8th Edition 2012 book Empire Tactica

[Demoulius]

Teclis is cheesy but only because he also has the extra PD, extra DD, and the kill-your-spell scroll on top of the doubles (on a successful casting). Book Archamge on the other hand is far from it, considering he is a sinch to kill. He has to meet the casting value too (like Teclis), which usually results in you getting maybe one spell more than normal off, or no extra but forcing your oppoennt into throwing his dice into certain spells because you IF'ed the one he wanted to stop. In either case, a Book Mage is your definition of cheese, I'd love to hear the word you invented for Skaven, particularly the double Seer, double Hellpit variety.

Dont think a book mage is any harder to kill then Teclis is... Theyre not exactly combat monsters That said im sure there are worse things to face then book mages or Teclis. Doesent make it a less powerfull combo though.

On another note, I dont consider a very powerfull choice cheesy, sorry if I gave that impression (and looking back I probably did. Let the internetz drag me along there...) because quite frankly where would the name calling stop? Do think its bad design though if a character model is so powerfull most armies take him. Not saying most HE players do but the forum tends to give that impression

Moving the discussion back to our own armybook, what would be the best way to gear a captasus? Took a look at the pointcost and theyre pretty cheap! They also get 3 wounds from the pegasus

For 135 points you can get: Captain, full plate, shield, lance and riding a pegasus with iron-hard hooves and swift as the wind in a flank or when hunting things like skinks I think there isent much more that he needs!

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Sorry to side track the topic of convo but was thinking of testing a Captasus but was wondering do you guys have any suggestions on the Pegasus model? do any of the other model companies like Scribor make any decent version bar the GW one?

You could always use the Bretonnian one. Hey, someone had to say it!

[Tuttivillus]

You could always use the Bretonnian one. Hey, someone had to say it!

I second that. I did mine from plastic brettonnian one and Imperial Knight. It's ok.

[Catferret]

I'm sure I'd seen a really nice conversion using the Empire General horse and the Bretonnian Pegasus. Can't for the life of me find pictures of it now though.

[bad dice]

He did not say any of that, bad dice. He pointed out that 16 Spear Elves with mind razor will walk over the STank as if it wasn't there, not that "a horde could deal with it". In fact, he said "this is not even a horde". Spineys example was a reply and convincing rebuttal to the statement that the STank is still the ideal tarpit against HE. May I suggest you take some time to think your reply and what has actually been posted through for a second the next time? Your shoddy spelling appears to mirror your hasty overall approach in that post.



No. The point is that 140 something points will auto-kill it in one round.

Yea you are right i totaly misread that so he 's got a point . I think the point still stands . In facht i think its even more of a point now 16 speare elves is excetctly optimal in fact its wierd who fields a 4x 4 unit in 8th. ALso do not forget that that spell came from a 200+ point moddel so it still a lot of points invested and ignoring the rest of the battle . Also 16 elves is wierd you would expect that the ST has a better change of charging them then they it. And 16 elves whit no mindrazor is just going te get run over by a STank in one turn.Like it has been said before every thing has its counter but calling the STank bad against highelves for this just seems silly

[IceTea]

Thanks for the info on demygryph knights, i havent had the chance to test them yet but will hopefully be able to test them next weekend.

What is the norm of witch hunters, are they worth the points?

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Yea you are right i totaly misread that so he 's got a point . I think the point still stands . In facht i think its even more of a point now 16 speare elves is excetctly optimal in fact its wierd who fields a 4x 4 unit in 8th.

Well, the unit could be any size you want. Its size is not relevant. With a 50 mm base, there will be 4 models in base contact and 4 behind. These models could be part of a unit of 25 or 30 Spearelves, or perhaps a much larger unit that has previously suffered losses.

I do see a lot of L4 Shadow + L1 Metal Elves. Okay, that's partly down to tailoring against me but still I would not expect a STank to live very long.

ALso do not forget that that spell came from a 200+ point moddel so it still a lot of points invested and ignoring the rest of the battle .

Not at all. A wizard will always be present, it is not included simply to deal with a STank, or to let Spearelves kill it. What's more, who says your opponent is ignoring the rest of the battle? He IS going to cast stuff, and very few spells affect the whole battle, so you could use that arument everytime a wizard casts something. Would you shoot your Helblaster at Swordmasters? Then you're 120-185 point model is ignoring the rest of the battle...you see that this holds no water.

Also 16 elves is wierd you would expect that the ST has a better change of charging them then they it.

There is no reason to assume that the slower unit has a better chance of charging, bad dice. Even with 3 dice, the STank only moves 10.5" on average. That's slower than M4 infantry, and Elves are not M4.

[bad dice]

Well, the unit could be any size you want. Its size is not relevant. With a 50 mm base, there will be 4 models in base contact and 4 behind. These models could be part of a unit of 25 or 30 Spearelves, or perhaps a much larger unit that has previously suffered losses.

I do see a lot of L4 Shadow + L1 Metal Elves. Okay, that's partly down to tailoring against me but still I would not expect a STank to live very long.



Not at all. A wizard will always be present, it is not included simply to deal with a STank, or to let Spearelves kill it. What's more, who says your opponent is ignoring the rest of the battle? He IS going to cast stuff, and very few spells affect the whole battle, so you could use that arument everytime a wizard casts something. Would you shoot your Helblaster at Swordmasters? Then you're 120-185 point model is ignoring the rest of the battle...you see that this holds no water.


Tere is no reason to assume that the slower unit has a better chance of charging, bad dice. Even with 3 dice, the STank only moves 10.5" on average. That's slower than M4 infantry, and Elves are not M4.

Yes well you made the point for your self didn't you
Assuming that the wizzards is alwasy present and that he is going to cast stuff is also why the whole argument holds no water beyond the point that it is a good way to take the tank down. Cause while the spearelves and wizzard are part of the elf army the Stank is part of the empire army.
Who knows if it ever comes to this point maby the shadow wizzard did not roll the spell maby he died to some knights. You will never know. The same goes for charging you are right that the elves might have a bid of a lead on avarge charge distance here but that does not mean you can assume that they can charge just as much as I cant assume that the Stank will charge.

There are two senarios
1) the elves charge in and get the spells of the Stank dies (yea elves)
2) the Stank charges in and tarpits the unit for a turn (yea empire

Both senarios are just as likely. In fact the second scenario is a bit more likely cause it just needs the tank to charge
While the first needs a lot of factors (aka a charge a spell avarge to hit and to wound rolls)

The points is the Stank is one of the best tarpits in the game and yes the spear elves will kill it whit mindrazor but that does not make it bad.

[jtrowell]

Sorry to side track the topic of convo but was thinking of testing a Captasus but was wondering do you guys have any suggestions on the Pegasus model? do any of the other model companies like Scribor make any decent version bar the GW one?

The usual convertion is just buying a pegasus bretonnian knight, replacing the knight with its puny chainmail armor with an imperial one or some similar convertion. There might be one or two lys flower that you will have to cut or file on the pegasus, add some imperial heraldy on the barding, and voila.

If you pin or magnetize the rider, you could even use the pegasus with several configurations, for exemple depending on if you want to take a lance or a magic weapon, or if you want to include a pistol. Of course this could also be done by magnetising the weapons themselves instead, depending on your preferences.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Yes well you made the point for your self didn't you
Assuming that the wizzards is alwasy present and that he is going to cast stuff is also why the whole argument holds no water beyond the point that it is a good way to take the tank down. Cause while the spearelves and wizzard are part of the elf army the Stank is part of the empire army.
Who knows if it ever comes to this point maby the shadow wizzard did not roll the spell maby he died to some knights. You will never know. The same goes for charging you are right that the elves might have a bid of a lead on avarge charge distance here but that does not mean you can assume that they can charge just as much as I cant assume that the Stank will charge.

I'm trying to make the point as neutrally as possible. When I say that mindrazored Spearelves will easily deal with a STank, I say that on the assumption that they have taken Shadow, an L4, Spearelves and that either side charged the other and so on. Whether this is likely or not is of course down to more factors than I could ever name. This is something every player has to decide for himself.

Assuming that the enemy wizard is already dead makes no sense because it is arbitrary. Perhaps your STank is already dead. This isn't part of the scenario, and we can only ever look at particular, more or less well-defined scenarios. Theory and practice, if you will. However, any HE player who wants a certain spell will get it; he only needs to spend some points on the Staff of Saphery. Mind razor is also an excellent spell to take when one fields Spearelves.

1) the elves charge in and get the spells of the Stank dies (yea elves)
2) the Stank charges in and tarpits the unit for a turn (yea empire

Both senarios are just as likely. In fact the second scenario is a bit more likely cause it just needs the tank to charge
While the first needs a lot of factors (aka a charge a spell avarge to hit and to wound rolls)

The problem with this line of reasoning is that most of the factors you mention are easily overcome: Elves are faster. They can get that spell at their leisure. They can cast spells with no chance to dispell very easily. They will hit; rolling average is so close to 100 percent hits it isn't funny. You also cannot base your approach on bad rolls on your opponent's part.

The points is the Stank is one of the best tarpits in the game and yes the spear elves will kill it whit mindrazor but that does not make it bad.

[/quote]

Nobody said it was bad. The debate started because someone said that having to hit the STank makes up for its toughness reduction. It's only natural that someone will jump in and outline scenarios in which this isn't the case. Players need to be aware of possibilities, even though some might be rare or obvious, that's all.

[bad dice]

They will hit; rolling average is so close to 100 percent hits it isn't funny. You also cannot base your approach on bad rolls on your opponent's part.

I got to agree whit most of what your said of course. But this is just bull. Its not that I am basing my approaching on my opponents bad luck.
I am pointing out that you are approaching it on rolling average. Sure the chance on all those things (getting the spell, getting enoug pd, getting it Cast, hitting wounding) are about 80% or better (specially getting it cast) but its a string of things so you are far form succeeding 100% of the time or even 80% of the time.
The fact is that the elves have to succeed at a whole string of likely things, but the ST just has to do two things right (aka get the steam points and close the gap) and both these things are likely.


The whole point I am trying to make is that the whole elves will own the steam tank thing. It is very specific.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I got to agree whit most of what your said of course. But this is just bull. Its not that I am basing my approaching on my opponents bad luck. I am pointing out that you are approaching it on rolling average.

Precisely. There is no other logical way of approaching it. Like it or not, we've got to assume averages.

Please don't get me wrong, I do not completely disagree with you. Any combination of units, a unit and magic, shooting and combat and so on always has an inbuilt fail factor.

[bad dice]

Let me end this by just pointing out that average is not the same as likely

a roll on a 2d6 is average 7
passing a ld 7 test is not likely (50% change of failure)
passing a ld 10 test is likely .(17% change of failure)

Now the changes to hit and to wound in your example are a lot better. But in setting up scenarios for play based on averages over a string of things one sets oneself up for failure.
To go off topic abit. Back in the day privateer press would run puzzels based on play situations in the NQ. If one would try the tactics in those puzzles for real you would probably lose a lot of games cause they where based on strings of up to 10 average rolls. And if just one of them would fail the whole thing would fall apart. The changes of sucses in those where a lot closer to 0% then 100%

[Private_SeeD]

The usual convertion is just buying a pegasus bretonnian knight, replacing the knight with its puny chainmail armor with an imperial one or some similar convertion. There might be one or two lys flower that you will have to cut or file on the pegasus, add some imperial heraldy on the barding, and voila.

If you pin or magnetize the rider, you could even use the pegasus with several configurations, for exemple depending on if you want to take a lance or a magic weapon, or if you want to include a pistol. Of course this could also be done by magnetising the weapons themselves instead, depending on your preferences.

thanks for the advice, I already have a pre-made Empire General and the Bretonnia's pegasus knights and that too expensive either.

[Spiney Norman]

Not where I come from. Where I come (a) we don't play special characters, and (b) High Elf player actually use good mage builds. All of that is neglecting the fact that Life is better for High Elves in most armies, and there's no guarantee that you will roll Mindrazor and reach the casting value.

Interesting, most high and dark elf armies that I see always use shadows because it's hard to get the best out of life unless you are a lore master, and to be honest, with the banner of sorc at their disposal high elves will get Mindrazor off more times than not when they need to anyway, the fact that they have the tool to guarantee an IF is just the icing on the cake.

well there is the problem no shadow magic.

But serriusly i'ts nice of Norman to point out that a horde of 40 spear elfs whit a mind razor on it could kill a steam tank.

So you mean that the 400+ point unit whit magic support could take on the steamtank.
Thats totaly true but one does wonder what else those 40 elves could have been doing and where that spell could have been used otherwise.

But indeed the best case senario and totaly not considering what else could be going on does indeed make the Stank look pretty bad.

Then again those 40 elves are going to die to my 6 pigion bombs and 2 mortars cause well if where talking best case hhhhm.

Actually the spearman unit would only need 20 elves left after impact hits, so 25 in 5x5 would easily do it. High elf spears fight in 4 ranks without hoarding.

Also two mortars is a little unlikely, I thought we were talking about competitive lists, not to mention the chance of a mortar missing 25 elves completely.

The point remains that high elves are one of, if not the best equipped army to deal with a steam tank in combat.

[Frogdeath]

Okay ladys and gents have just joined warseer, but have been following this thread for a while. Would interested too know what you all think of a tamurkhan esque empire army??
- Leitpold the black as general (well he has too be)
- naked ME (for artilley re-rolls and BS)
- Possibly Jubal Falk (for Nuln Ironsides)
- BW using lore of death
- BSB, banner of discipline, full plate, sheild
- Edvarrd van der kraal


-IC knights block of 10
-40 swordsmen (manaans blades - stubborn with edvarrd in unit and fear causing with +1 to charge, pursue and fall back range)
two 10 man detachments of halberdiers
-20 man block of Nuln Ironsides???? (essentially heavy armored handgunners with re-rolls to hit on rolls of a 1 with jubal in the unit) with either a HLR or RH
two 10 man detachments of handgunners

unit of reiksguard knights led by leitpold (which means they get the extra attacks rule)
3xDGK (undecided on halberds or not)
GC
Mortar

HVG
Hurricanum

Any thoughts on additions/changes etc I have quite a lot of empire minis so changes are plausible.

[Frogdeath]

oh and also not forgetting the 6 man unit of Ironguts with Dragonhide banner (re-rolls to hit, to wound and impact hits i think of 1?? plus ASL aura

[GodlessM]

I have Tamurkhan and I see no rules that allows you to take Ogre Kingdoms as part of an Empire army, and there is certainly no such rule in the BRB, or either army book, so I really have no idea what you are talking about.

[Rhaivaen]

- Leitpold the black as general (well he has too be)
- Edvarrd van der kraal

Leitpold is a cool model, I want him regardless of rules for a mounted hero/ general.
Vd. Kraal sounds to dutch/ Nederlands to me to be good, lol. (I am a Nederlander)

[Walls]

I have Tamurkhan and I see no rules that allows you to take Ogre Kingdoms as part of an Empire army, and there is certainly no such rule in the BRB, or either army book, so I really have no idea what you are talking about.

It's one of Lietpolds special rules as a mercenary general.