8th Edition 2012 book Empire Tactica

[Wesser]

Well someone clearly over-estimates the importance of their own opinion; that, or you somehow managed to not read nearly the entire thread. This thread has been mostly positive and there have been some good results. The majority who have played with the book like it; that's a fact unless we are suddenly counting silent minorities. Comparing to a broken and underpriced entry in another book doesn't do much for an argument either.

The book has plenty of bad design flaws in it, but it competes and that's enough for me. I'm currently at a 50% success ratio, and to me that is the hallmark of a balanced army.

Myeah

Those design flaws though are like finding blotches of semen on Mona Lisa. It may be masterpiece, but those blotches can just ruin it all...

I have a 100% success rate after a handful of games, but I've been absurdly lucky in all of them so far, the waraltar/arch lector saving my romp again and again.

Even with warrior priests and detachments I'm finding it very hard to find match-ups aside from goblins where my poor state troops arent just massacred. My enemies have stopped respecting them entirely and gone over to grumble at my cavalry...

[Asuryan's Spear]

Myeah

Those design flaws though are like finding blotches of semen on Mona Lisa. It may be masterpiece, but those blotches can just ruin it all...

I have a 100% success rate after a handful of games, but I've been absurdly lucky in all of them so far, the waraltar/arch lector saving my romp again and again.

Even with warrior priests and detachments I'm finding it very hard to find match-ups aside from goblins where my poor state troops arent just massacred. My enemies have stopped respecting them entirely and gone over to grumble at my cavalry...

I understand your angst i experience it myself. but tbh i've found that state troops are more for holding the enemy in place so their Knightly fellows can charge a flank and hammer home. yes we all hate to see one of our beautifully painted models get chopped down effortlessly but it fits thematically to have them be toward the lower end of the scale (they are mere men living in an advanced and egalitarian, reletavely, state in a world of magic, monsters and gods. they were never gonna do that well). the major points/efficiency discrepancies are usually with other books, if compared to 8th edition books you'll find they can usually, without magic or buffs, take on their ponts equivalent

[Walls]

There ARE other armies for the doom and gloomers out there, you know. Hell, I sold my entire space marine army I just bought because I could just NOT come to grips with how it played.

Our troops ARE small and fragile. We're humans. It takes coordination and team work to get the job done. There are no real deathstars or autowins. There are very, very few 1+ options in the book. I am not sure what people want. A roll over army? Something that just mows down everything? That's not really how this army plays.

If you ask me, the new books have really grabbed the essence of how the armies are supposed to work on the field. Orcs and Goblins is a brilliant book. Tomb Kings is awesome. Ogres is awesome. Vampires are a blast. And now Empire is a great, really well balanced book. I honestly got to a point last book where I had to never play the same army or I got bored to death. Steam Tank + War Altar etc super armies got boring as all heck. Now I get to try witch hunters and new chariots and a newer different Altar, new characters, new uses for units. The general complaint seems to be Empire cannot win combat. Warriors can, maybe it's a better fit?

[GodlessM]

This is the thing I don't get. People say the book is hopeless because their unit (a) can't fight the opponent's unit (b). Have people forgotten that the main tactic in Warhammer (Dweller-off doesn't count as a tactic) is attempting to choose your fights. If the justification against a unit was it can't fight such and such another unit then no unit in this game would be worth taking. As for the people saying they get creamed y everything even Gobbos, can ye honestly say the odds were fair and dice were average? Can ye honestly say ye've tried them out and aren't just theory(doom)hammering. In all my games with the Empire so far the Halberdiers have been star players (except for the game where I accidentally blocked them in behind the rest of the army; don't ask). With a Priest inside they hold their own against most. It is an army of synergy, and in my book having the actually put some effort into your battleplan instead of going 'rar-lol-bloodletter-smash' is no crime.

One thing no one can deny though is that a tactics thread is for tactics, not for blanketly stating Empire can't beat anything contrary to results that have been displayed here.

[Glenn87]

hey guys,
a friend of mine has empire, but he has no idea how to start building his list.
We want to start attending tourneys, and they're usually around the 2500 mark.
Can anyone tell me what's good and not? (or possibly a decent list for him)?

thx!!

[Empire - Ulric]

I don't get why people keep whining about Mindrazor, Dwellers and enemy magic dominating them. Sure some games it happens, but most games you can avoid it.

Play a GM with Runefang and OTS, put him with some knights and use some thought in deployment. Send him after your opponents level 4. Use directed attacks. More often than not the enemy Level 4 is dead on turn 2 and you now have magic dominance. Most of the other times he'll only be wounded, but locked in CC and as a result his spell selection is neutered. Then he's dead on turn 3.

End result is you only have to weather a potentially deadly enemy magic phase for 1 turn and maybe not even that depending on the Winds of Magic and if your packing a scroll.

Works in most games. The only time it's not as effective if when your opponents bunker their Level 4 behind their lines, mount it on something flying or it's a Slann. Other than that it works like a charm.

[bad dice]

Myeah

Those design flaws though are like finding blotches of semen on Mona Lisa. It may be masterpiece, but those blotches can just ruin it all...

I have a 100% success rate after a handful of games, but I've been absurdly lucky in all of them so far, the waraltar/arch lector saving my romp again and again.

Even with warrior priests and detachments I'm finding it very hard to find match-ups aside from goblins where my poor state troops arent just massacred. My enemies have stopped respecting them entirely and gone over to grumble at my cavalry...

You know you might be surprised to know this is not wierd. Empire state troops are stat wise one of the worst troops in the game. And have been that way for a long time
I did not respect them in 5th and I sure as hell don't respect them at base value now.
But that is not the point for empire is it. If you want the best troops in the game to fight for your cause go play dwarfs or chaos.

Empire now is the army of buffs no other army can buff up there base units so much as empire.
Sure those hellbadiers are not scary on face value. But add in a wp and a hurricanum and the signutre spell form beasts ( only one buff that needs to be cast btw) And they will kill a lot and I mean a lot of things.

Also empire has some nice ways to deal whit enemy hard points. A St or a unit of rieksgaurd in a 2 wide formation can hold up things for a long time.
Ensuring you can pick your fights and concentrate you buffs on that single critical point.

But if you wanna be all gloom and Doom about it

I would say go right ahead.

[bad dice]

I don't get why people keep whining about Mindrazor, Dwellers and enemy magic dominating them. Sure some games it happens, but most games you can avoid it.

Play a GM with Runefang and OTS, put him with some knights and use some thought in deployment. Send him after your opponents level 4. Use directed attacks. More often than not the enemy Level 4 is dead on turn 2 and you now have magic dominance. Most of the other times he'll only be wounded, but locked in CC and as a result his spell selection is neutered. Then he's dead on turn 3.

End result is you only have to weather a potentially deadly enemy magic phase for 1 turn and maybe not even that depending on the Winds of Magic and if your packing a scroll.

Works in most games. The only time it's not as effective if when your opponents bunker their Level 4 behind their lines, mount it on something flying or it's a Slann. Other than that it works like a charm.

Bit of a double post but i would like to point out that this is a waste of points IMH.
Just forget about the GM and take a unit of Rieksgaurd form them up 2 wide (or 3 depending on if the wizzard is placed on the edge of the unit or not) and head for that wizzard. Now nothing can stop you from attacking him cause you have no character that can be chalanged so you can always direct your attacks at the wizzard. Now the 2 attacks your are going to get at him is obviously not going to kill the wizard in one go. But the stubborn means you can stick in there and wizards in combat can't cast all that much as you already pointed out. Meaning that you are verry likely to kill the wizzard in his turn.

Also you are holding up his army giving your army time to
A) concentrate your fire
B) pick the fights you want.

[Wesser]

You know you might be surprised to know this is not wierd. Empire state troops are stat wise one of the worst troops in the game. And have been that way for a long time
I did not respect them in 5th and I sure as hell don't respect them at base value now.
But that is not the point for empire is it. If you want the best troops in the game to fight for your cause go play dwarfs or chaos.

Empire now is the army of buffs no other army can buff up there base units so much as empire.
Sure those hellbadiers are not scary on face value. But add in a wp and a hurricanum and the signutre spell form beasts ( only one buff that needs to be cast btw) And they will kill a lot and I mean a lot of things.

Also empire has some nice ways to deal whit enemy hard points. A St or a unit of rieksgaurd in a 2 wide formation can hold up things for a long time.
Ensuring you can pick your fights and concentrate you buffs on that single critical point.

But if you wanna be all gloom and Doom about it

I would say go right ahead.

I'd reckon that anything i 1 or 2 wide formations are cheese. Personally I wouldnt wanna play anyone who fielded such.

The problem with state troops is that if you field a unit of 40, you should at least lose 10 to shooting on your way in. Then 10 to striking last in cc. Second round is where your unit collapse, having only done one combat round worth of damage.

A unit of 40 halberdiers complete with WP and detachment easily creeps over 450 pts for a units that is easily dismantled. To give it fighting potential like you want to with spells and hurricanum the cost approaches that of a deathstar in other armies....for a unit that will drop like flies when the fists starts flying. Fighting is best left to knights, tanks and greatswords

[yabbadabba]

hey guys,
a friend of mine has empire, but he has no idea how to start building his list.
We want to start attending tourneys, and they're usually around the 2500 mark.
Can anyone tell me what's good and not? (or possibly a decent list for him)?

thx!!

I'd start a new thread mate, you are more likely to get some good answers.

[FLUEVOG]

Fluevog's Mounted BSB Tactic for Other Cool Kids and Attractive People

So here's a thought - unfortunately I must predicate it with: this is not a 100% fool-proof tactic, guaranteed protection against all armies, the secret to fame and fortune, et al. What if you could use the combined unit rules and varied base sizes of the Empire to protect your BSB from most combats (well, for a little while anyways).

Here's the idea. Field TWO characters on mounts - one of course being the BSB and the other a preferably killy one - and have them join a unit of infantry. They are both side-by-side on one side of the unit. For the sake of this example, we'll say the right side. So it would look like 5 models of infantry, a mounted character, then the BSB. Screening the BSB is a detachment of archers - stretching out further right.

Now this would take some forethought, but anticipate what enemy unit is most likely to charge them and deploy the infantry models wide enough so that, when charged, your opponent must contact all of them and the non-BSB mounted character only in order to satisfy the Charge rule max-models-in-combat requirement. The infantry are on 20s, the horses on 25 x 50s. Your goal is to keep the BSB out of base-to-base contact.

To those thinking "what about a second unit charging?" Well, the detachment of archers protects him - once a charge is declared against them, they accept and contract, drawing the charging unit away from the BSB. Provided the second charger isn't superwide, in which case you'd have been hosed anyway as it would have been likely in your flank as it is. The archers won't hold them forever, but if one of the character's has the Crown of Command or the parent unit is Greatswords, they should be able to stave off the flankers for a turn or two. Plus they can be shooting at light cavalry or other targets as they approach.

Overall, the effect is like the BSB is a breakwater - waves of the enemy crashing left and right while he tries to remain unscathed. Tries.

Pros:
- All the cool kids are doing it
- Mounted BSB gets a nonmagical +2 armorsave, leaving more points for magic items.
- Can get away with taking a magic banner.
- The infantry unit retains rank bonus' longer than a similarly wide unit and its putting out just as many attacks (the killy character's horse counting as a supporting attack) but with less models. I don't think I'm wording that well.
- Satisfies the Rule of Cool and counts as three credits of AP Warhammer Tactics

Cons:
- No Look Out Sir! roll for template weapons - give him a 4+ ward or send in the captasus warmachine hunters.
- Requires some skill and forethought - not the internet 100% sure-win you were looking for.
- Lose out on BSB's attacks in combat

[Walls]

To make the pro even better... the BSB has a 1+ save now. He's allowed to take shields.

[Montegue]

Don't sell massive blocks of Halberds short. They might not be Marauders, but they aren't that far off, and with one or two buffs they are devastating. I'm not talking about 40, more like 60. another 30 man detachment of them, plus characters for hatred and hold the line, and Crown of Command - it's ugly.

[Rhaivaen]

I think the problem between the different tacticians and (my personal feeling about the new book is)
that because the Empire army is slowly being diluted more and more so, with no options given otherwise
to direct the way you want to play, which makes it a "braindead no options kinda feel" to it.
(which might or might not be really true.)

I would prefer to see some of the troops be able to have more armour options, like:

Crossbowmen heavy armour, perhaps even shields.

Halberds, mainstay of the empire army, so should be having the same option imo of heavy armour for a 2 point increase.
Light armour by itself has no value, because most opponent's units have -1 to armour save anyway (the better units anyway).

I think the overall army tactics is being increased, but to the detriment of the individual units options, which do not
per say have anything to do with tactics in general..

my 2 cents anyway

[Lord Solar Plexus]

No offense guys but you know how I hateyour typical overreaction and how it makes me want to reply to put things into perspective. It's like pushing a button. There's One. Single. Guy. who says Doom!, and and you jump and accuse the whole internet of naysaying.

It takes coordination and team work to get the job done.

That can quite often be PC for having to throw double the points at the usual opponent without having double the units or for being as dependant on magic as VC or TK without having more PD. It doesn't take any skill or coordination to roll high or low winds, or to fail or pass a casting value. Throwing die after die at prayers is not team work.

What to me is much more an issue is the fact that there seems to be nobody on the team. People field a unit of Halberdiers and a unit of knights, some crossbows and a detachment in 1,500 points. That doesn't take any coordination, that's an empty mall. Call me a whiner or sure me, Walls, I f***g hate empty malls. Yes, perhaps O&G would be the better army for me...but I do not like their or anyone else's background.

If the justification against a unit was it can't fight such and such another unit then no unit in this game would be worth taking.

What unit do you mean? Nobody followed this line of reasoning with the STank. Someone asserted that having to hit it in combat makes up for it being only T6, to which I pointed out that HE are hardly affected by it, and Spiney pointed out how HE could kill it, that's all. In the same vein as one single doomy poster is completely blown out of all proportions, someone mistakenly thought they had to defend the STank against some kind of personal attack...

As for the people saying they get creamed y everything even Gobbos, can ye honestly say the odds were fair and dice were average?

In your shoes I would be sceptical if anyone said, "Yes, 80 defeats, all fair." I can only speak for myself: The odds were far from always fair, and I clearly remember the instances were I defeated those 300 Slaves. In general though, 40-50 Halberdiers and two mortars had not the slightest chance. 80 percent of the time, they keeled over and died, screw coordination, screw flank charges. These days I have even less units - and now I'm somehow supposed to outflank and rear charge while simultaneously holding up flanks? With what, I ask?

People on these forums, not only on WS, increasingly assume that the block of troops with its detachment will hold up "the enemy" until the DGK have defeated "the enemy" and turn around to flank. Or they assume all prayers to be online. Of course the gravest threats will be dead because cannon, always. My problem is that I have not seen this happen in real life, that's the huge disconnect here.

[Spiney Norman]

Let's not go back to the stank issue, I happen to think the Stank is really good, it's just that someone who didn't have a clue about how it worked was spouting off about how it is great against high elves, which just happened to be entirely false.

It is a concern to me that my Empire army is significantly smaller than it was before the new book came out, and unit for unti doesn't really work any better than it did before. I've had mixed results overall and Empire is still an army I very much enjoy playing.

[Walls]

People are frankly wrong if they think equivalent points of Clanrats are beating Swordsmen. Hell, give Clanrats Spears and they basically are equivalent to our spearmen exactly until a few turns later when they have more numbers thanks to initiative and kill the entire block. Otherwise it's gonna be a draw until we are down to 3 ranks of spearmen. Swordsmen beat Clanrats with shields. Halberds beat Clanrats with anything. My swordsmen regularly beat Night Goblins. Better WS makes all the difference. You hit on 3's, them on 4's. And never underestimate parry. Hell, never underestimate state troops period.

If an army that works for alot of other people isn't working for you it's time to rethink 2 things: How you are playing the army and if the army is for you.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I don't get why people keep whining about Mindrazor, Dwellers and enemy magic dominating them. Sure some games it happens, but most games you can avoid it.

The very same critique as above applies to statements like these: You're seeing ghosts and blowing legitimate tactical comments out of all proportions. Please name a single poster who "whined" about mindrazor or referred to Dwellers on the last half a dozen pages. You can't, end of story.

With that out of the way, assassinating a wizard is a good, if not completely new idea. As it is apparently easily accomplished on turn 2 by "putting some thought into it", surely you're not even taking an L4 anymore. Or did I misunderstand you? Did you mean to imply that Empire is the best wizard assassination army because we can field an unwarded Lord?

If you want the best troops in the game to fight for your cause go play dwarfs or chaos.

Really, bad dice, I do want to be polite but you're not making it much easier. If you prefer weak troops, why don't you go play Goblins or Skellies?

As a matter of fact, we can see an inflation of pseudo-arguments, and it is tiring to say the least having to address them.

Empire now is the army of buffs no other army can buff up there base units so much as empire.
Sure those hellbadiers are not scary on face value. But add in a wp and a hurricanum and the signutre spell form beasts ( only one buff that needs to be cast btw) And they will kill a lot and I mean a lot of things.

You were the one to point out the string of actions and dice rolls needed for Mindrazored Spearelves. Was that just for fun or does your notion that an infrastructure is harder to get going than using innate abilities actually have some merit? Because if it does, and I think that is so, then it applies to everyone. The problem here - and just to make this crystal clear I am not whining, I am pointing out a logical conclusion with direct tactical or pre-battle implications - is that we need all those pillars to be effective. That's simply a factual reminder, and not a reason to "go play Chaos", which, in my most diplomatic voice, is the response of someone who wants to avoid a more serious discussion.

Most people do not see 1-2 wide units as "nice". Using this example just illustrates my point.

[jtrowell]

hey guys,
a friend of mine has empire, but he has no idea how to start building his list.
We want to start attending tourneys, and they're usually around the 2500 mark.
Can anyone tell me what's good and not? (or possibly a decent list for him)?

thx!!

2 bataillons could be a good start:

- 2 canons
- 40 state troops (halberds being the easy choice)
- 16 knights (could make a big unit of 10 and a smaller of 6 if you want to field them all)

An hellblaster + engineer would also be very useful.
An hellstorm can help against hordes and other large units (or a mortar if you're already full for your rare quota).

A steam tank is fun.

Note: the militia kit is a great source of components and bodies for conversions.

By using some parts from the servants of an hellblaster, and a militia body, you can make a great engineer.
There are enough bows to make 10 archers, to use eitheir as hunters, or as 2 5-archers detachments (great as redirectors)

The wizard and general kits are both great addition, and at least one war priest will be useful.

[bad dice]

The very same critique as above applies to statements like these: You're seeing ghosts and blowing legitimate tactical comments out of all proportions. Please name a single poster who "whined" about mindrazor or referred to Dwellers on the last half a dozen pages. You can't, end of story.

With that out of the way, assassinating a wizard is a good, if not completely new idea. As it is apparently easily accomplished on turn 2 by "putting some thought into it", surely you're not even taking an L4 anymore. Or did I misunderstand you? Did you mean to imply that Empire is the best wizard assassination army because we can field an unwarded Lord?



Really, bad dice, I do want to be polite but you're not making it much easier. If you prefer weak troops, why don't you go play Goblins or Skellies?

As a matter of fact, we can see an inflation of pseudo-arguments, and it is tiring to say the least having to address them.



You were the one to point out the string of actions and dice rolls needed for Mindrazored Spearelves. Was that just for fun or does your notion that an infrastructure is harder to get going than using innate abilities actually have some merit? Because if it does, and I think that is so, then it applies to everyone. The problem here - and just to make this crystal clear I am not whining, I am pointing out a logical conclusion with direct tactical or pre-battle implications - is that we need all those pillars to be effective. That's simply a factual reminder, and not a reason to "go play Chaos", which, in my most diplomatic voice, is the response of someone who wants to avoid a more serious discussion.

Most people do not see 1-2 wide units as "nice". Using this example just illustrates my point.

No i think you did not realy get what i ment whit the dwarf or chaos comment.
What i mend was is that there is no merit in complaining about the stats of the troops as thy are. It is what it is an you'll have to live whit it.
A straight up fight is not they way of the empire. Well at least not whit state troops.

Yes a string of things is harder to achieve but here we are talking about 2 things that are totaly in you hands . You either know you have the WP and chariot are close enough or you know they are not. Giving you the choise of engaging or not whit the buffs or whitout them. The two factors are the spell and the charge. Those remain up to chance.

And yes putting units 2 wide isn't nice i just wanted to point out that it can be done.

Then again a lot of other things aint nice either.