Can a mortal become a daemonic herald?

[Mister Blak]

All heralds of nurgle were, at one time in their lives, mortals, as all plaguebearers are people who have contracted nurgle's rot. Whilst i would imagine they lost all that remained of their old selves, perhaps especially strong-willed individuals wouldn't.

I don't know about a daemonic herald, but there is a fluff piece in the C:SM codex about a warlord who lived in the 20th century and became a daemon prince.

Mortals have the same rights as immortals when it comes to Chaos. They are truly an equal opportunities employer.

I can remember the passage you mentioned there, but i don't recall any mention of the twentieth century. If it did say the twentieth century, and it was a daemon prince of khorne (which, AFAIK, it was), then it would have to have been someone who committed mass acts of slaughter during that time period...

Are GW saying Hitler has ascended to eternal life?

[Lord Squidar]

Woah, daemonic hitler alert!

Thanks for all the responses guys and gals and slaanshi things! I have adjusted my army fluff according to what is here, and my tzeentch herald is an elevated pink horror, but my nurgly one, the chief HQ, has come from some human source, and looks like this accordingly.

[The Devourer]

This has come up before and so far no one can provide a source for the 20th century part. You may be thinking of Doombreed who was the first khorne DP and who ascended early in earth history. Many people like to claim it's Hitler or another 20th century leader, but none of them really fit khornes style. While khorne may like a warlike politician for the oppurtunity they provide he isn't going to be giving them any of his power. To really get knornes favour you have to be doing the killing youself. Considering how far in the future 40k is Doombreeds birth could be far into the future and would still be ancient history from their perspective.

[Tay051173096]

Mortals can't become Daemonic Heralds (as in the Codex entries Herald of Tzeentch, Herald of Khorne, etc), they can only reach Daemonhood as Daemon Princes. Other Daemons consider Daemon Princes tainted by their mortal origins and thus inferior, as the Codex states (can't search for the exact page right now).

If talking about being a herald of a God, as in the simple title herald, it's possible. You do something worth being a champion among champions of a God, but not yet worth Daemonhood, you get the fancy title.

A mortal could in a way become a Herald of Nurgle by dying of Nurgle's Rot, being reborn as a Plaguebearer and then earning the rank of a Herald, but he wouldn't be the same person anymore, as his own traits get replaced by those of a Plaguebearer. There's nothing to bind him to what he was when he lived, unlike with the Daemon Princes, who are the still the same being after their ascendancy.

I have to completly disagree with about that.

In the Cain series of books there is a Slannesh cultist who earns daemonhood, not as a prince (other wise cain would have been squashed) but still a daemon on some level. She still has thoughs and memories (and desires...).

Has the fluff changed about how daemons come about? (i.e. those soul that are not destroyed or consumed upon entering the warp carry on. Depending on your souls 'strenght' and desire (rage, survival ect...) places you in a pecking order (or if you are ont alligned possibly a fury) which depending on your actions afterwards can gain you favor with your patron boosting you up (or down) the ladder)

Wonder how you end up as a flamer?

[Spider-pope]

Mortals can't become Daemonic Heralds (as in the Codex entries Herald of Tzeentch, Herald of Khorne, etc), they can only reach Daemonhood as Daemon Princes. Other Daemons consider Daemon Princes tainted by their mortal origins and thus inferior, as the Codex states (can't search for the exact page right now).

If talking about being a herald of a God, as in the simple title herald, it's possible. You do something worth being a champion among champions of a God, but not yet worth Daemonhood, you get the fancy title.

A mortal could in a way become a Herald of Nurgle by dying of Nurgle's Rot, being reborn as a Plaguebearer and then earning the rank of a Herald, but he wouldn't be the same person anymore, as his own traits get replaced by those of a Plaguebearer. There's nothing to bind him to what he was when he lived, unlike with the Daemon Princes, who are the still the same being after their ascendancy.

The background disagrees with you. Skulltaker was originally a mortal, at least the fantasy version anyway.

[The Devourer]

In the Cain series of books there is a Slannesh cultist who earns daemonhood, not as a prince (other wise cain would have been squashed) but still a daemon on some level. She still has thoughs and memories (and desires...).

He is still a daemon prince. He may not be a powerful one but a daemon prince is just a mortal whose soul has been strengthened to the point it can exist in the warp.

The background disagrees with you. Skulltaker was originally a mortal, at least the fantasy version anyway.

I don't believe the 40k Skulltaker has any references to being human.

[TrueKin]

Yep, according to the Daemon 'dex, Skulltaker is U'Zuhl, the first Bloodletter ever to be created by Khorne. No human origin whatsoever.

Can't find any mention of Skulltaker's mortal origins in the 7th ed. Fantasy Daemon army book either. So, unless someone shows me a proof of current fluff supporting any pure Daemon's mortal origins, I'll stick to what I know and remember.

Of course, regardless of their many similarities, Fantasy and 40k's Chaos may work in completely different ways.

About mortals and daemonhood:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, p. 46

Very rarely a mortal Champion of Chaos manages to earn the ultimate reward for his deeds and unbending loyalty to one of the Dark Gods - immortality. The Champion becomes a Daemon Prince. -- However, other Daemons consider Daemon Princes to be inferior - deeply and irrevocably inferior tainted by their mortal origins.

I'd also like to point out, there's a rule for which fluff overrules the other:

Codices & Army books > any other publication

Even though the abomination of Grey Knights makes it hard to believe..

What comes to Daemons ending up as, let's say a Flamer, it's as simple as being created as one. Every aligned Daemon is a splinter of its patron God, and no two Daemons are the same. Anything could affect what kind of Daemon one of the Gods might want to create at any given time. At least Slaanesh even affects his Daemons unknowingly, and for example Fiends change as Slaanesh' mood swings. Wouldn't doubt the same working more or less the same way for the other Gods as well.

[Spider-pope]

Yep, according to the Daemon 'dex, Skulltaker is U'Zuhl, the first Bloodletter ever to be created by Khorne. No human origin whatsoever.

Can't find any mention of Skulltaker's mortal origins in the 7th ed. Fantasy Daemon army book either. So, unless someone shows me a proof of current fluff supporting any pure Daemon's mortal origins, I'll stick to what I know and remember.

'Blood For The Blood God' by C.L Werner.

About mortals and daemonhood:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, p. 46

That doesn't account for the origins of Plaguebearers as mortals however. When it comes to who the Chaos Gods want representing them, i would argue there is no hard and fast rules. If Khorne wants U'zbuk'ngflhf, formerly the mortal Barry from Swindon, to be his Herald then he's going to be his herald.

I'd also like to point out, there's a rule for which fluff overrules the other:
Codices & Army books > any other publication
Even though the abomination of Grey Knights makes it hard to believe..

No such rule exists. All publications are equal in the view of GW, and since they are the ones writing the background i'm inclined to follow said view.

What comes to Daemons ending up as, let's say a Flamer, it's as simple as being created as one. Every aligned Daemon is a splinter of its patron God, and no two Daemons are the same. Anything could affect what kind of Daemon one of the Gods might want to create at any given time. At least Slaanesh even affects his Daemons unknowingly, and for example Fiends change as Slaanesh' mood swings. Wouldn't doubt the same working more or less the same way for the other Gods as well.

All Daemons are splinters of their Patron god correct, but it is not just their God that decides their form. The appearance of Daemons in the mortal realm depends on the minds of those who view them. A Daemon in the warp has no form, but when it manifests it does so according to the beliefs of the mortals present. In other words a Bloodletter looks like a Bloodletter because thats how mortals expect them to look.

[TrueKin]

All Daemons are splinters of their Patron god correct, but it is not just their God that decides their form. The appearance of Daemons in the mortal realm depends on the minds of those who view them. A Daemon in the warp has no form, but when it manifests it does so according to the beliefs of the mortals present. In other words a Bloodletter looks like a Bloodletter because thats how mortals expect them to look.

I have to disagree. There have to be certain traits that Daemons of "same kind" share, since without such, there wouldn't be classifications like "Bloodletter". A Daemon has control over its appearance, of course with both Flamers and Horrors as the exception, since they change all the time. In the other hand, it may be what they want. All Daemons might not control their appearance directly, but by forcing a thought into a mortal's mind. The Daemons of Slaanesh and Tzeentch are all about the power of suggestion, after all. So, in a way, they look like what mortals think they look like. You'll never see a Bloodletter as a fluffy little bunny, no matter how badassed you are. (Slaaneshi Daemons are whole another thing here, though)

That doesn't account for the origins of Plaguebearers as mortals however. When it comes to who the Chaos Gods want representing them, i would argue there is no hard and fast rules. If Khorne wants U'zbuk'ngflhf, formerly the mortal Barry from Swindon, to be his Herald then he's going to be his herald.

Fine, I'll look up the Plaguebearers for you... However, Khorne can't just make some random guy his Herald, the Gods can't control realspace directly. They require something to act through, and mostly the "portal" is the Champion gaining a blessing himself. That's why Barry from Swindon won't become Khorne's Herald without first dedicating himself to the God and earning his "promotion". There's also a difference between a herald and a Herald, when talking about Chaos.

Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.34

Plaguebearers are formed from the energy of mortals that died from Nurgle's Rot, the Lord of Decay's most virulent and deadly blessing. The souls of those infected by this disease are slowly leeched into Nurgle's realm, appearing as warty seed pods growing from the cracked branches of gloomy willows. Each pod swells and ripens as the Nurgle's Rot destroyes its host in the real world and the nascent Plaguebearer feeds upon the victim's dying energies.

So, admittedly I was a bit wrong, remembering that Plaguebearers have somewhat mortal origins. As the quote says, they're pure Daemons that are born as a result of Nurgle's Rot.

[Spider-pope]

Fine, I'll look up the Plaguebearers for you... However, Khorne can't just make some random guy his Herald, the Gods can't control realspace directly. They require something to act through, and mostly the "portal" is the Champion gaining a blessing himself. That's why Barry from Swindon won't become Khorne's Herald without first dedicating himself to the God and earning his "promotion". There's also a difference between a herald and a Herald, when talking about Chaos.

I'm not claiming they can make some random bozo a Herald, that's obviously not true otherwise the entire material world would have gone bye bye millenia ago. But if Barry dedicates his life to Khorne, ascends to Daemonhood there is nothing at all to stop Khorne from making him a Herald. Does it happen? Who knows. Has it happened? Only in Fantasy so far. Can it happen? Yes. Because we are talking about entities that are Gods in their own reality. If Khorne want's to take the eddy of warppower that was once Barry, Daemon Prince of Khorne and twist it into a subservient Daemon only capable of carrying out Khornes wishes, there is nothing at all to stop him doing so.

[TheDungen]

Chaos is by its nature chaotic, what is a demonic herald i was under the impression these divisions between demons were a human fabrication in order to impose so sort of order upon chaos.

a human may ascend to beign a demonprince and loose power in the warp and becoem something similar toa herald i supose. or a champion who achaives demonhood may elevate som of his mortla servants to lesser demons in his service. The gifts and punishments of chaos are also impossible to predict, why would all mortals that become demons be equally powerful and big winged creatures? seems very non chaotic.

[The Warmaster]

Also, I think that the plague victims don't become Plaguebearers per se - for me it's more of a case of Plaguebearer using the extreme despair of Nurgle's rot (which is literally a disease of the soul as much as of body) to slowly manifest themselves using the victim's body.

There are canonical sources that go both ways on this one - the Daemons Codex says something close to what you just said, while every other source I've seen that touches the topic says that the infected mortals literally become Plaguebearers, although the soul is devoured in the process. The Liber Chaotica book on Nurgle gives a pretty concise step-by-step description of the transformation.

As for Daemonic Heralds, they're basically just lesser Daemons granted a greater portion of their God's power than normal, which results in them having more intelligence and personality. I guess a person becoming a Herald of Nurgle is very possible, but as TrueKin said, Nurgle's Rot turns every part of you into a Daemon, and the mind is consumed and replaced with a portion of his will and power. There is still the advantage of them being harder to eliminate, which seems to be (according to LC:N, and I think an old Chapter Approved dating back to 2002-2003ish) due to their mortal origins.

[MvS]

I think we need to be careful not fetishise separations of troop types in army lists in relation to the in-narrative stuff about Chaos.

There is a difference between daemons who have essentially grown from the body and/or soul of a mortal and daemons who are just conscious fragments of a Chaos God, but the whole thing about 'ranks' and specific 'jobs' for daemons is mutable at best. This is Chaos we're talking about. Sometimes a daemon prince is more important and powerful than any Greater Daemon and fulfills roles normally associated with such daemons, other times this is reversed. Sometimes a herald is just a fragment of its God or an idea, concept or specific nightmare/fear made manifest, other times it's an 'ascended' mortal. In reality I think it's probably always a cocktail of both to varying degrees.

Every disturbance in the Warp that we refer to as 'Chaos' ultimately comes from the mortal universe. 'Chaos' is a cocktail of mortals' souls and the echoes of thoughts and feelings all whipping around into tempests of ideas and emotion. The Chaos Gods themselves are the largest conglomerations of these emotions, soul fragments and ideas and they are also the largest 'storms'. So they are made of 'stuff' that originated with and in mortals in Realspace. When a God gives a fragment of its power to create a daemon, that 'divine fragment' also, ultimately, had a Realspace source at some point.

Ascended mortals, daemon princes and the like, are more often than not 'transcended' mortal souls that have been added to by a particular God. So the power they have been filled with can also be seen as just a non sentient fragment of that God, just as other daemons are sentient portions of that God.

Then of course there are daemons that are fragments of their god but who don't have their own personality or thoughts at all - they are just small windows to the God in question; avatars of sorts that the God uses to communicate or act directly through. The list of possibilities goes on.

So in answer to the original question of this thread: yes, as frequently or infrequently as we wish.

Keep Chaos chaotic!

[TheDungen]

Good one MvS, chaos is after all the essence of chaos and paradox.

[chriscrowing]

I think folks are getting too het up on the concept of a mortal general being given a title which corresponds to a codex entry daemon. Chill out.

After all, THIS IS CHAOS, do you think that Khorne or Nurgle take a fancy to a mortal and want to elevate them somehow but think Nurgle: "hmn, I can't really do thius because this guy doesn't deserve full on spike Daemon Princedom and there's no codex entry for a second rate blessed champion type herald dude. Damn, I really wish they'd redo our Codex, what do you think brother?"
Tzeenth : "change is good."

In my understanding Chaos are always adding boons and banes to their warriors and worshippers, usually in a very backhanded way or way that actually causes more suffering to the champion than anything else.

If all you want is a nice fluffy story where your commander is called Herald of "Insert God Here" just say he's been 'blessed' with speaking with the voice of his deity at times - have this come across like a mania or speaking in tongues - it makes his forces incredibly devout as they have a living prophet/herald of their God, but it imparts great pain to the Commander, who has no idea what has been said...

It makes NO tabletop difference, so codex geeks can't complain, it's just a nice story to tell yourself...