8th Edition 2012 book Empire Tactica

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Jezbot, that is all true what you say but the "firepower" of both units is not their selling point. It's just a sideshow. Of course I'm going to shoot both if the opportunity arises, it's just nothing to write home about regardless of whether it is a distinct role or just an aspect. I think we all agree that every unit has to be put into some perspective, so I can only repeat what I've said above: If you see a relevant amount of high-value, little T/armour targets like 10 Swordmasters, then Pistoliers are an excellent choice for their pistols alone. Since this does not happen very often in my neck of the woods, they could as well be armed with kitchen forks.

KimikoPT, tarpitting is indeed their most noticeable forte, and not a job to be underestimated. They are not only the most effective tarpit, they are often also the most cost-efficient one. Sure, one can use stubborn GS, detachments, busses, Reiksguard and whatnot these days but each and everyone of them is either more expensive, easier to wound, less resilient and more likely to break, or a combination of these. You can run a STank right into a horde of GW Graveguard and expect it to stay there the rest of the game. You cannot do that with 5 Reiksguard or 25 Greatswords or a stubborn detachment.

This means that the STank is not only better at conserving points. Holding out round after round has a lot of tactical implications such as blocking approaches to more fragile targets, locking down whole flanks, locking down more points than you have used, fixing a nasty character into place and so on. This ability alone can and has won games.

Thirdly, the STank is not bad at dishing out damage. Perhaps they'll address the issue of grinding in the movement phase, perhaps they don't, but that can amount to a lot of S6 hits. Pretty good against Brets or Chaos Knights, Rat Ogres or other relatively small units which would nevertheless make a mess of a block of Halberdiers. We also rarely expect to break enemies with a single other unit. Everyone talks about how Empire is combined arms. Why then should it be a concern that the STank might not break enemy units? What if it "only" kills a third of a horde of Bloodletters or White Lions? That can be enough for the infantry to take over.

Fourthly, there are the guns. Of course you can field 20 Greatswords or 40 Halberdiers instead and hope to emulate the tarpit function (which for 250 points is impossible, you usually need to figure in parts of the cost of a General/BSB and their availability as well). Even if they could do that, they don't get a cannon on top. And even if you'd buy a cannon, you still haven't got a Steam Gun into the package! With a potential S4, the STank goes a loooong way to reduce ginourmous hordes to a more manageable size with one shot.

Lastly, albeit minor points, there are the Engineer's repeater pistol and the option to take a moving Hochland for the first turns or when you don't wish to generate Steam Points, so it is a really really good deal overall.

[KimikoPT]

With the proliferation of the Shadow Lore -> Mindrazzor, many units will make a mess in 1 or 2 turns, specially HE. I don´t, maybe if GW makes a FAQ with grinding being done on the CC phase, it will be better. I´ve used it in 1 or 2 games, total waste of points, it´s very unreliable. In 7th i'd always bring 1.

[Tuttivillus]

LSP: You totally forgot to mention that it has a random movement now. I consider it as a plus on a charge turn as no one can escape it

[Gradek]

I have to agree with LSP, the stank (or 2) is an essential part of almost all of my empire army builds. It is very versatile (a tarpit, a cannon, a flanking hammer) so it almost always is highly useful and for its points it simply performs better than the same points in almost any of our other units.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

For my cavalry army I'm going to take two steam tanks. If you're having problems with High Elves try not running into them. You have a cannon and a steam gun for a reason.

Mind-razored Spearelves will go through 250 points of Empire infantry or cavalry easily too.

[Jezbot]

Jezbot, that is all true what you say but the "firepower" of both units is not their selling point. It's just a sideshow. Of course I'm going to shoot both if the opportunity arises, it's just nothing to write home about regardless of whether it is a distinct role or just an aspect. I think we all agree that every unit has to be put into some perspective, so I can only repeat what I've said above: If you see a relevant amount of high-value, little T/armour targets like 10 Swordmasters, then Pistoliers are an excellent choice for their pistols alone. Since this does not happen very often in my neck of the woods, they could as well be armed with kitchen forks.

Sure, they're not likely to deliver their 100 odd points of value from shooting alone. I was just making the point that in addition to doing their other role, delaying an enemy unit, they are free to shoot. As such, I think it is a mistake to consider their ability to delay the enemy in isolation, as in most games they will also score a few hits.

That shooting won't be enough to wipe out an enemy unit in almost every game, but then that's not the only measure of shooting. Knocking a model a turn off some Chaos Warriors is hardly setting the world on fire, but it'll mean when those Chaos Warrior reach combat there will be two or three less guys to face, and that's some kind of win.

KimikoPT, tarpitting is indeed their most noticeable forte, and not a job to be underestimated. They are not only the most effective tarpit, they are often also the most cost-efficient one. Sure, one can use stubborn GS, detachments, busses, Reiksguard and whatnot these days but each and everyone of them is either more expensive, easier to wound, less resilient and more likely to break, or a combination of these. You can run a STank right into a horde of GW Graveguard and expect it to stay there the rest of the game. You cannot do that with 5 Reiksguard or 25 Greatswords or a stubborn detachment.

Yeah, for a comparison you can look at how else an Empire army might get 10 wounds with a 1+ save that are likely to stay in combat despite losing, and that'd be 10 Reiksguard. Those Reiksguard are more expensive, only T3, and are only Stubborn compared to Unbreakable.

And, as you say, the Steam Tank inflicts Str 6 grinding hits, allowing it to do some damage to high toughness/high armour targets - something the Empire generally struggles with. And then if it adds that combat res to the ranks provided by an infantry unit like you suggest, you've got a decent hammer that is likely to break powerful enemy units.

I'm finding the Steamtank and the Helblaster are the two things that makes up for the relatively mediocre quality in the rest of the list. Maybe adding in the demigryphs, though I find their contribution a little more situational than the two above.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

KimikoPT, Freman's already pointed it out: They will make a mess of any other 250 points you have, be it 20 Greatswords, an L4 or 4 DGK, and a lot of stuff from other factions that isn't 100 Gobbos. It's not a weakness particular to the STank.

Tuttivillus, I didn't mention that because I think that random movement is not a good rule, game-design wise, and it really is a wash. It's unpredictable for everyone, not just for your opponent. Being able to reliably predict where it would stop had its good sides too, and I'm happy if someone choses to leg it with his 500 point unit. That could be just as useful if it takes them out of the game.

Jezbot, completely agree.

[Jezbot]

Tuttivillus, I didn't mention that because I think that random movement is not a good rule, game-design wise, and it really is a wash. It's unpredictable for everyone, not just for your opponent. Being able to reliably predict where it would stop had its good sides too, and I'm happy if someone choses to leg it with his 500 point unit. That could be just as useful if it takes them out of the game.

Yeah, it's the one thing to me that just felt wrong about the new steam tank rules. The machine is supposed to lumbering, there should be plenty of time for the enemy to see it and run away if the want to. Being able to use it to pin down fast troops that are hard to trap in combat, while knights and other fast troops can't do the same just feels wrong.

I can see why they gave it the rule - previously it was the only unit in the game where it's charge range was fixed, and that felt wrong as well - it should be the least reliable charging unit. But this doesn't work either.

As for whether random movement rules make it better or worse than it used to be, well I agree with LSP that it's kind of a wash.

[Tuttivillus]

Tuttivillus, I didn't mention that because I think that random movement is not a good rule, game-design wise, and it really is a wash. It's unpredictable for everyone, not just for your opponent.

Isn't that a fluffy side of that machine? I loved the fixed movement too, but my opponents didn't, since it was the only unit with that rule. I'm not saying that it's new rules are perfect, maybe they are lazy written and could get some extra movement rules , but the trend in new army books points towards using rules from BRB. It seems that GW will continue that trend until new Skaven release

[yabbadabba]

Yeah, it's the one thing to me that just felt wrong about the new steam tank rules. The machine is supposed to lumbering, there should be plenty of time for the enemy to see it and run away if the want to. Being able to use it to pin down fast troops that are hard to trap in combat, while knights and other fast troops can't do the same just feels wrong.

Problem with that is you end up with an almost indestructable war machine wandering around, or a cheap mobile war machine amassing in front of you.

Again, WFB is just an abstract and the mechanics are there to produce a result, not create or cross with any reality. I still haven't taken a steam tank, I just don't trust my dice rolls.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

But yabba, in that case you couldn't take any unit. They all roll dice at some point.

I must admit I am very happy with the STank, much more than with any other unit in the book (and you all know how immensely critical I was when it was new). It's not even that much better than its old incarnation (neither is it worse) but it's so incredibly reliable and tough compared to the fragile humies elsewhere in a list.

[yabbadabba]

But yabba, in that case you couldn't take any unit. They all roll dice at some point.

I just put my eggs in lots of baskets. I still tend to end up with lots of eggy blankets. More importantly I'd probably blow up my own STank 2 out of 3 games, if my normal dice patterns are anything to go by!

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Sure, there's no cure for bad dice but what kind of units do you field that cost less (apart from single WM and characters)? I think it's a pretty good deal even for MSU.

[yabbadabba]

Sure, there's no cure for bad dice but what kind of units do you field that cost less (apart from single WM and characters)? I think it's a pretty good deal even for MSU.

As I said the real issue becomes as it starts to lose wounds. While my games have improved with the new army book, before then I have regularly played games where its been over by turn 2, and the next 2 turns have been all about futility. My current opponent even suggested we went back to roleplaying as he was so embarrassed for me. Gods know why I still play ;-)!

I get my good games as well though. Last game my 5 Outriders, 2 Helblasters and 2 cannons destroyed more of my opponents army than the rest of it put together, although both my GSs and Reiksguard failed their first LD rolls (with rerolls) and got wiped out in pursuit . But from 6e-7e-8e undere the old book it was just pointless most of the time.

I am in a campaign at the moment and the armies are potentially going to reach 6k at the top end soon. I'll get the STank out then. At the moment I tend to take at leats one Halberdier unit, either GSs or Reiksguard, ICK, 2 x Helblaster and Cannon, 1-2 x Outriders a s standard with a Lvl 4 and either a Lvl 2 and/or Warrior Priests. I run a defensive/offensive game, often refusing one flank with the GSs, Reiksguard (or sometimes Flagellants) anchoring it.

[Jezbot]

Problem with that is you end up with an almost indestructable war machine wandering around, or a cheap mobile war machine amassing in front of you.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

Again, WFB is just an abstract and the mechanics are there to produce a result, not create or cross with any reality.

I'm not sure that's true. Even if properly balanced with an appropriate points cost, it would 'feel wrong' for Night Goblins to be able to slaughter multiple Ogres each every turn. Units ought to feel like the fluff they represent. In the same way, a steam tank ought to feel like a lumbering medieval tank, and having it able to catch

[yabbadabba]

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

What are you not sure about?

I'm not sure that's true. Even if properly balanced with an appropriate points cost, it would 'feel wrong' for Night Goblins to be able to slaughter multiple Ogres each every turn. Units ought to feel like the fluff they represent. In the same way, a steam tank ought to feel like a lumbering medieval tank, and having it able to catch

There are no Ogres and Night Goblins in reality, therefore as the rules change GW can pretty much do what they want with them. Same with the Steam Tank, just because your perceptions of its abilities are different from GWs, and the game's needs, doesn't make anyone wrong, but it does make GW right. GWs link between fluff and rules has been loose for a number of editions in all their games now, this is what I mean by abstract. Its like chess while you can see the links, the game and reality have very little connection.

[Jezbot]

What are you not sure about?

I'm not sure how my comment, that a steam tank that is supposed to be lumbering but instead denies enemy units any charge reaction as if it were very nimble, relates to your reply, that you end up with an indestructible war machine, or a cheap mobile war machine. Nothing in my comment related to the toughness of the machine or its price.

There are no Ogres and Night Goblins in reality, therefore as the rules change GW can pretty much do what they want with them. Same with the Steam Tank, just because your perceptions of its abilities are different from GWs, and the game's needs, doesn't make anyone wrong, but it does make GW right. GWs link between fluff and rules has been loose for a number of editions in all their games now, this is what I mean by abstract. Its like chess while you can see the links, the game and reality have very little connection.

There are no Ogres and Night Goblins in reality, but there is a broad, shared understanding of the capabilities of various units. Ask any warhammer nerd if a goblin is as skilled a fighter as an elf and he'll give you a clear answer, and should be able to do so without referencing WS stats. And then there's further information given by the models we put on the board, if GW were to design a big, spectular new monster model, put it on a large base and then give it T2 a a single wound and people will say 'that's pretty stupid', even if it was priced correctly.

Because Warhammer is not the same thing as chess. It could, theoretically, be played entirely in the abstract, with wooden pegs cut to scale, but it isn't, because a lot of the fun is in simulating a fantasy battle. As such, rules that better simulate each unit in the game are better rules.

Obviously there's always a balance to be found, as you have to consider ease of play and providing an interesting tactical environment, as well.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Okay, so perhaps the time has come to improve and modify some of the entries on the first page. Ranald, are you still lurking? Perhaps you are willing to adopt some of my suggestions, some of which are "merely" in regard to layout, style and spelling*. I'll italicize my propositions:

Core Choices

Halberdiers
Cheap troops with st4 in combat due to their halberds. They will die very quickly in combat to any unit with st4 or multiple attacks. Beware of units with poison. Still a solid choice as its our only st4 core infantry. Able to provide kills in a horde or ranks in a bus formation. Remember that str4 affects not only the to-wound roll but also the armour save of your target, so Halberdiers provide a double benefit.

Swordsmen
The anvil unit, with ws4 and a 5+ save and 6+ parry ward. More expensive than our other state troops but with an advantage - this could be misleading, since all State Troops have some kind of advantage!. Ws4 is less about hitting easier and more about being harder to hit. Against many ws4 core and some ws4 elite units, Swordsmen will be hit on 4+ instead of 3+. That means they will often last longer than other core State Troops, even though there will just as often be less of them to start with. Swordsmen work best in narrow 5 wide with deep ranks as this limits the number of models your opponent can allocate to them. Against similarly sized units of their own class - Clanrats, some Elven core, non-Flail/GW Marauders -, they can reform to a horde as well and actually defeat the opposing unit.

Spearmen
The cheapest core choice, mainly defensive due to the fight in extra rank rules. Like Swordsmen mainly run in a narrow frontage with deep ranks.

Free Company
Cheap and with no armour save but gain an extra attack. Commonly used as detachments, although most players prefer halberdiers for st4 or the more surviveable (I think?) swordsmen

Handgunners
Handgunners st4 armour piercing, with a 24 inch range. Most armies are in close combat come turn 2/3, meaning you have a limited time to use your handgunners effectively. Position is key and any time spent moving is a turn's shooting wasted.

Crossbowmen
Similar to handgunners st4 with a 30 inch range. That extra 6 inches makes a big difference. Been able to shoot on turn one and they dont have to move to gain range on most targets. The loss of the armour piercing has to be weighed up by the increase in range.

Archers
Archers the only accessable core skirmishing unit. As such, they are able to march, reform and shoot. This gives archers alot of options in a game were positioning and movement are still important. Archers can be used to outflank and harass enemy units and warmachines. Being susceptible to magic missiles is a common argument not to take these guys.

Knightly Orders
Provide a mobile flanking unit or a useable tarpit to hold in place enemy units for a flank charge. The argument over using lance or greatweapons is a matter of opinion. Lance-armed knights make the most effective tarpit when coupled with a captain or general with the crown of command. Greatweapons make excellent flanking units vs large or strong units where return attacks are limited while you can bring all your st5 attacks to bear.

- These statements are highly debatable: It does not explain why Lancers make the best tarpit, it does not say whether it is better than a bus of 40 State Troops, and it includes a character with the Crown, who obviously can be used in each and every unit. The second statement is more than misleading, it is outright confusing: As a newbie, I would want to know why precisely the unit with a worse AS is better against strong enemies. Would they not have an easier time to defeat them? Why are large or strong units limited in attacks? Would not a limit on attacks make a unit weak? Lastly, why are GW not good as a tarpit? You might lose some more but you also kill more, so from the PoV of combat resolution it surely is a wash?

Inner Circle Knights
A great core option to field. At a base S4 instead of the regular knights' S3 + lance or great weapon, ICK hit hard at S6. The increased points cost is the one deciding factor, in smaller games those extra points could come in more useful elsewhere.


- Is that true? A unit of 10 ICK costs 280 points without a magic banner. A unit of 40 Halberdiers costs 270 with FC. If you can afford the latter, you can shave off points to afford the former, and you have to have some core anyways. As such, point costs cannot be the reason not to include them. Perhaps the smaller model count is the real factor, or maybe it's the lack of ranks but then why not say so? You don't save points by not taking them after all, so what do you mean with extra points?



*No offence but a sentence like "Being susceptable to magic missles is a commen argument for not taking these guys." just looks and feels a little sloppy. I realize you've been doing this on your own with next to no support from the rest of us, so kudos to your effort and time, I just think that we can improve and hope you will read this as the neutral-voice suggestion it is!

[Wesser]

Ya LSP thats whats most of think of our Core Choices...

However with Empire more than just about any other you can't set it up like that. It gets missleading.

Knights and Halberdiers for instance benefits a lot more from the derp-altars and warrior priests than do the other core choices. Especially the over-priced shooters who doesnt benefit at all. That also highlights the shortcomins of the swordsmen. With no crutch to lean on they look terribly weak compared to the other choices (spearmen are at least cheaper). Problem is also that lance knights makes better tarpits than swordsmen too. In fact thats one of the few solid ways of beating elves.

It's a good summary. But with Empire you can't let your core walk around without their crutches

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Please note that I only took Ranald's assessments on core choices from the first page and subjected them to some first-level lectorate. Doing a more in-depth assessment than this would be nice but it takes time and brain juices. If we really want the Tactica to be at least a rough guide for anyone seeking advice, I think we should all pull together and improve it. I don't think it has to be perfect the first, third or fifth time. It's a work in progress, so if anyone can write something succinct about any particular choice, Ranald - if he hasn't left for good due to what he perceives as bickering - could perhaps add it to the top.