Hmm, has anyone tested the HLR on outriders?
Hmm, has anyone tested the HLR on outriders?
no, as there is not an option anymore
Finecast is like a watch from Armani - very expensive and waterproof.
Is not Thunder Stomp itself a special rule? If that is your argument then Thunder Stomp can not be allowed to let you Thunder Stomp, as being able to Thunder Stomp benefits Thunder Stomp, therefore you can't use the Thunder Stomp rule in conjunction with Thunder Stomping to Thunder Stomp. ~Aglemar
Here is what I actually said "The problem is when those boys get put on the field 40 or more strong" and "The idea that you must have an equally strong unit of your own to fight it is so tactically limiting..." Which, plainly and very obviously is the exact opposite of what you are pretending I said. As in, you pretended I said Chaos Warriors are always taken in groups of 40, when I was actually telling you it is very simplistic to only consider Chaos Warriors are only ever taken in groups of 20 as per the mathammer example given. As in, you pretended I said strong combat units limit your tactical flexibility, when I actually said limiting your thinking so that the only way of defeating strong combat units was with an even stronger combat unit of your own was very limited thinking, and that other options can also be considered.
At this point, I really have to wonder why you're acting so poorly over a debate on some mathammer that you didn't even come up with? I mean, seriously, ignoring my post, and then just making up stuff you like to think I said, what are you playing at? I've seen you post a lot of reasonable, good stuff on this forum (in fact your advice was one of the things that tipped me over into registering), and yet here you are being completely disingenuous to me, over a really, really trivial issue. What's going on?
I have to say, I'm looking forward to testing out a list in the next few days. Interesting comments here so far.
"A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy."
I think I'll have a politely disagree that its a good example of a strong WoC combat unit. And to make a of really good Combat unit then ... yeah your right I'd have to overcomplicate things. (does that make sense in english )
I certainly haven't disagreed that DGKs could be run a 6 over 2 x 3. I just haven't seen them run at that sized unit yet so can't really comment.
.......... alittle more ....... a little more.
No problem, Frankly.
I don't see how a unit that with up to 32 S5 attacks and a decent save would badly maul everything we could field but a tank is not an example of a strong combat unit. If the only reason is that some faction can field something even stronger or add even more guys, I won't play that game ad nauseam. You are welcome to pick a supposedly better example, some plausible preconditions and run the math on that. Then we could compare numbers instead of personal impressions about what is seen out there or not.
First of all, and I'm saying this way after my fit over your last post and as diplomatically as I can, I find your claim to be daft in the light of the things you put into my mouth in said post. Since you did not recognize it, WS being a text forum has apparently little bearing.
1. "The idea that you must have an equally strong unit of your own to fight it is so tactically limiting that I really cannot believe you're making that argument."
Apart from disagreeing with you about the supposed tactical limits, I'm not making that argument. I'm saying it's an option. Could you explain how it is possible to turn "2*3 DGK can sometimes be stronger" into "Everyone must take 6 DGK", Jezbot? Because I really do not understand it when the former statement is what I wrote. Text forum, read it, I'll wait. Post 1037 or so.
2. "[Y]ou can't even make a comment that it's working for you."
Where precisely did I make that comment? In the math?!? Or were you expecting me to make such a comment at a later point in time? I'm saying that the math in some examples shows that 6 DGK can make a good combat unit able to suck up a lot of punishment. That's implicitly always an "on paper" claim with all the usual disclaimers attached. You won't find many posts with all possible if's and when's written out, so just give me the benefit of the doubt.
3. "Or you can split those demigryphs in two units, have three hit the front and three in the flank."
Yes, that is finally something I said (in my post #1037 several pages back. or was it 1059?). Of course you can do that. I even said it could turn out the better option, and I already analyzed the pro's and con's back then.
4. "I mean, are you seriously struggling to find ways to combat mid-size units of Chaos Warriors? Seriously?"
Your imagination IS running wild I'm afraid. A quote, please, and if you are unable to provide one, I'll reserve the right to call you out on these strawmen or to ignore them at my leisure, no offense intended. I don't even play against CW, so it's impossible I could have made such a statement, explicitly or implicitly.
Beg to differ. True, that is what you wrote. However, what does it mean? Quite obviously you believe that the problem of a larger unit of CW is relevant, ergo it must happen often enough to matter. It must even happen often enough that a unit of 6 DGK is never a good idea despite the possibility of receiving additional support, perhaps in the form of those Helblasters you've mentioned later. It's not much of a stretch to assume you mean that almost everyone fields a large unit of CW.Here is what I actually said "The problem is when those boys get put on the field 40 or more strong" and "The idea that you must have an equally strong unit of your own to fight it is so tactically limiting..." Which, plainly and very obviously is the exact opposite of what you are pretending I said.
Perhaps I've accidentally taken this out of context but do you honestly think a third party is going to understand that sentence without a major effort of flipping to and fro if even I have a hard time to understand the problem?As in, you pretended I said strong combat units limit your tactical flexibility, when I actually said limiting your thinking so that the only way of defeating strong combat units was with an even stronger combat unit of your own was very limited thinking, and that other options can also be considered.
6 DGK are a viable option. Nobody says they're a must. Nobody says they're an auto-include, and nobody ever said a word about limiting other options. You're jumping to conclusions no man has ever gone before! "The only way", man, how can you even come up with that out of the blue and then tell me I'm making stuff up...? It truly beggars belief.
Having said all that, let's bury that particular hatchet. Part of my reason to ignore your previous post was that mutual accusations of twisting of words rarely have a winner, are tedious for everyone else and aren't conducive to a good debate. I apologize for my part in it and any unclear or offenisve statements I've made as a kind of olive branch.
Last edited by Lord Solar Plexus; 08-06-2012 at 11:29.
I have 100pts spare in my current list and can't decide what to spend them on its a toss up between a WP or a mage, in my list I already have a lvl 4 and WP in my horde formation of halberdiers with BSB and WH. I have ICK so was thinking that a mounted WP would be more preferable
Do mods even pay attention to this thread?
As a rule of thumb. If you have a larger unit of knights (8+) the 85 points it takes to get a warrior priest, give him heavy armour and a shield, and stick him on a horse, is worthwhile.
"Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason - nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason" Quintus Tertullian
More so then any other unit a knight unit needs a priest. The war altar can easily provide for the rest of the main combat block.
I guess I wasn't very in laying out my argument, but the quote reply quote reply thing likely isn't helping either. I know you aren't claiming everyone must have a 6 strong DMG unit, and I never said otherwise. My argument is about one specific point you made, in which you argued that 6 DMG are better than anything else in the Empire book for taking on strong enemy combat units head to head. I am saying that argument includes an assumption that whatever the best unit in the Empire book for taking on that kind of opposition must be therefore be good in the role. I am saying there is every chance nothing in the Empire book is capable of taking on powerful enemy units head to head.Apart from disagreeing with you about the supposed tactical limits, I'm not making that argument. I'm saying it's an option. Could you explain how it is possible to turn "2*3 DGK can sometimes be stronger" into "Everyone must take 6 DGK", Jezbot? Because I really do not understand it when the former statement is what I wrote. Text forum, read it, I'll wait. Post 1037 or so.
Because 'here is some maths about one match up that gives a slight advantage to this new unit' is very limited, and weak evidence at best. It is possible grounds for people to go out and play with units of 6 DMGs, which would actually start to produce real, meaningful evidence about how needed these units are in Empire armies, and how well they perform in the role.Where precisely did I make that comment? In the math?!? Or were you expecting me to make such a comment at a later point in time? I'm saying that the math in some examples shows that 6 DGK can make a good combat unit able to suck up a lot of punishment.
As you, me, and everyone else on this forum is yet to do that, we just have to accept that all we have is one limited, weak piece of evidence for a possible unit.
You want an exact quote? Okay;Your imagination IS running wild I'm afraid. A quote, please, and if you are unable to provide one, I'll reserve the right to call you out on these strawmen or to ignore them at my leisure, no offense intended. I don't even play against CW, so it's impossible I could have made such a statement, explicitly or implicitly.
"Then spit it out, man! Who do you prefer to kill those 24 8-wide MoK Halberd CW's in one or two rounds?"
To this I asked if you were really struggling of ways to kill Chaos Warriors, and noted that two HBVGs with engineers come it around the same price as the DMGs and the Chaos Warriors.
Of course it happens, and not just with Chaos Warriors, but with high quality troops from every army. In fact it even has a name - they call them deathstars.Beg to differ. True, that is what you wrote. However, what does it mean? Quite obviously you believe that the problem of a larger unit of CW is relevant, ergo it must happen often enough to matter. It must even happen often enough that a unit of 6 DGK is never a good idea despite the possibility of receiving additional support, perhaps in the form of those Helblasters you've mentioned later. It's not much of a stretch to assume you mean that almost everyone fields a large unit of CW.
I am not claiming you're saying they're an auto-include. I am saying that the jury is out on whether they really are a viable option. The evidence to date, one instance of mathammer showing a narrow win to the six DMGs, is weak, and there are no reports of people using them in actual games, let alone tournaments. As such, the only reasonable conclusion is to state that they might be a viable option, and time will tell.6 DGK are a viable option. Nobody says they're a must. Nobody says they're an auto-include, and nobody ever said a word about limiting other options.
Sure. I think you're right that the quote reply quote reply thing has likely resulted in a lot of words getting twisted, and didn't really help anyone.Having said all that, let's bury that particular hatchet. Part of my reason to ignore your previous post was that mutual accusations of twisting of words rarely have a winner, are tedious for everyone else and aren't conducive to a good debate. I apologize for my part in it and any unclear or offenisve statements I've made as a kind of olive branch.
As to evidence: Does anyone know whether people use units of 6 Mournfangs? They seem to be the closest equivalent. Now of course they are part of a very different army..
hey i'm pretty new, normally i just lurk but i would love to but my imput in to this thread. Ive played empire though out 8th edition and i love the army. When the new book came round, i struggled so badly. my army shrunk insize, things got more expensive, certain items/units changed and i'll admit it was a massive shock to the system. It got to a point where i was preparing to make a switch to a new army, but i just couldnt. i love the models, i love the back ground and i built quite a impressive collection over the years. So hence forth i set out and got hammered repeatly by my highly competive gaming group. but each loss you learn somthing. it was basicly like learning how to play with a bran new army, which to be honest i was. I tried seeking the internet for wisdom but to be fair i really didnt find anything strong, and to be honest the best way to learn the strengths and weakness's of your army is just to play games and find out what works for you. So after getting steam rolled over and over again i went back and looked at my choices, i reflected on what preformed well and what acted poorly. i revised my list played more games, won some, lost some then took another look at my list. nothing will beat good experience, and basicly i repeated this process and now i've been winning alot of my games.
this is how many how looks now
2400 points Comp list
-Amoi and great weapon
Wizard lord lvl 4
-bsb full plate, enchanted sheild
-full plate, charmed sheild, sword of might
riding a peg
16 swords men
10 knights (lance)
5 knights (lance)
5 knights (lance)
30 great swords (deployed 7 wide)
banner of disc
helstorm rocket battery
So the armies i play against are lizards (with the highly annoying etheral slann with cupped hands), Beast (mino bus with the one rock hard mino lord riding it), wood elves, Orcs and gobs, high elves and warriors of choas. If you want a chance of beating your opponent, you need to know what there capble of. The best way of doing this is having there army book to read. i own pretty much all the army books, just brought them thoughout the years, but you dont need to go to such lengths. just ask if you could borrow it for a night to read if your good friends or just ask if you could look though it while your at the club. i found most gamers i met for the first time to be pretty friendly people. treat them and there property with respect, they will in kind treat you the same.
So on to beating the crap out if these people. First off a big honoured mention to my great swords and there detachments. They have held the centre of my battle line over and over again. just so you know the detachments arn't there to kill anything, their there just to protect the flanks of the gw so they dont get hammered by to many units at the same time. basicly there ld 10 stubbon road blocks that can hold up a unit for a turn or even 2 which can make a huge difference to the battle. Add in the prayer that grants a 5+ ward and you find u will have one hell of a affective anvil that can break the back of alot of armies.
Inner circle knights are fanastic! if you dont have them you may want to think about aleast trying them out. i always try and deploy them so the can either ride and threaten the flank of the opposing army or a point i know they can smash though a unit and circle and charge the rear. i use lore of shadow so its pretty simple. charge them at a point in the emy line your confident they can break and misama the weapon skill of the unit so you stand a good chance of hitting on 3's. these guys have smashed warriors out the way and ran down there fair share of lizards. i love them. The 2 5 man units of knights are just deployment drops. either use them to kill emy chaff or i sometimes deploy them 3x2 to assainate low lvl wizards or heros in units. 1+ amour save is golden. dont be afraid to run them into strength 4 troops, they can tank alot of damage and dish a respectable amount back.
The steam tank. i never use the cannon unless i have to. I basicly use it just like a chariot and smash it into somthing. its great, the amount of impact hits it does is discusting. If you ever come across a chosen star or any either deathstar you will struggle to handle, just slam this baby into them. it could die but my tank as kept some of the most dangerous units out of the game and let me wipe the floor with the rest of the army. If i dont come across any such units, using it for combo charges is a must. Its only died once and that was to pit of shades, but aleast its 50/50 chance now.
My cannons will only target warmachines, monsters, chariots, any lone heros. if theres no good targets i wont shoot them. if my opponent wants the points i want him to get them himself. Shooting stupid targets and the cannon blowing up has cost me a game or 2. its not worth it unless the risk is worth taking.
The swords men are just a bunker. One day i'll swap them out for either archers or spearmen. one gives me a few extra shots that could help kill a few chaff units. the other will give me 8 extra bodies for wounds making it alot more resislant. its just a matter of using what i got, and man i have alot of sowrds men.
The peg captain either hunts warmachines or etheral units (SLANN!!!!!). he makes my oppenent think twice about commiting to his moves. without him and the knights i found i was always on the back foot, now i can engage my oppenent more on my terms.
Well i hoped you guys will find this abit useful, im still refining my list, swaping things in and out. im tempted to drop the helstorm and a detachment and taking a unit of demi griff knights. or dropping the helstorm and taking a hurricanum, i'll just play games and find out what works best for me. Heres a few general things to remenber about empire.
Dont take to much shooting, the game will be won or lost in the fires of combat. i took enough to protentially kill a few key models (monster, chariots) but i've found my oppenent will take special care with such units and either hide them or deploy them in such a way they are less bold with them.
Be carefull with your detachments. 3" is very tight you might find it clumbersome and its very easy to get out of range. just keep this in mind when chargeing. Sometimes i'll let my oppenent charge me so my battle line stays intact. Mines set up to be a anvil its unless if broken.
i swear by lance and sheild knights. 1+ armour save on t3 models is just to good to pass up. I've used great weapon knights but agaisnt str4 units theres a massive diffence between having a 2+ save and a 3+ save. being easy to wound the extra armour helps keeping your guys fighting longer.
I guess most importanly this isn't gospel, empire is a very diverse army. just play games and find out what works best for you.
thanks for reading
6 mournfang is hugely different then 6 demigryphs and quite a bit more powerful. 4 mournfang is about the same as 6 DGC.
Now I wanna try 6 Mournfang in my ogre army!
at the moment i use shadow ( omg no brainer lore) to be fair the spell i use the most its is mystifying miasma. In my opinion one of the best spells in the game. its got so much tactical use its unreal. in the opening turns of the game i'll use it to lower the movement of a unit to keep it A) out of viable charge range for a extra turn ( or 2 if really lucky) B) if faceing multiable cannon targets, slowing one down so i can ensure i kill one in this turn and the other in the next.
When in combat i'll always debuff my oppenents Ws. theres a world of difference getting hit on 4's instead of 3's and vice visa hitting on 3's instead of 4's is always a nice treat. I'll some times cast the higher lvl version when fighting high elves in combat, if your lucky they will hit you on 4's and lose there reroll to hit ( basicly dont roll a 1 or a 2) massivly reduces there damage output in combat agasint certain units.
the rest of the spells are random, but the ones i love to get are withering and enfeebling foe. Withering is great in conduction with the helstorm, getting lots of wounds in on hordes or any unit you want to wittle down. when combat hits i'll use it on what ever unit my Innercircle knights are fighting in the second round to help break there foe. Enffebling i'll cast that on either the emy that is in combat with my anvil to let it mitigate damage alot better and hold them up longer or if i was crazy enough to slam my tank into a gw horde, i'll use it to protect the stank.
Mind razor is great to either draw out a dispel scroll, or use it as a detterent to stop someone charging for a turn. casting it on a unit you know will get by somthing really hefty will make most people think twice.
Prayers are really important to. i'll always one dice them so if its a abit of a risk for my oppenent to dispel them. the 2 i cast the most is a 5+ ward in combat and reroll to wound. having hatred and reroll to wound makes my anvil into a great hammer for a turn. can really take the bite out of alot of units. When combat hits the prayers are what i'll cast first, so if he fails to dispel (or lets me have them) it gives me a great advantage. even if he dispels them it a bonus because at the end of the day i expect my anvil to hold units not kill them. it basicly draws his dispel dice out so i have a easier time casting the shadow spells
That's certainly an interesting list and approach to the game, and you are making your points well, Battlecry.
Having said that, your list feels small for my taste. In my meta, at that point level, people could well field, say, 30 White Lions, some Swordmasters, some Dragon Princes, 30+ Phoenix Guard and a core horde. There are some good matchups (eg. PG vs GS) but there's often a 2:1 threat ratio to any of your units and so you could be flanked more easily.
With regard to magic, it appears as if you "just cast" a spell and there it is. I'm sure that's not what you wanted to convey but around here, it's not possible to "always" lower someone's WS, and single-dicing prayers for example can and will backfire.
I also don't think Shadow is the no-brainer lore. There's just too much good stuff in the others - all of them - that it would be a shame to always take Shadow. Life for a T10 STank or healing, WS 10, Comets, Fireballs killing Skinks, Gutter Runners and Ethereals, or killing a Grey Seer or Vamp Lord with Spirit Leech are just a few applications. Not saying you should change, far from it, it obviously is very good and it works well for you.