but the ghoul unit might not allow you to get that into combat to assist.

In the same way, you won't go against 26 Spearmen, more like 50 in a horde. In which case they win 18 - 10, and most likely break you.

Lastly, try to compare your choices to things that are more powerful. Compare Halberdiers to Marauders with GW for example, and cry.

[Tuttivillus]

Compare Halberdiers to Marauders with GW for example, and cry.

Those marauders with Gw reminded me why militia was bumped in cost