Can a mortal become a daemonic herald?

[Lord Squidar]

Quiet simple really, can a mortal become a daemonic herald? I would like to create some fluff for my army general.

The primarchs became daemon princes and heralds are lower than primarchs in power at least so to me it makes sense.

[Xisor]

Typhon (later Typhus) eventually becomes known as the (a?) Herald of Nurgle. It's mentioned rather neatly in the novel Cadian Blood if you're at all interested. Obviously that's not 'him becoming a daemon', but it's a technicality, really.

Personally, I'd be quite happy with mortals transcending their nature and becoming Heralds. Whether it's strictly permitted, I can't say, but I do like the idea.

[Buddha777]

It's all dependent of the definition of "herald." As Xisor mentioned Typhus is the herald of nurgle, but that could just be his title. If you are referring to the heralds represented in codex: daemons then it seem unlikely that a mortal could become one.

Daemons, as little as they are concretely explained, are in essence nothing more than manifestations in the material world of pure energy. A mortal can seemingly transcend his earthly bonds to become elevated to a demon prince (or even possibly possessed) but they still maintain a physical body. A herald, being pure energy, would seem to counter that idea.

But honestly in a universe such as 40k just go with a backstory that you like, anything is possible here.

[Lord Squidar]

Well I clean forgot about daemonic possession. It wuuld work just as well, if not better, if my general possessed someone and did the naughty thing, and got his soul as a result. After all, Tzeentch is Legion, so T'xisishhttzz'ssheel the Tentacled One could pick up Seargent Bob of the Ultramarines into his collective selfs without any hassle.

[Orthodox]

Daemons, as little as they are concretely explained, are in essence nothing more than manifestations in the material world of pure energy. A mortal can seemingly transcend his earthly bonds to become elevated to a demon prince (or even possibly possessed) but they still maintain a physical body. A herald, being pure energy, would seem to counter that idea.

But honestly in a universe such as 40k just go with a backstory that you like, anything is possible here.

RoC says that plague bearers are the souls of deceased mortals. I don't mean all deceased mortals, but nurglesque ones sometimes become run of the mill plague bearers whose sisyphean occupation is to count... stuff. Epidemius is obviously an exalted plague bearer. The difference is that the gods really like a mortal and pump him with enough power that he becomes a daemon prince while still alive, while a mortal whose body dies *might* become a lesser daemon, if he is so immersed in a tzeentchian/khornate/etc lifestyle that his soul isn't torn apart by the warp but becomes part of that god's armies.

Those mortals probably don't retain much of an individual personality though, since the whole point is they lost their individuality and became so focused on one aspect of life. This is one of the questions of possession, like in the case of Horus. In the same way that the concept of possession comes from primitive cultures explaining mental illness and erratic behavior, some cases of 40k possession might be comparable to a mortal's soul turning into a daemon while it's still attached to a normal body, with no need for exogenous subversion.

So there shouldn't be any continuity between a mortal and his putative daemonic successor, since having a personal agendum - that isn't kil kil, change change, toil toil, or lick everything! - would disqualify his liberated soul from being claimed by any single power, and he would dissipate among horrifying warp currents. If it's a daemon army, I guess it doesn't matter what his blood type and his hobbies were before he died, but a mortal army couldn't have its general die and come back as a non-prince daemon.

[Michael M.]

Yes, it is possible. In the third part of the Siege of Vraks, is a daemon prince of Khorne that starts as a normal human. He raged through the realms of the mortals until he stood in front of Khorne himself. He fought as a normal human against a bloodthirster and beheaded him. After that he became a daemon prince known as Uraka Az´baramael. So why should a normal human not become a herold of a chaos god.

[Muad'Dib]

I'd say a mortal becoming a Herald, rather than a Daemon Prince, takes something away from the mythos of Chaos.

The vibe I always got from reading Chaos fluff, was that it's either ultimate power - Daemonhood, which only a bare handful can reach - or death/spawnhood. Including the option to ascend to become a Daemonic Herald seems to go against this 'all or nothing' idea of Chaos worship. If someone is incapable of becoming a Daemon Prince, then he/she is fit only to die gloriously for his Chaos.

I recall a short story on GW's site where a champion ascends as he sacks an Imperial Cathedral, while at the same time Imperial reinforcements are moments away from rushing his position and taking him down. And for me that shows the nature of 'ultimate risk for the ultimate reward'.
Becoming a Daemonic Herald (which, I'm assuming, would require less of glorious deeds in the name of the god(s) ) seems like an easy way out in comparison to that, especially considering how picky the gods are.

Though I'd be more inclined to accept that a lesser's champion soul can be used as a basis for a Daemonic Herald's birth. But his/her personality and ambition wouldn't 'ascend' into the warp in the same way a Daemon Prince's does. Even if some of characteristics of the former mortal would be retained in the newly created Herald, he/she would lose his/her (sense of) individuality.

[MyNameDidntFit]

I agree with Muad. Chaos is all about ultimate power or ultimate sacrifice.

[Lupe]

I agree with Muad. Chaos is all about ultimate power or ultimate sacrifice.

That's a bit of an oversimplification of the nature of Chaos.
The constant is sacrifice. Everybody pays the price for failure, of course. But not every champion of chaos turned for the same reasons, so not everybody expects the same reward as the guy next to him.

Some want the power to crush their foes beneath their boots, or to weave the fates of others half a galaxy away, or some other dream... We welcome these gentlemen to the Daemonhood lottery.

Others just want to cheat death and just do what they do best until last star in the galaxy burns itself out. For instance, Lucius, who lives, dies and lives again, over and over again, with no other goal or motive than the momentary tingle of extreme sensations - the thrill of personal combat, the ecstasy of narrowly escaping death, or the agony of a death wound. Or Kharn, who has been brought from the brink of death at least once before, his barely contained wrath pleasing the Rage God far more than his skull would ever do. These, and a select few others like Typhus, Erebus, Abbadon etc are the Heralds. Arguably their deeds have furthered the cause of the Ruinous Powers far more than a mere daemon prince could ever do... Just ask yourselves how many of Krieg Acerbus, or Kendrax Voldorius' previous feats can you name that could have earned them daemonhood. Then see if these can hold a candle to the feats of the Heralds...

[Exitas-Acta-Probat]

i think its perfectly okay for a mortal to be a herald. a herald is just a title, its basically a servant who anounces his masters coming/arival. so they neednt be a demon, just a favourate slave of the demon prince. or a budding demon prince who has been put under the command of a more acomplished one.

[MyNameDidntFit]

That's a bit of an oversimplification of the nature of Chaos.

Quite. I posted that a touch hurriedly: I should have said Chaos when it comes to daemonhood/the higher tiers of mutation--you either ascend to a Daemon Prince/wield the massive power of your mutations... or devolve into Spawn/Forsaken/a blob.

[unwanted]

But to my mind, the abilities of a Herald on the tabletop might well represent a devout servant, who's been granted the service of a pack of daemons. From a story-perspective, I'm sure there's plenty of feasible explanations for a favoured mortal to lead daemons, and his daemon-like abilities are simply the blessings of Chaos?

[Erzanj]

The Realms of Chaos books had a "Pseudo-Daemonhood" mutation. The champion grew 1.5 times taller, and gained wings, horns and a tail. He also followed most of the daemon special rules, despite not truly being one - and so still being able to turn either into a true Daemon Prince, or a mindless spawn depending on his successes or failures.

I quite like the idea of the fickle Gods of Chaos granting their champion a taste of immortality, only to better turn him into their toy.

[Superkid]

IIRC the new demons dex (or army book?) mentiones that people who fall to nurgle's plagues become plague bearers, but people who were able to resist it through shear willpower come out stronger in the warp as heralds or nurgle. I'd imagine, since god-aligned souls do become demons, that a powerful warlord that dies, but doesnt ascend to Princehood could easily be a herald. Thats at least how i view it.

[The Devourer]

The plague bearer transformation is an anomaly. All the other fluff on deamons has them being distinctly different to souls in the warp. Souls are just ripples in the warp, daemons are being made of warp energy.

[Hadrun]

Ingethel, a native of Cadia was anointed by the gods as Lorgar's guide in revealing the Primordial Truth and undertook a ritual to do so which elevated her to the ranks of the daemonic as Ingethel the Ascended.

my vote is yes

[Muad'Dib]

The plague bearer transformation is an anomaly. All the other fluff on deamons has them being distinctly different to souls in the warp. Souls are just ripples in the warp, daemons are being made of warp energy.

I wouldn't call that anomaly - more of a different kind of manifesting his power that Nurgle chose/ended up with.

Also, I think that the plague victims don't become Plaguebearers per se - for me it's more of a case of Plaguebearer using the extreme despair of Nurgle's rot (which is literally a disease of the soul as much as of body) to slowly manifest themselves using the victim's body.
And same for Heralds of Nurgle - it's not the tough mortal ascending to become a Herald of Nurgle, but merely Nurgle gaining more power from a resilient soul succumbing to despair, which gives birth to Heralds of Nurgle within warp.

Ingethel, a native of Cadia was anointed by the gods as Lorgar's guide in revealing the Primordial Truth and undertook a ritual to do so which elevated her to the ranks of the daemonic as Ingethel the Ascended.

my vote is yes

I thought she 'ascended' as well when I read her up on Lexicanum, but I googled her name now and this came up http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/i...owtopic=224267.
In a nutshell, it seems that Ingethel was nothing more than a vessel for a Daemonic entity that was chosen to illuminate the Word Bearers. Her self/personality didn't (from the consensus in the topic I linked reached by people ) make it through in the same way a Daemon Prince's does.
So the only examples of champions 'ascending' to a different position than that of a Daemon Prince are Lucius and Kharn (and Typhus, I guess. Though I don't recall him ever getting resurrected like the other two) I'm kind of on the fence in regards to how the Ahriman-Tzeentch relation(s), but I'd say he counts as well in the end.

And in regards to the 'ascended' champions like Kharn, Lucius and Typhus I think they all have in common one thing that allowed them get off the "reach Princedom or die trying" road. They all are utterly devoted to their respective gods. (Ahriman seems to be a different kettle of fish in regards to devotion to Tzeentch) This is in contrast with every other Chaos champion I've read about, who, even while wholly devoted to their gods, still have this drive for power and ambition. While Typhus thinks of nothing more than spreading despair (to the point of breaking off from Mortarion), Kharn literally cares not from where the blood flows to the point of breaking his legion on Skalathrax. I'd say those three don't even follow their gods' will per se. They simply exemplify their gods'

But to my mind, the abilities of a Herald on the tabletop might well represent a devout servant, who's been granted the service of a pack of daemons. From a story-perspective, I'm sure there's plenty of feasible explanations for a favoured mortal to lead daemons, and his daemon-like abilities are simply the blessings of Chaos?

That sounds neat. I'd say that it's not something that occurs commonly, but it is certainly possible.

[Flikre213]

I don't know about a daemonic herald, but there is a fluff piece in the C:SM codex about a warlord who lived in the 20th century and became a daemon prince.

Mortals have the same rights as immortals when it comes to Chaos. They are truly an equal opportunities employer.

[TrueKin]

Mortals can't become Daemonic Heralds (as in the Codex entries Herald of Tzeentch, Herald of Khorne, etc), they can only reach Daemonhood as Daemon Princes. Other Daemons consider Daemon Princes tainted by their mortal origins and thus inferior, as the Codex states (can't search for the exact page right now).

If talking about being a herald of a God, as in the simple title herald, it's possible. You do something worth being a champion among champions of a God, but not yet worth Daemonhood, you get the fancy title.

A mortal could in a way become a Herald of Nurgle by dying of Nurgle's Rot, being reborn as a Plaguebearer and then earning the rank of a Herald, but he wouldn't be the same person anymore, as his own traits get replaced by those of a Plaguebearer. There's nothing to bind him to what he was when he lived, unlike with the Daemon Princes, who are the still the same being after their ascendancy.

[Hrw-Amen]

Whilst reading all arguments for and against and seeing the points made, I'd have to say this is W40K, a made up sci-fi universe where (As pointed out with plaguebearers.) odd things do and can happen all the time. Therefore do you actually have to ask, if you want that to happen just make it so. If anyone queries it then the answer is that chaos is unpredictable by its very nature, you don't really know why it happened in your generals case, but for whatever reason the particular chaos god favoured (Or mocked depending on your view) him/her and that is that.