8th Edition 2012 book Empire Tactica

[Hulkster]

I am intrigued with e Wizard Lord on a Griffon idea. The White Cloak of Ulric would be perfect with him riding a Griffon with Blood Roar, as previously mentioned, but what else would you give him?

I was thinking an Ogre blade

[Von Wibble]

VHS or Fencers Blades I'd say. Ogre blade only benefits 1 attack, seems weak for the price. With Fencers Blades you'd be 6 to be hit by WS4 and below (thus could leave bloodroar at home), VHS has obvious benefits. Crown of command is a 3rd alternative to ensure the griffon stays fighting, but imo you should aim to have the thing fighting enemies that will run in 1 round anyway.

[Hulkster]

VHS or Fencers Blades I'd say. Ogre blade only benefits 1 attack, seems weak for the price. With Fencers Blades you'd be 6 to be hit by WS4 and below (thus could leave bloodroar at home), VHS has obvious benefits. Crown of command is a 3rd alternative to ensure the griffon stays fighting, but imo you should aim to have the thing fighting enemies that will run in 1 round anyway.

Good point.

Think I might try Van Hostmans and a Relic Blade

It will at least b something different.

I am stuggling to make a new list with the current book. I am trying to find the balance between characters and units. Is 40 Swordsmen with a det of 20 halberdiers alongside 25 greatswords with a det of 12 swordsmen too few units? It is hard fitting it all in.

[Deathbysoup]

My argument for 5 outriders is that you can use them like a unit of handgunners. 105pts -15 shots, higher BS and the ability to get out of dodge if need be. So instead of using them like pistoliers just deploy them where you would deploy handgunners.

Just my two pennies

[Asuryan's Spear]

Was just wondering what peoples' opinion of Free companies were? what are their uses and what numbers would people be fielding them?

[TsukeFox]

I think a possibility for the witch hunter could be to stick him with a detachment of (or unit of ) archers. They seem to complement each other well being able to march and fire, and iirc when charging with skirmishers you can pretty much choose where the witch hunter will end up, meaning he gets to be btb with his quarry? Of course you'd need to either a) consider this a sacrifice or b) give him some decent support

Unless I'm mistaken pistoliers have went down a point. People shouldn't consider them to be competing with outriders imo, completely different roles. Pistoliers are fast and have 3 attacks in combat - made for killing enemy fast cav and war machine hunters. Also I'm not sure where 6s to hit comes from - I thought they could march into short range and fire with no penalty as pistols are quick to fire and they are fast cav (leaving only multishots for 5 to hit)? Arguably Huntsmen can do their job as well but Huntsmen rely a lot more on initial deployment whilst pistoliers can adapt. And you can use them as a sacrifice if needs be - 90 points isn't that much in cost and you'll cause a couple of wounds in shooting also. In short, pistoliers aren't a complete waste of points.

To the poster who asked about Volkmar, I'd say you really should put him on the alter, as you gain no benefit from your weapon otherwise (and therefore a lector with gw/ehw and 4+ ward is cheaper and better). I'm surprised with the rule they gave the Jade griffon as it is overridden by a prayer effect (I was hoping for it to restore wounds as it used to). +1 to cast prayers is a nice boost but no a major thing. Overall he's slighty overcosted imo but not to the point where he's useless (I'd have priced him at 175).

Tonyflow - War alter is now something where you have to tailor the army to it somewhat. The 6" hatred bubble and fact that prayers also affect a 6" bubble are both huge things in its favour, but you are right, 2 well placed WPs can be just as good.

Always give the witch hunter the flying carpet to help get into position or use the shadow steed spell to do the same

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Unless I'm mistaken pistoliers have went down a point. People shouldn't consider them to be competing with outriders imo, completely different roles. Pistoliers are fast and have 3 attacks in combat

Sorry to say but you are mistaken. They cost just the same, and they only have 1 attack each, plus the front rank's horses.

My argument for 5 outriders is that you can use them like a unit of handgunners. 105pts -15 shots, higher BS and the ability to get out of dodge if need be.

The only real advantage over handgunners is that they can flee faster. The additional BS compensates for the multishot, and you only have 5 wounds, albeit with some level of armour. Of course those 105 points get you 4 more shots.

Outriders can potentially be deployed behind other infantry. Their elevated position can mean that they shoot without any modifiers but will only be hit at -2. It's a niche application though I think.

[Hulkster]

On a more productive point, what do you guys think is the minimum number of units we need to play. I am struggling to balance out my lists with this book.

[Still Standing]

New Empire player here! Two things brought me to Empire as a long time Warriors of Chaos player. Firstly I read Tamurkahn for the Chaos stuff and was more thrilled by the Empire stuff... Then this shiney new Army Book comes out forcing me to spend a bunch of my money on shinies.

I feel the need to point out that the army seems a lot more tactical under this book, requiring the successful general to combine effects of different units / characters into a whole greater than the sum of its parts. When looking at the army before the update I was planning on building a gunline, as that seemed to be practically the only viable build (or at least the only one I was interested in!). Now, however, I have lots more options for a viable combat orientated army, a magic army, a shooty armour, a cavalry army etc!

Anyway, after my initial splurge of spending I have come up with an army which I think will do the business (after some tweeking).

Amber Wizard
Light Wizard
2x Priests
BSB

(those are just about 500 points if kept fairly lean)

40 Swordsmen (I have to use these... I bought 43 of the FW Manann's Blades!)
40 Halbardiers / Spearmen
4x 10 Handgunner Detachments (I want to use the Armoured ones from the FW website)
40 Crossbowmen

Great Cannon
Helblaster Volley Gun

Magical Wagon (6+ ward or +1 to hit, not sure...)

This comes in around 2000 points. In a 2500 point game I will be using Elspeth Von Draken (lvl 4 Death Wizard on a cannon firing Dragon) as my Lord choice.

I have a feeling I need to get some fast cav in there for War Machine hunting. Perhaps 5 Outriders would be the order of the day!

Anyway, here is a nice picture of the way I envision my combined army working...

Battleplan! (also see attachment)



Looking at this I see a glaring weakness... The flanks are wide open to assault. Perhaps a unit of 20 Spearmen on each flank would remedy this? Also, maybe I don't need a unit of fast cav for war machine hunting? I can't imagine anything will do the job as well as a Dragon... However in games of under 2000 points I might need to invest in a unit of fast cav, as mentioned earlier.

Hmmm. I still envision this being a very shooty army, but designed to take a charge and keep fighting.

Anyway, I look forward to testing all this out on the field of battle!

Long post because forum was down and I was writing this post waiting for it to come back and watching TV!

[GodlessM]

On a more productive point, what do you guys think is the minimum number of units we need to play. I am struggling to balance out my lists with this book.

I have an average of 10 throughout the 4 lists I wrote, note including characters in units. This does include Detachments.

[jonnywright104]

Ok so i think as most of us either have the book ( got myself this baby this morning ) or know the points cost from the closed thread lets start our deliberations from the definition of standard unit sizes.

I think 30 is the default size for a well thought out empire unit of infantry. The main change is the shift from sword to halberd. Will you deploy your units 30 strong either 5x6 or 6x5 or you will risk and take more durable yet easier to hit contingents of 40 guys ? Remember that empire unit with detachments can get pretty expensive pretty fast and we need the points to buy all the stuff that really does the damage.

Why change from swords to halberds? explain please!

Sorry to say but you are mistaken. They cost just the same, and they only have 1 attack each, plus the front rank's horses.



The only real advantage over handgunners is that they can flee faster. The additional BS compensates for the multishot, and you only have 5 wounds, albeit with some level of armour. Of course those 105 points get you 4 more shots.

Outriders can potentially be deployed behind other infantry. Their elevated position can mean that they shoot without any modifiers but will only be hit at -2. It's a niche application though I think.

Handgunners have a 6+ save, outriders a 5+ (light armour and mounted)

[GodlessM]

Why change from swords to halberds? explain please!

Because they both went up a point but the Swords lost a point of Initiative, so the Halberds are now more cost effective (it's almost better just to have more bodies now instead of paying more for parry).

[Mudkip]

Should Demigyphs knights use lances or halberds?

[Private_SeeD]

I got the wizard mobile kit for my birthday and I'm bouncing around with the idea having a lvl 4 battle wizard lord on it... Still undecided on light or heaven, but not sure on what magic items to give the wizard, was thinking if I went for heavens going with 'Talisman of Preservation' but I usually suck at picking magic items


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[Lord Solar Plexus]

what do you guys think is the minimum number of units we need to play. I am struggling to balance out my lists with this book.

So do I. In the past, I usually aimed for five...uh, combat elements at 2,500 points. The number of characters or support units is IMO irrelevant. It is still possible to do that, although I want to try out detachments again for a couple of games. Two detachments of ~35-40 men in total replace one such combat element.

Of course this does come at the price of two warmachines compared to ye aulde times but hey, nothing I can do about that.

Handgunners have a 6+ save

No, they don't.

Amber Wizard
Light Wizard

Levels, items?

4x 10 Handgunner Detachments (I want to use the Armoured ones from the FW website)
40 Crossbowmen

Not a good idea. BS-based missile units don't do enough damage to big infantry, and there's only so much chaff you can direct 80 shots into. And they're pretty useless from turn onwards when everything is in combat. They'd probably kill around 18 T models at long range, which at first glance might seem a lot but it really isn't - not when you consider that these could be Slaves, or terrain modifiers, or the fact that some models or even whole units could be out of firing arc.

Perhaps a unit of 20 Spearmen on each flank would remedy this?

A unit of 20 Spears will go down to pretty much everything I reckon. You'd need to field them as detachments for stubborn parents but with only one crown and no Greatswords, that could be difficult.

Why change from swords to halberds? explain please!

It's probably the cost. In the past, Swordsmen were slightly better than Halberdiers even though there were fewer. Halberdiers would kill more but Swordsmen would still win more fights because the WS and better saves overcompensated for that.

I haven't done any calculations but this should still be the case, as losing 1 pip of Ini didn't matter that much in this comparison. It could well be that lots of Swordsmen leave you with too few men over all but we should be careful to ditch Swordsmen or start ripping them apart and converting them into Spears for example without some more information.

[Asuryan's Spear]

was wondering two things
firstly can you attach a captain to a Hellblaster to get his BS 5?
secondly what are the uses of Free company and what sizes of units are optimum for them?

[danny-d-b]

I got the wizard mobile kit for my birthday and I'm bouncing around with the idea having a lvl 4 battle wizard lord
on it... Still undecided on light or heaven, but not sure on what magic items to give the wizard, was thinking if I went for heavens going with 'Talisman of Preservation' but I usually suck at picking magic items


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theproblem is then template weapons and cannons hit both the wizzard and the magic thing, better to keep the wizzard on foot

was wondering two things
firstly can you attach a captain to a Hellblaster to get his BS 5?
secondly what are the uses of Free company and what sizes of units are optimum for them?

no beacuse its the crew that fire the helblaster not the captain

and free company are only realy good if your putting mindrazor on them, and if the oppounnt dispelss it then its a bit of a waste

[Fieos]

was wondering two things
firstly can you attach a captain to a Hellblaster to get his BS 5?
secondly what are the uses of Free company and what sizes of units are optimum for them?

You can't give a Hellblaster the BS of a Captain, just an Engineer. Also, I struggle to see the use of Free Company in anything other than a detachment of 15 models.

[Whut]

Ok, taktikz.

1) Our combat blocks are pathetic, they need a) buffs from magic to be able to do any sort of damage, and b) numbers to be able to soak up damage. The only way to guarantee both on many units is to have one large (and I mean HUGE! 80 models probably) central block and then two large (40 men) blocks as detachments. That way you can focus all your buffs on the middle unit and have it trickle down to the detachments. Alternatively you can have 2 blocks of 70 men each with a detatchment of 35 men if you want to split into more blocks. I would never recommend a unit less than 35 strong, as you want to horde everything, and T3 6+ saves mean they will drop like flies.

2) I suggest halberdiers and nothing else for combat blocks. Swordsmen, Militia, and Spearmen all cannot do any significant damage because of S3.

3) Demigryphs always take lances. Giving up a 1+ save is not worth +1 Strength on 4 attacks.

4) Griffons are still terrible. Monsters at T5 with no save are bad. They have always sucked, and they will always suck unless given a decent save (4+ or better) (and possibly also T6, or a regen save) Anything you mount on a Griffon will just become a pincushion, or will be left on foot as the Griffon falls beneath it. Plus anything you can actually mount on a griffon can't make use of it because our combat-oriented characters are terrible.

5) Outriders might have a 5+ save, but they also lose shots much faster. If handgunners take 4 wounds, you lose 4 shots. If Outriders take 4 wounds, you lose 12 shots. My opinion is don't take either.

[Mudkip]

Is horde that useful? Compare a block of 50 Halberdiers in horde formation against a block of 35 Halberdiers in 5-wide ranks accompanied by a 15-man detachment of Halberdiers (50 vs 50 overall). If the horde formation charges the 5-wide halberdiers they will get 3 ranks of attacks (7 models in each rank against 5-wide frontage) so 21 attacks, whereas the opposing halberdiers will get 10 attacks plus another 10 attacks from their counter-charging detachment. 21 attacks vs 20, not much difference except the horde halberdiers will probably lose on combat res because of the flank charge and won't have steadfast, so they may well flee and get cut down en masse. The horde formaton of halberdiers might have their own detachment but it will be difficult to get them into combat together due to the large frontage and they basically lose on an equal points footing.

The horde formation is stronger when used offensively, but horde formations are expensive, even for 6 point models, and all you get is another rank of 7-10 mediocre strength 4 attacks which even with buffs are nothing special. All those halberdiers will start adding up to a pretty large investment in points eventually.

A couple of steadfast blocks of state troops with accompanying detachments are a healthy way to fulfil your minimum core requirement, and with the right support elements like warrior priests and wizard wagons they may even be able to actually fight something, but I wouldn't take significantly more than the 25% I have to spend on them.