Regarding the new Altars / wizardmobiles.
The way I'm reading it, the spells they cast count as standard bound spells, even if there's a wizard on the thing? What is the benefit of putting a wizard on there, rather than just having him separate (and therefore less likely to die to templates)? I'm hoping I'm reading it wrong, and there's some rule that says his +4 to cast contributes to the bound spell if he's mounted on there, but I can't find it.
Nope. Same thing with Corpse carts. Zero reason to mount a Necro.
What does that have anything to do with militia?Those marauders with Gw reminded me why militia was bumped in cost http://www.warseer.com/forums/warsee...lies/smile.png
Last edited by Whut; 08-04-2012 at 00:11.
Some enemy spells can induce Frenzy on their target. I don't have my books in front of me, but I think one of the Skaven and one of the Chaos lores can accomplish this.Originally Posted by Whut
And in every one of these cases because these units cost more point you will have something else the even out those points that can also get thrown into the equation. If you have a unit double the cost of mine, that means I can have a second unit which you also have to fight. Sure you can't look at things in a vacuum, but sometimes that's the best you can get since armies vary so much, but the one constant is that the points are there to even things out (not that GW have always gotten it right); if your guys are better chances are I'll just have a lot more guys and the fighting won't be one on one.
I was toying with the idea that 6 Demigryphs ran 3x2 might be pretty good, but you give up 9 attacks in the back rank I realized. With Monstrous Cavalry, only the rider gets supporting attacks.
However, 4 wide with a captain on a pegasus...
Perhaps even 2 units of 3 would be pretty viable, using them in the same way lots of people would use a small unit of 5 or 6 knights. Only this unit would get 12 attacks!
Honestly I don't feel that the captain is worth it. That is already the cost of 2 Knights for less fighting power than 1.
Well Godless, I'll try to respond without acting personally offended...
As Whut touched on, you can't just compare them point for point. I never said they were points inefficient, I said they were bad- And they are. 40 state troops in a horde will lose to 40 pretty much anything else that isn't just a tarpit. And that's what you're going to see with units like the mentioned ghouls. But you're still going to hold them there for awhile and do a decent number of kills, and you spent less points than they did, so awesome. The original argument I was making was against spending more points than you really need to on state troops, however. It's sort of meta-specific, but after you have enough blocks of infantry to engage the number of enemy units coming your way, I think the points would be better spent on special and rare choices to get some more 'pressure to point', if you will, to hammer those combats home.
Hmm, let's see what I would probably do with Empire.
Here's my initial thoughts:
- I like the idea of having a healthy number of Knights. Take some Inner Circle Knights, some Stubborn Reiksguard Knights, and maybe even Kurt Helsborg.
- So with tha said, I like the idea of 1 general and 1 Wizard Lord in my Lord choices. A Lv.4 with a power scroll is all I really need imo.
- For heroes, I would take a Lv.1 supporting Wiz, a Captain BSB w/ Meteoric Iron and 1-2 Warrior Priests.
- If your Lord slot is cheap, you can even load up on Witch Hunters w/ Braces. Luthor Huss is also really good for his points.
- If points allow, the Archlector over Warrior Priests on a Alter is also really good since his Prayers and Hatred now effects everything within 6".
- If I was to take a Helblaster, I would take a Master Engineer for sure, just because of the BS4 and re-roll 1 artillery die.
- The main core battleline will prob see a big unit of Halberdiers. Go big, go horde, and rely on different unit synergies to get your damage output out there.
- With that, I mean WP Battle Prayers and the Celestial Hurricanum. The 6" Aura of +1 hit is insane with the WP for damage output.
- I will probably take some Great Cannons, a big block of Flagellants if I want them over Knights, or take 4x1 Demigryph Knights in Lance/Shield config. Not sure if FC is worth it yet on them.
In short, Empire seems to be a really solid combo-heavy army that relies on several different conditions to carry them through the day. If they're successful in this, they will absolutely maul through things without problems. Once you start removing their vital buff pieces, things become much more difficult.
Last edited by BEARO; 08-04-2012 at 06:28.
Well in fairness it depends how accurate your helblaster or helstorm have been, there are certainly situations where you could find yourself facing a reduced horde of 26 Spearmen after 3 turns of shooting.
It's been said a hundred times in various places alady, but comparing our new state troops to a unit generally thought of as overpowered from an army book last done at the height of 7th edition power creep craziness is not a good idea.
Besides, aren't warriors the next book in line for a redo, I guess the apparent discrepancy will be sorted out then, and we'll have exactly the same kind of whining from WoC players about how their marauders will never again see the table...
Last edited by Spiney Norman; 08-04-2012 at 06:42.
any argument to say that they're thinking of us by turning metal to resin is as convincing as a frenzied Khorne worshipper covered in blood, still chomping on a victim, with a Khorne sigil tattooed to his forhead pleading a case of mistaken identity when questioned about a murder.
@BEARO: I agreew with you on most points but why do you consider a power scroll needed or sufficient? SS are much harder to come by, so a ban scroll can still be a good choice. The same goes for the wagons - a 6++ ward might not look like much but when you have 2x40+ models withing 6", it can add up. The additional DD however would come in really handy.
Some more random thoughts:
- WH don't come from the Lord allowance, so you can spent all your Lord points.
- A Waltar will be good but expensive, especially considering his exposed position. I'm thinking well over 300 points.
@Spiney Norman: People have been wrong each of those hundred times, Spiney. This is a Tactica. People *will* see Marauders and Slaves and Temple Guard across the table. Not knowing their capabilities and purposefully ignoring those capabilities in relation to ours is just folly, and the fact that they come from older books suddenly becomes academic.
Last edited by Lord Solar Plexus; 08-04-2012 at 07:36.
I would like to know people's thoughts on Arch Lector on War Altar vs. two Warrior Priests on foot? One could save many points with just the two WPs and realistically the 6" hate radius of the WA would rarely benefit more than two units, which could have WPs in them instead. The Arch Lector now also can only cast one prayer pr turn (right?) and with two WPs you can cast two... Although the one prayer from the AL will be able to affect more units.
There are advantages and disadvantages for both...
In general, what are people's opnion on lord choices now?
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is there any restriction on the WP's bound spell?. i dont see any mention that only 1 can be cast per turn anymore so i guess you could go for all 3, assuming you dont lose concentration etc.
but i like the idea of running 2 cheap priests, maybe just with mundane kit, gives you 2 chances to channel too.
doesnt seem to be any reason to mount your wizard on a wizcart but i guess it would mean the points come from your lord slot and not rares (although for some reason the hurricanium drops by 5 points as a mount?)
engineer with a helblaster seems pretty good, BS 4 with a re-roll, and he doesnt die if the machine exploades (although i guess he'd nedd a panic check), could also work on the helstorm as his BS and re-roll will still be handy.
Our bsb capt can take FPA and shield giving 3+/6++ not bad, could add in the dawnstone for a re-roll. would that be better than the new armour of meteroic iron with his his whole allownace and 1+/6++?
edit i think i should change my sig, having read the book i dont think it's as bad as people were fearing beforehand, although i guess i need a few games with it too.
Last edited by Count Zero; 08-04-2012 at 09:33.
'Hold the line, sons of the Empire
I see the same fear in you that would take the heart of me,
but fear not for we don't auto break and can re-roll for it next turn.
a day may come when Robin Cruddace writes a good book, but it is not this day
a day may come when Ewar doesn't powergame, but it is not this day
This day our dice will roll sixes
This day we will be victorious!
I'm pretty sure that both AL and WP can cast as many prayers as you have dice for, up to a max of three of course.
Looking at prayers, it would seem to me that WP's will be even more important than they used to be, despite no DD except for the odd channeled dice. You will have to invest some points into some decent protective gear or they will die in combat pretty soon. That holds especially true for everyone starting to use Spearmen busses, as the placement to the side won't help as much as in a horde.
The Waltar is much less in danger of combat damage but probably just as enticing to shoot at for everyone with cannon or other WM. It can easily effect just as many units as two WP's, or even more. Two WP's can support two parents and four detachments max, a 6" bubble allows for that plus a unit of knights or GS (detachments do not need to be in the bubble).
It might well be a wash...but as someone who regularly took a TGM I'm having a hard time deciding on my Lord choice as well.
I'm certainly less inclined to take an AL on WA now due to a number of reasons:
- Depending on more important prayers will mean you will allocate more power dice to casting them which will make it more obvious to your opponent and he will likely comfortably be able to dispel you using less dice. IE you want the two big parent units next to your WA the prayer of 5++ in combat and you allocate 3 dice. You have no bonus to cast so your opponent's level 4 can comfortably throw 2 dice and odds are he will dispel you
3.5x2 +4 > 3x3.5
- Opting for the single dice cast on your AL is unreliable if you want to affect multiple units. You have a 1/3 chance to fail it and leave both your big parent units and their respective attachments unbuffed.
- Having multiple warrior priests allows you to comfortably spam 1 dice casts. The beauty of this is your opponent will either have to 1. Allocate 2 or more dice putting himself at a disadvantage for dispelling in the rest of the phase or 2. Use 1 dice and risk a 1/3 chance of failing to dispel and breaking his concentration.
- Arch lector gives an 18" Ld 9 bubble which has always been very attractive although I would argue that this shine has diminished considerably as putting a cheap captain in each parent unit will allow you to roll on 3d6 for break tests so ld in combat won't be as vital as it was before.
- A benefit and a draw back to the Arch Lector would be it's big footprint on the board which means you're opponent is more likely to determine it as a target whereas simple warrior priests are not as likely to get as much attention. It also means that your opponent might seek to destroy it instead of your wizard mobiles which do not have the 4+ ward the war altar does.
- Having more WPs also lends you the benefit of channelling more often resulting in more dispel/power dice albeit unreliably.
- Points cost is a big one here you can effectively take 4 naked Warrior priests for the price of an arch lector on war altar which can cover a much larger area than the 6" radius war altar.
- Each of their respective choice slots come into play too if it really comes down to the wire in your mind you should think about which slot you want the points to be coming out of. Not having an AL could mean you can take those extra magic items on your Level 4 to make it more defensive/offensive. Not having WPs take up hero points could mean you can take more witch hunters, captains and engineers.
Personally I doubt I'll be fielding an AL on WA anymore it's seen far too much game time and I think the only lord choice I'll be fielding is a trusty level 4.
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2012 Tournament Games
Wins: Losses: Draws
Brettonians: 2:3:0
Empire: 1:4:0
That's not the point. There is no point in a tactics thread lamenting a units effectiveness vs another unit and using that as a reason to deplore said units points cost. There is also relatively little point in talking about unit x vs unit y in isolation. Tactic threads are not for people who want to doom-say and tell every one else that using unit x will always end in disaster, take that to GW general, this is where we talk about how the army does work, not where we lament that it doesn't.
I am not going to be marching 40 Spearmen up into the face of 40 marauders and expecting them to win, I'm going to shoot the marauders with my helblaster, zap it with a few DD spells, buff my state troops up to the hilt, flank the unit with knights and toss what is left of the marauders to the 8 winds. Ok so real battles rarely work like that and something will almost certainly go wrong, but that is no excuse not to have a battle plan, and "march state troops to engage with marauders on equal terms" is not much of a plan.
I'm interested to hear what you think of my griffon wizard lord LSP, is it workable or not?
Last edited by Spiney Norman; 08-04-2012 at 11:54.
any argument to say that they're thinking of us by turning metal to resin is as convincing as a frenzied Khorne worshipper covered in blood, still chomping on a victim, with a Khorne sigil tattooed to his forhead pleading a case of mistaken identity when questioned about a murder.
I may not be LSP but I don't think it's a good idea. IF you want to take advantage of the griffon's combat prowess you'll also have to risk your expensive unarmoured wizard lord and that's a very bad gamble IMO. If not then your practically wasting the griffon and also one of lore of beast's arguably most deadly spells, transformation of khadon. If by workable you mean competitive than no I don't think it's a competitive choice but then again I'm not LSP.
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2012 Tournament Games
Wins: Losses: Draws
Brettonians: 2:3:0
Empire: 1:4:0
On the other hand, if you get the right spells off, then your wizard lord can be much hittier than a general (5 str 6 attacks at WS10, plus the griffon) and the enemy can potentially be at -2 to hit both the wizard and griffon.
Ok, so it isn't fool proof, spells can always fail or be dispelled, but the joy of a flying monster is that you get a great degree of freedom in choosing your targets, hitting flanks etc, where the wizard will be facing less deadly opponents.
I'm just slightly bored with the general on griffon combos which completely waste the main point in being a general-HtL
Plus the wizard IS the coolest rider model in the griffon box, by quite some stretch
any argument to say that they're thinking of us by turning metal to resin is as convincing as a frenzied Khorne worshipper covered in blood, still chomping on a victim, with a Khorne sigil tattooed to his forhead pleading a case of mistaken identity when questioned about a murder.
Don't forget the War Alter also means that the Ld bubble goes up to 18" cos it a large target. moreover the One Walter doesn't have to risk combat to be effective whereas the bare bones warrior preist will be taken out by troops long before the hatred can take effect. with area effect the AL can stay safe and still confer bonus'
I agree, and besides, why buy a Pegasus and not fly with it? Could be nice if you gave the Captain the Crown of Command though.
Meteoric Iron is a terrible deal. Taking Full Plate, the Enchanted Shield, and Talisman of Endurance is cheaper and gives better protection.
Everyone keeps mentioning Warrior Priests in units. One big issue. Anyone with half a brain will just direct his attacks to the WP and kill him before he makes any difference in the combat.
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