8th Edition 2012 book Empire Tactica

[jtrowell]

Can you take a 30 man detchment to a block of 59 guys i tough half was max (aka 29,5)?

The rule for detachments says to round up from what I remenber.

[Hulkster]

This 'Tactics' thread seems to be degenerating.

Essentially people think this army works and they enjoy it. Solar Plexus you do not like the lists you can make with this book, they dont work for you. I was exactly the same way with the Orcs and Goblins Book. I could not make a list I liked. The book is solid and some great lists can be made, but none of them appeal to me or work for me.

I understand where you are coming from but that does not make the list bad, honestly we just need to keep playing with it until we find what works. Synergy is what has always worked for us, now we need to rely(sp?) on it.

Please lets try to concentrate on what works and how to make it work.

In my opinion Demi-Gryphs work best in units of 3. I also think that a unit of 10 or so knights works great in conjunction with Demi-Gryphs. Combine that with a large unit of harlberdiers I think you are onto a winner.

The stumbling block for me is that I am no longer sure Greatswords are for me. You can nearly buy twice as many halberdiers as you can greatswords.

What do you guys think?

[Asuryan's Spear]

I'm with you on the greatsword front. at 11 points a pop WS 4 T3 4+ ASL is just too vulnerable to anything with str 3+. in my experience unless you buy 60 or so (enough to get at least 100 Halberdiers) you'll be losing most rounds as you are cut down relatively easily. for the extra 5 points over Halberdiers you get stubborn, +1 WS and S, Ld 8 but you strike last which is the key point. personnally i prefer Halberdiers because with a hurricanum they pretty much hit everything better and at I3 which seeing as i personally play alot of OnG. also with nearly twice the models they are steadfast against most thngs for longer, negating the stubborn of the greatswords

[Lord Solar Plexus]

This 'Tactics' thread seems to be degenerating.

You are invited to contribute more tactics instead of restarting a discussion that you feel is not appropriate but I'm most definitively not going to stand idly by when you try to lay the blame for that on my doorstep. I have pointed out very concrete and realistic problems. I politely suggest you ask Empire-Ulric not to retort to that with "Whining people", Walls not to reply with "Get a new hobby, I won't talk to you" or to refrain from name-calling ("Chicken Little"). Clearly you think that these contributions further the thread or are not detrimental, or you would not have addressed me instead.

I understand where you are coming from but that does not make the list bad, honestly we just need to keep playing with it until we find what works. Synergy is what has always worked for us, now we need to rely(sp?) on it.

I don't think you truly understand where I am coming from, Hulkster, and I do not say that to fuel the flames or make you mad at me as well. I think understanding the premises is eminently tactical, even if you disagree. First of all, what may or may not have worked in the past has little bearing on the present especially when things change. Of course our units will continue to benefit from hatred, they will often hit better or profit from a prayer or two, and in such situations it is quite likely that your standard 40-50 Halberdiers will win fights and reverse tables all over the place.

The problem with this is that it relies on the assumption that a lot of pieces come together seamlessly. We all need to realize how much we depend on these boosts and buffs and I believe most of us have already realized that. What many overlook or ignore though is how expensive this synergy is compared not to the past but to many of the factions we'll meet, and how many hard counters there are to these important pillars. When I compare the cost of a "synergetic brigade" of 50 Halbs, FC, detachment of 20, a WP and a wagon (~650 p) to what you can get from old and new books, I do not see any reason to just gloss over it and sing a Hosianna. There's nothing tactical about such behaviour, and neither is it conducive to blather something about "just putting some thought into it". It is however quite tactical to consequently think it through when the sh... hits the fan. What happens if your 69 point WP is killed? What happens if your 5+ Sv buggy is killed? and so on. Is that negativity?!?

When in addition to those assumptions I see people stack even more assumptions on top ("Then we flank with the Knights" "Warmachines keep the rest in check/honest") it becomes outright absurd. Please explain to me how two units can regularly outflank two or three or even an unknown number of others. Of course it happens but it is so rare that counting on it is sheer folly.

The stumbling block for me is that I am no longer sure Greatswords are for me. You can nearly buy twice as many halberdiers as you can greatswords.

What do you guys think?

Why would you think that when Greatswords have become relatively cheaper (since before you could not nearly but actually buy twice as many Halbs)?

[Shizzbam]

Pardon me if this has already been discussed but I couldn't find it when I searched the thread.

I'm looking at changing around my wizards. Currently I've been using a Level 4 Beasts wizard and I've had success with that, but I'm thinking he could easily achieve his main role (putting Wildform on my Halberdiers and occassionally Savage Beast on my Grand Master) could be achieved by a Level 1/2.

So I'm thinking of downgrading my Beasts wizard to that and taking another level 4. I'd love to play Death (the model is lovely) but honestly I've never been near it and wouldn't know where to begin using it. Has anyone used a Level 4 Death wizard? If so, what have you used him for? Other than character sniping and Purple Sun I see little reason to take one over a Shadows or Life level 4. Can anyone justify a death wizard for me?

What wizards do you guys use and why? I'd love to see some justification for wizards beyond the usual Shadow/Life/Light.

[bad dice]

I played death and i must say i dont like it whit empire.
Death is great in a army that already has great troops but doesnt realy want to face enemy charcters (like darkelves or ogres)
OR realy needs to dominate the magic fase (like vampire counts)
Empire not so much sure its nice to kill of those enemy wizzards but when your troops get run over because you can't buff them and you did not get a change to reduce the numbers of the enemy then its all for nothing


I like shadow a lot whit empire.
Nice debuffs and nice buffs.

[Walls]

Yeah I really don't find death works well with Empire, this book or the old one. It's much more a character assassination lore and our very lowly troops need buffs. However, it might be worth playing with a bit to see. The Hurricanum, War Altar, Priests give some decent buffs of their own. Rerolls to hit and wound is nearly as good or better then Wyssans. Knocking out key characters: Wizards, generals, BSB's and taking down their command structure isn't a bad thing. Team this with a witch hunter and it's definitely an idea to explore.

As for myself I really prefer light for Empire. All the spells seem to mesh really well with the army. I like Fire as well but more in a secondary role. I thought about Beasts but only Wyssans really matters so if you have the points, a scroll caddy Wildform caster is a good plan.

I don't take Shadow. Everyone else does everywhere... it gets boring.

[Shizzbam]

At the moment I'm edging towards the idea of a level 4 Light with a level 1 scroll-caddy Beasts caster. At the moment I can't bring myself to part from my Wildform caster. Him combined with my Hurricanum and a warrior priest makes my Halberdier horde hit with 40 Str 5 attacks hitting most things on 3's with a re-roll and re-rolling to wound (not to mention T4). I think tossing in a buff from a Light wizard would make them even more scary than they've already proven to be.

[Hulkster]

You are invited to contribute more tactics instead of restarting a discussion that you feel is not appropriate but I'm most definitively not going to stand idly by when you try to lay the blame for that on my doorstep. I have pointed out very concrete and realistic problems. I politely suggest you ask Empire-Ulric not to retort to that with "Whining people", Walls not to reply with "Get a new hobby, I won't talk to you" or to refrain from name-calling ("Chicken Little"). Clearly you think that these contributions further the thread or are not detrimental, or you would not have addressed me instead.



I don't think you truly understand where I am coming from, Hulkster, and I do not say that to fuel the flames or make you mad at me as well. I think understanding the premises is eminently tactical, even if you disagree. First of all, what may or may not have worked in the past has little bearing on the present especially when things change. Of course our units will continue to benefit from hatred, they will often hit better or profit from a prayer or two, and in such situations it is quite likely that your standard 40-50 Halberdiers will win fights and reverse tables all over the place.

The problem with this is that it relies on the assumption that a lot of pieces come together seamlessly. We all need to realize how much we depend on these boosts and buffs and I believe most of us have already realized that. What many overlook or ignore though is how expensive this synergy is compared not to the past but to many of the factions we'll meet, and how many hard counters there are to these important pillars. When I compare the cost of a "synergetic brigade" of 50 Halbs, FC, detachment of 20, a WP and a wagon (~650 p) to what you can get from old and new books, I do not see any reason to just gloss over it and sing a Hosianna. There's nothing tactical about such behaviour, and neither is it conducive to blather something about "just putting some thought into it". It is however quite tactical to consequently think it through when the sh... hits the fan. What happens if your 69 point WP is killed? What happens if your 5+ Sv buggy is killed? and so on. Is that negativity?!?

When in addition to those assumptions I see people stack even more assumptions on top ("Then we flank with the Knights" "Warmachines keep the rest in check/honest") it becomes outright absurd. Please explain to me how two units can regularly outflank two or three or even an unknown number of others. Of course it happens but it is so rare that counting on it is sheer folly.



Why would you think that when Greatswords have become relatively cheaper (since before you could not nearly but actually buy twice as many Halbs)?

I did not mean to imply that this was yours, or any one persons fault. However, reading it back that is exactly how it reads so I apologise.

I think I do understand you, but where I think the confusion comes from is that you are worried about it working together,it is not as simple as some people make out. I agree. But you can work things to your advantage and I think the list creation comes from trying to work in these balances. We will struggle against a lot of the 7th ed books until they get new books. I just pray the increase marauders points cost as well.

I mentioned great swords because I never used them in my lists using the previous book in 8th, but I started to use them now with the price drop. But I think they may be a false economy, hence my question.

[Shizzbam]

I'm interested in whether Greatswords are worth it too. I'm looking at building a tarpit for my army now I've replaced my Crown of Command General in my Knights with a Runefang weilding Grand Master. 30-40Greatswords with a Battle Standard seem like a good idea but I've seen plenty of complaints. I've also looked at Flagellants in the same numbers, but again hear complaints. Is either unit worth it to tarpit these days? Or should I just ignore both, be boring and take a big ol' unit of Spearmen with some Swordsmen?

[Tuttivillus]

Greatswords are fine choice IMO still. Argument that You can get twice as many halberds is and was valid with previous book also. But for tarpitting and winning they are ok. I use them with swordsmen detachment so they can hold at least two units on stubborn there. Now, I stick there a GotE in fighting mode with high armour and ward and I'm very proud of the job they do. Thanks to hurricanium I save points on warrior priests because they both(GS and Swords.) hit now on 3's or even 2's. Saved points go to WH for magic res. which is needed, because enemy will go magic heavy on those chaps. 4+ ASv. is also good, i like it a lot, it serves me well. Hitting last with a step-up as a flaw is little bit looking a hole in a good boat. Ask Yourself where does our troops do not strike last with 3Ini.

[SteelTitan]

In that light, how mandatory is the Hurricanum? It keeps coming back, whether you discuss Greatswords or Halbediers.

And even though it is relatively cheap, there's a reason people don't take Monsters...why then risk it with a Hurricanum?

[Morax]

In that light, how mandatory is the Hurricanum? It keeps coming back, whether you discuss Greatswords or Halbediers.

This is part of a larger topic. The base question is, "How mandatory are designated points to buff units?" The answer to that one is extremely. Either it is warrior priests, archlectors, wizard lords, or the buff wagons, something is needed to raise the basic troop above it's starting capabilities. That's just how this book was designed, the whole is greater than it's parts. I think the key will be finding what a proper balance is between boots on the ground and things to buff them. Either extreme here will likely not work well in all situations but can surprise the best of opponents. I'll work on a couple of lists that will be extremes to the max that will shock all but the most flexable generals out there.

[Walls]

I am starting to think, with Hold the Line, that the Crown of Command and even Stubborn units are less important. You roll 3 dice, usually with a reroll. That has to equate to be pretty good odds of passing, even with Insane Courage.

[Tuttivillus]

Hurricanium is not mandatory. It's convenient. It can give a nice buff to a couple of units with a relatively low cost. It goes behind the lines, so enemy can have a problem with targeting it with a cannon, and it is well protected from combat, although You can use it to swing the balance with impact hits. Warrior priests are a bit squishy if deployed in infantry. One can argue that at least attacks won't go to the unit, but if One loose him, his troops will fight like a naked state trooper do - poorly. As too question with how many buffs is too many, it's like with artillery. Too many can kill You instead of enemy. I came to conclusion that WP's + Hurricanium is a bit too much for me. And I had a battle when I lost 2WP's AND a hurricanium in a melee in one round. And guess what happened.

Now , for me Waltar and hurricanium for line support. WP's in cavalry, here at least they are better protected and You can use points on something more usefull than Magic Armour.

[Mandragola]

The hurricanum is a good all-rounder. As well as the +1 bubble you also get a power dice and a good bound spell to use against enemy blocks (most of the time). You can even drive it into chaff if it comes after your war machines.

[pippin_nl]

I have tried Death Magic in my last big national tournament. The idea was to use Doom & Darkness to break infantry units with my DG/IC and Reiksguard knights (worked well versus O&G). Soulblight is also a good debuff for your halberdiers. Character assassination is a nice bonus; I did kill one Stegadon with Spirit Leech and a Herald of Tzeentch. In the end I easily beat O&G (not a very good player), drew versus Lizardmen (top player) and drew versus Khorne Daemons (with Tzeentch heralds, flamers and Fiends) (good player).

[Gradek]

So, how many points to spend on "buffs". I am finding that in my lists, I really do not have room for many and would rather have other things instead (ie more hellbalsters/stanks instead of mobiles or more units/troops instead of WP). I keep thinking that the mobiles are much better off when you play a defensive/gunline that a forward moving list, since they can have a hard time keeping up.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I did not mean to imply that this was yours, or any one persons fault. However, reading it back that is exactly how it reads so I apologise.

Never mind, no offence taken, case closed.

----
Run roughshod over a High Elf army with 5 Tiranoc and 4 Lions Club Chariots tonight. Not the best test in the world especially when Reichsguard get the jump on chariots but half my army sat on the sidelines and watched the spectacle, so pretty cool nonetheless.

I had a unit of 50 Spears, AL + CoC and mounted BSB behind with 2*15 Swordsmen detachments in the centre, 40 Halberds, STank and Outriders on the left, 2*5 Reichsguard on the right and a Lumi behind. STank, detachments and Knights all killed chariots, Outriders killed an Eagle, panic made a unit of Sea Guard + two mages (one of them the General) flee, and my L4 crushed another 3 chariots with a Comet.

[Private_SeeD]

I also played my cousins HE and took your guys advice and used Heavens, and I got all the direct damage spells and the re-roll 6's one. Chain lightning was awesome since his units were close together... Also helped that my cannon sniped his lvl 3 Mage on turn 2


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