8th Edition 2012 book Empire Tactica

[Whut]

This is a tactica thread. Lets keep the background related stuff to the background forum. "I want to use this unit because it looks cool" isn't a good enough justification for a tactica.

This

[DivineVisitor]

Im gonna be trying out 3 Hellblasters supported by an engineer each and a Celestial Wizard casting Harmonic Convergence, Gonna be blasting away entire units at a time

[Jerry]

Guys one thing strikes me when i see your unit comp. No one uses feedback scroll. In normal list its not that good of an item but in empire where you can easy have 2+ hochland this item is a beast. The main downside of it is that it rarely kills enemy mages. But in Empire list we can finish of what it has started with Hochland. Ask yourself this - how many people will risk seeing his mage feedbacked to death after beeing hit with HLR before ?

Handgunners are expensive and easy to kill to cause panic amongst your troops. If you take a HLR your unit is now 30 points more expensive for a guy that'll be hitting on 4s/5s and wounding on 3s/4s. Best case scenario, considering the enemy wizard has no ward save/armour save, is you have a 1/3 chance of getting a wound but the most likely scenario is you will be at long range and you're target will have a 5+ save which means your chance of scoring a wound is now 4/27. This way you don't even have a reasonable chance to score 1 wound a game.
Also taking a feedback scroll either means your level 4 needs to replace his own arcane item or you replace your scroll caddie's item or you'll have to take another wizard. All of these options aren't good.

[GodlessM]

- General (FPA, Barded Horse, Stubborn Helm, Dawnstone, 5+ Ward) - To go with ICK.

Not possible, as you are either taking FPA and Armour of Fortune, or Endurance Talisman/White Cloak and Dawnstone. Basically, you either have two armours or two Talismen, so illegal.

This is a tactica thread. Lets keep the background related stuff to the background forum. "I want to use this unit because it looks cool" isn't a good enough justification for a tactica.

According to who? Last I looked, tactics wasn't taking all the best choices and forgetting the rest. The point of the tactics thread is to attempt to find viable tactics for all units, for people playing both competitively and casually; if you and Whut think it is all about yer play style, think again. Narcissism is considered heresy in the Warhammer World, and we just got Witch Hunters.

[RanaldLoec]

A tactica thread for discussing EVERY unit in the book and how to get the best from it regardless of it been an auto include or exclude.

Saying don't use it ever Isn't tactics, now is it.

Ninja'd by the Godless one.

If all you have to add is "its useless don't use it" please don't bother.

Now if you list why its not very good but then go onto suggest a use or strength of the unit then that's what we went.

Example Storm of Magic sees allot of big monsters. A high elf dragon mage on a fulcrum can be hard to shift. The ability to choose to hit the mage and not have to randomize hits helps.

You will find your posts are better received if you look at the good and the bad in a unit.

[BEARO]

Not possible, as you are either taking FPA and Armour of Fortune, or Endurance Talisman/White Cloak and Dawnstone. Basically, you either have two armours or two Talismen, so illegal.

I meant to say Dawnstone OR 5+ ward, thanks for the catch
Not sure whether I like the 1+ re-rollable or the 1+ AS and White Cloak w/ Stubborn Helm, or even just the 4+ Ward :/

[Whut]

A tactica thread for discussing EVERY unit in the book and how to get the best from it regardless of it been an auto include or exclude.

Saying don't use it every isn't tactics, now is it.

This is a tactics forum. We are discussing unit choices. Wulfhart should never be taken as there is absolutely no reason to. Even if our army didn't have cannons I still wouldn't take him.

[Spiney Norman]

This brings up a good question:

What will your Lv.4 be taking in most games? Right now I'm at Metal, Shadow or Light.

Metal because of Spirit of the Forge, Enchanted Blades stacking with Hurricanum, Glittering Scales for even more armor! (Great Swords with 2+ armor!), and the armor debuffs on heavily armored units that we might have trouble with.

Shadow.. because Shadow is great overall.

and Light because.. WS10 I10, harder to hit in CC and in ranged, Nets and Banishment, and ofc, Timewarp.

Actually I'm liking the lore of beasts right now, wild form is brilliant on our core state troops, in fact it's maybe the best sig spell we have on offer. The character buff spells are good as well ESP if you have a witch hunter around. Also curse of anraheir is a ridiculously good hex with a long range which is useful whether you're in combat or not.

[RanaldLoec]

This is a tactics forum. We are discussing unit choices. Wulfhart should never be taken as there is absolutely no reason to. Even if our army didn't have cannons I still wouldn't take him.

Did you read my opening post, obviously not.

Here you go " please keep trolls away and this isn't the place for posting how rubbish you think x,y and z is.


A unit may be sub par but this thread is for how to get the best from each unit regardless of its perceived power level."


Wulfhart brings an enhanced unit.

As I play Woodelves as well I can atest to the effectiveness of a mobile skirmisher screen that can march and shoot.

In competitive tournaments I see loads of games vs skaven and Darkelves, wulfharts unit with a flaming banner is a reliable way to get flaming shots. You can't guarantee flaming attacks from magic or priests. They may not kill the unit but they can cause a wound allowing a cannon to finish it off.

Empire plays a static unwieldy game, Huntsmen add an unexpected element to the list normally not seen in an empire army. Been able to march reform and shoot gives you allot of tactics to play with.

Wulfhart not being an option is just your opinion, yes he's not the most competitive choice but he is very much usable.

[Battlecry]

hey guys my first proper post. ive been playing empire for a long time, and i'll admit i was a bit disgruntled with the new book. i may be a competative gamer but at the end of the day empire is my army of choice, so after my initial shock i got quite excited to see how i could make it work. first off i dont really believe theirs any real auto includes with the army as it is now. its my belief you really got to think about what you want your army to do/ and how it goes about doing it. So heres my first darft of my new throne of skulls 2000 pt list

Lords
Balthasar gelt

heros

Captain
bsb
full plate
Enchanted sheild

warrior priest
AomI
additional hand weapon (an excuse to use the sexy new model)

Engineer

Core

30 crossbowmen
banner

35 halberdiers
banner

20 greatswords
band of discipline
champ

cannon

cannon

steam tank

helblaster


SO the theory behind my choices. First off balthasar gelt. after reading his rules, to me he seems a pretty solid. with our troops going up in points across the borad i felt it necessary we need to invest in magical buffs for them. With loremaster, 3+ward save from shooting, a 6+!!!! to cast spells from lore of metal, even with a poor roll for the magic phase he still stands a very good chance of getting a few spells off. i play in a very competative evironment so being able to use enchanted blades of aiban on my crossbow men, to using glittering robe for my great swords (2+ save plz!) and being able to snipe enemy characters and crippling death star units with final transmutation, i feel his got great tactical flexablity with my army choices


Next my bsb. basic armour cheap magic sheild for a +2 save. i see alot of ppl giving their bsb Aomi but to me thats a waste. save that item for the warrior priests they find it alot harder to stack a decent armour save

Warrior priest ( will be the general with the great swords) With Aomi to get the 1+ save and 6 ward and a additional hand weapon to squeeze in a extra attack. hatred and who knows giving the great swords a 5+ ward will make them really resliant.

Engeenir goes with the helblaster to improve bs and for the reroll on the art dice. talking about the helblaster i look forward to the day i use enchanted blades on it to crank out a butt load of magical, strength 5 shots hitting with good odds on my friends highly annoying etheral slaan that just loves to get abit cocky and floats around my lines. cant wait to see his face when i pull that for the first time.

on to my core selections

first off 30 crossbows. my thoughts behind these guys is to really whrittle down horde units, shoot knights, knock off ranks. i'll be deploying them 15x2 so i can get 30 shots off. taking these guys over hand gunners just because if i buff them with enchanted blades they become just as good but with a extra 6inch range and also with +1 to hit they will hit on 4's long range. when buffed i believe they could really have some good damage out put. i can see my friends swordmasters being crippled after 2 turns of fire.

35 halberdiers will be deployed 5x7 just to add extra bodies to my army and hold up one of my enemys main combat blocks while i destroy the others

Special

Greatswords are to be my tarpit unit, or the unit to garrison the tower if i control it. being able to buff there save to 2+ makes them the same as great weapon knights with stubbon. with a 2+ save and who knows a 5+ ward they will be hard to shift, inside or outside a tower

2 cannons. lets face it cannons are still great and who knows maybe still a little cheap. they will target monsters first then rank and file after or lone charaters. btw remenber this lil tip, if theres isnt anything really worth shooting dont bother, u dont want to give up 120pts for nothing

Rare

helblaster alrdy covered its use

the stank only 250 pts, makes a big threat for my opposition to think about. cant see myself using the cannon that often, only if i need a extra cannon shot to with a artillery duel. its main use will be to engage a enemy unit in combat with a long bomb charge, then in ensuring rounds to steam gun it to death. i might use to support the halberds but it all spends on my foe.

well let me know what you think!

[Gargobot]

In competitive tournaments I see loads of games vs skaven and Darkelves, wulfharts unit with a flaming banner is a reliable way to get flaming shots. You can't guarantee flaming attacks from magic or priests. They may not kill the unit but they can cause a wound allowing a cannon to finish it off.

I don't see how Wulfhart's unit can get the flaming banner. The only way would be to include a BSB with it in the unit of huntsmen. Not sure if that's advisable. Please correct me if I'm wrong, cause I really hope I am, as I rate Markus Wulfhart pretty low right now.

[RanaldLoec]

I don't see how Wulfhart's unit can get the flaming banner. The only way would be to include a BSB with it in the unit of huntsmen. Not sure if that's advisable. Please correct me if I'm wrong, cause I really hope I am, as I rate Markus Wulfhart pretty low right now.

Whoops no your entirely right. My bad I was thinking ancestral heirloom rule which is gone.

Now a bsb in a unit of archers! You see I was toying around with multiple witch hunters in a unit of archers too.

That would be a crazy, I might have to try it out thanks for the idea.

[BEARO]

Do any of you guys plan on taking IC Knights or Reiksguard Knights? If so, how big would you take them?

[Tuttivillus]

I do. Both. I see Reiksguard 12men incl. char. or 6/8 in smaller games. The other some 6/8 men strong.

[Jerry]

Do any of you guys plan on taking IC Knights or Reiksguard Knights? If so, how big would you take them?

Personally I don't find it necessary going from S5 to S6 as for Reiksguard Knights I can see them being fielded in conga lines of 5. Cheap and very durable stubborn tarpit unit, best deathstar counter ever.

[BEARO]

Personally I don't find it necessary going from S5 to S6 as for Reiksguard Knights I can see them being fielded in conga lines of 5. Cheap and very durable stubborn tarpit unit, best deathstar counter ever.

I'm asking because I just made up a army list that looks like this:

2491

LORDS:
General (Knight, Stubborn, Dawnstone) = 198
Lv.4 Wizard Lord (Dispel Scroll) = 200

HEROES:
Warrior Priest (HA, Shield) = 69
Warrior Priest (HA, Shield) = 69
Captain (BSB, FPA, EShield, 4+ Ward) = 141

CORE:
43x Halberdiers (FC) = 288
11x IC Knights (FC, Steel Standard) = 340

SPECIAL:
37x Great Swords (FC, Discipline) = 452
12x Reiksguard (FC, Eternal Flame) = 364
Great Cannon = 120
Great Cannon = 120

RARE:
Celestial Hurricanum = 130

It has 1 big block of Stubborn on 9 Great Swords, a unit of Stubborn 9 Knights and a unit of Stubborn 8 Reiksguard.

That's a lot of Stubborn out there :>

[RTGamer]

I was thinking of units of 5 Reiksguard with a Champion as bullets to hold things up for a turn or 2 so you can counter with DemiG's.

[Tuttivillus]

I would split one knight unit in half.

[GodlessM]

This is a tactics forum. We are discussing unit choices. Wulfhart should never be taken as there is absolutely no reason to. Even if our army didn't have cannons I still wouldn't take him.

The key term being in bold above. You have the uncanny ability to try and revolve everything around yourself and your own opinion as if it is all that matters. Regarding Wulfhart, I wouldn't take him either but saying there is absolutely no reason to take him is *******. Even if it is as simple as Ranald painted a nice model of him, that is good enough a reason, and the point of this thread is for those like Ranald to figure out the best way to use such models. You really need to learn that this is a game (i.e. something done for fun), and that until you stop acting like your own overly-competitive nature is the key to the world, very few people are going to take you seriously on here, because they simply won't feel any repect from you and thus won't respect you.

For the record, I am a competitive gamer and regualrly attend tournaments. I make hard lists, albeit not always 100% broken, but don't take the likes of Wulfhart, Flags or Mortars in my lists. I do however acknowledge that while I play like that, that is because that's how my group plays. We don't however act like a-holes and we do acknowledge the most important thing; that games are about fun. As such, I also acknowledge that there is more than one way to play Warhammer, and that everybody's way of play is valid. There is no such thing as 'absolutely no reason' in Warhammer.

While I think everyone has a right to voice their opinion, I think other's would join me at this rate is asking you to either contribute properly to topics here rather than tell everyone to be like you, or don't waste our time or yours (after all, why post if nobody will listen?)

[Jerry]

For the record, I am a competitive gamer and regualrly attend tournaments. I make hard lists, albeit not always 100% broken, but don't take the likes of Wulfhart, Flags or Mortars in my lists. I do however acknowledge that while I play like that, that is because that's how my group plays. We don't however act like a-holes and we do acknowledge the most important thing; that games are about fun. As such, I also acknowledge that there is more than one way to play Warhammer, and that everybody's way of play is valid. There is no such thing as 'absolutely no reason' in Warhammer.

Please enlighten us. The hardest list I can make with empire pales in comparison to even the cookie cutter builds of other armies namely skaven, dark elves, daemons and ogres.

Also, there's too much " I'm going to take X unit anyway because I like it and there's more to warhammer than winning" in this tactica thread which should all be about min-maxing and absolutely winning. If you want to talk about the other aspects of warhammer do so in the background/general discussion part please. I'm sure there are others like myself who come to the tactica thread to see the golden cheese combos and absolute dirtiest tactics available in order to win.