In Defense of Death-Stars

[wysematt2222]

What about those Deathstars that are quite cost efficient? Deathstar does not have to equal expensive. Take the ubiquitous Inquisitor with Death Cults Assassins in assault transport; it can come in extremely cheap and can be quite hard hitting. That squad routinely rolls TH/SS termies, even fairly equal numbers of them. The unit can come in around the 380pt mark, which puts it on the top range of "normal expensive unit" and on the bottom end of the "eggs in one basket range".

Sure you can blow up the land raider; but to do that before the unit inside will be moved up the field a damaging amount of distance, you will have to throw a disproportionate amount of firepower at it. This unit is not nearly as expensive as what you would consider a regular deathstar, so using it as a fire magnet is reasonable all things considered.

[lantzkev]

except it crumples rather easily compared to a "death star"

[Freman Bloodglaive]

What about those Deathstars that are quite cost efficient? Deathstar does not have to equal expensive. Take the ubiquitous Inquisitor with Death Cults Assassins in assault transport; it can come in extremely cheap and can be quite hard hitting. That squad routinely rolls TH/SS termies, even fairly equal numbers of them. The unit can come in around the 380pt mark, which puts it on the top range of "normal expensive unit" and on the bottom end of the "eggs in one basket range".

Sure you can blow up the land raider; but to do that before the unit inside will be moved up the field a damaging amount of distance, you will have to throw a disproportionate amount of firepower at it. This unit is not nearly as expensive as what you would consider a regular deathstar, so using it as a fire magnet is reasonable all things considered.

Although such a unit is very destructive being toughness 3 with 5++ saves means they lack the durability necessary to be considered a deathstar.

Likewise the Lysander and 7 hammernators in a Crusader at 750 odd points, while durable and vicious in combat don't offer any threat outside 12 inches once the Raider dies.

[Reivax26]

Would Farsight with a full 7 man bodyguard and shield drones mixed in be considered a Deathstar? You have good movement combined with a threat range shooting wise that is quite nice. They would suck in close combat with the exception of Farsight but they could certainly kill some things before they go.

[lantzkev]

That does count, specially if they all have drone controllers =p

[Vipoid]

What about those Deathstars that are quite cost efficient? Deathstar does not have to equal expensive. Take the ubiquitous Inquisitor with Death Cults Assassins in assault transport; it can come in extremely cheap and can be quite hard hitting. That squad routinely rolls TH/SS termies, even fairly equal numbers of them. The unit can come in around the 380pt mark, which puts it on the top range of "normal expensive unit" and on the bottom end of the "eggs in one basket range".

Sure you can blow up the land raider; but to do that before the unit inside will be moved up the field a damaging amount of distance, you will have to throw a disproportionate amount of firepower at it. This unit is not nearly as expensive as what you would consider a regular deathstar, so using it as a fire magnet is reasonable all things considered.

As has already been stated, they're just not survivable enough to be considered a Death Star. The most likely scenario is that they'll disembark from their raider, mince whatever sacrificial unit they hit, and then get promptly shredded by return-fire in the enemy turn.

As to your general point, I think that mini-Deathstars (or whatever you want to call them) can work. However, they still need to tick the boxes of a normal Deathstar - just on a smaller scale. They should still be able to shread most units in combat, and they should still take a lot of firepower to remove. Essentially, I think such units can work as a distraction - you throw them at your opponent and force him to deal with them. However, unlike a 'true' Deathstar, they won't have eaten most of the points in your army, so you should have pleanty of stuff left to back them up, claim objectives and the like.

Anyway, that's the idea, but offhand I can't think of a unit that matches the description.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

As has already been stated, they're just not survivable enough to be considered a Death Star. The most likely scenario is that they'll disembark from their raider, mince whatever sacrificial unit they hit, and then get promptly shredded by return-fire in the enemy turn.

As to your general point, I think that mini-Deathstars (or whatever you want to call them) can work. However, they still need to tick the boxes of a normal Deathstar - just on a smaller scale. They should still be able to shread most units in combat, and they should still take a lot of firepower to remove. Essentially, I think such units can work as a distraction - you throw them at your opponent and force him to deal with them. However, unlike a 'true' Deathstar, they won't have eaten most of the points in your army, so you should have pleanty of stuff left to back them up, claim objectives and the like.

Anyway, that's the idea, but offhand I can't think of a unit that matches the description.

Would the Belial terminator command squad (all thunder hammers with cyclone, apothecary and standard) count? They can dish it out in combat, do something at range, shrug off a fair amount of low AP fire, and are also quite resistant to small arms fire for 290 points. Okay it's only one squad, but it ticks most of the boxes. A similar one would be the Blood Angel terminator assault squad with attached Sanguinary Priest in terminator armour, but of course that lacks a ranged option and its special rules rely on a single wound independent character.

[Gaargod]

Depends on how you define death star. Personally, I'd say anything under about 500pts, before transports, just doesn't count. This is why 5/6x TH/SS termies are standard units, not death stars. 10 Paladins with library + draigo is a deathstar.

So let's look at viable deathstars, shall we?

Nob Bikers + warboss
Easily rock in at 700 points or more (considering each basic nob is 45pts before gear). They're fairly fast, with biker speed, and reasonably survivable with 4+/5++/FNP + permanent 4+ cover (/3+ from turboboosting). Hit like all kinds of silliness in combat. Shooting is ok due to lots of dakkaguns + kombi weapons, but not lighting the world on fire (certainly anything beyond paper aeroplanes doesn't care). Wound shenanigans are annoying, and increase survivability. Massive bonus - are troops due to the warboss, and with such huge bases + speed, can often conga line objectives.
Problem is, they really, really hate S8 weapons. They'll only get a 4+ save, at best, and 50pts+ die per shot, and you can't allocate wound shenanigans.

Jetlock councils + farseer
Around the 700pts mark too. Very, very quick with eldar jetbikes rule. Very survivable with 3+/4++ and fortune. Hit extremely hard versus vehicles with witchblades, but not really *that* effective against infantry due to not being power weapons. Destructor spam can rape infantry. Can't claim objectives.
Main problem is the heavy reliance on fortune, that makes them so survivable in the first case. And there's now a lot of things that make fortune not reliable enough (mostly the very common librarians and rune priests). Can also be tarpitted by a unit with good armour saves.

Incubi with archon in raider
~500pts (+Also effectively need to pay extra 50pts+ for haemonculus who'll stay in raider and do nothing (and is an easy KP).) Just no. 3+/FNP is nice, and they hit respectably hard with A2 S4 I5 power weapons (S5 if furious charging), but any sort of power weapons (or low Ap / high S shooting) messes them up something terrible. Totally reliant on vehicle to get them there - which can be problematical, considering it's a paper aeroplane. On foot, they at least have fleet to get them somewhere faster, but still... 13-18" threat. Not scoring.

Hammernators in raider
500pts ish + price of independent characters. Not even worth thinking about. Sure, they'll live, but once the raider is gone, you're down to a 12" threat radius. And are slow. As. Hell. Can't even sweeping advance your won combat if you somehow managed to pull off a multi-assault. Nor can they score.
> Sub topic of deepstriking termies. They at least don't have the potential problem of footslogging all game if their raider is gone, but then you suffer all the usual problems of reserving your death star.
> Termies without good access to storm shields (i.e. chaos) have it even worse. Much lower invul saves means you really, really suffer against AP2, so they make your transport even more vital. Tzeentch termies are at least more survivable, but still not good.
> Blood angel FNP termies are in a better place, as they're a lot tougher to mass fire/attacks. Lightning claw termies with S5 on charge hurt too, if you want to mix and match. Of course, taking out the priest makes the unit back to square one.

Thunderdoggies with wolf lord
About 500pts. At least as cavalry, they have a very reasonable charge range of 19-24". Lots of damage in combat potential. Suffer from no ranged options, and not actually being 'that' survivable (T5 3+ W2 is nice, but hardly unkillable. Wolf Lord with bear saga helps a lot). Can't score, of course.

Paladins with draigo
Many, many, many points. At least with 4 psycannons you have a good threat radius, but seriously... Effectively becomes a case of 'feed unit to them per turn' and wipe the floor with the rest of your much, much smaller army around them. They also hate S8 with a burning passion, especially S8 Ap2 / ignoring armour / generic instant kill effects, as they lose all the many points in one go. Dark Eldar should just giggle if they see this army played against them. CAN score - might even be able to conga line 2 objectives (although not hugely easy, as they're slow as hell. Especially as they rarely run).

Farsight deathstar
Just no.

Necrons
Really haven't looked at any of their deathstars. Definitely seem different - can't imagine the combat potential being sky high, unless lots of lords with warscythes are involved, but should be enough to beat off all the most dedicated assault units. Saying that, can't see shooting being 'that' great either - I mean, gauss is fine and all, but hardly presents that much pain. Teleportation would obviously help a great deal, as would night fighting. Guessing they're more looking at survivability/points denial than actual damage dealing - which is interesting, but problematical.

[Reivax26]

Why no on the Farsight Deathstar unit? If you had to pick a Tau deathstar then it would have to be the choice. The damn thing would have more shots than any other deathstar and it would have better range on average than any of them. For me a Deathstar unit is viable if it can dictate the way your opponent has to play against you. If people see Nob Bikers coming up a flank they are going to move away from it and shoot at them. If in a Land Raider then people are going to try to shoot it apart.

By that definition then the Farsight unit is a Deathstar because against anyone running light armor there is no way in hell they are coming up that side of the board.

[Askari]

Farsight Deathstar, while having advantages over most deathstars - greater threat range, no need to assault to do damage. They're also pretty slow compared to faster moving deathstars like Nob Bikers or Seer Councils, and, as they are very mediocre in assault, will fold to the aforementioned assault deathstars.

There's also the point that it does nothing better than several seperate units of Crisis suits wouldn't do better, and is more vulnerable to return fire for the same reason.

[Vipoid]

Why no on the Farsight Deathstar unit? If you had to pick a Tau deathstar then it would have to be the choice.

And that's where the problem starts - *if* you had to pick a deathstar. You don't have to, and in this case there is no competative reason to do so.

It would be a bit like me saying "If you had to build a Tau close-combat army, Aun'Va would be your go-to guy."

The damn thing would have more shots than any other deathstar and it would have better range on average than any of them. For me a Deathstar unit is viable if it can dictate the way your opponent has to play against you. If people see Nob Bikers coming up a flank they are going to move away from it and shoot at them. If in a Land Raider then people are going to try to shoot it apart.

By that definition then the Farsight unit is a Deathstar because against anyone running light armor there is no way in hell they are coming up that side of the board.

I don't think people are arguing that the Farsight squad isn't a deathstar - just that is isn't a *good* deathstar - even compared to other deathstars.

Consider this: shooting lots of weapons at a large squad is fine. However, shooting lots of weapons at 2 squad members is very inefficient. Now, there's a simple way around this - you split squads into smaller squads. So, in this case, rather than having Farsight and 7 crisis suit bodyguards, you have 3 squads of 3 crisis suits (I believe you can get ~3 crisis suits with missile pods, plasma rifles and multi-trackers, just by getting rid of Farsight). So, in this case, not only would you have more firepower (since farsight's lone plasma-rifle has been effectively replaced with 3 plasma rifles and 3 missile pods), you can target different units with it in the same turn.

I suppose you could make an argument for fielding Farsight if you've already used up your elite slots, but even then, 2 standard commanders with bodyguard seems like a better (not to mention more efficient) choice.

Essentially, I just don't see what the Farsight deathstar is bringing to the table, that couldn't be done better by a few small units of crisis suits.

[archonisthebesthqever]

As has already been stated, they're just not survivable enough to be considered a Death Star. The most likely scenario is that they'll disembark from their raider, mince whatever sacrificial unit they hit, and then get promptly shredded by return-fire in the enemy turn.

As to your general point, I think that mini-Deathstars (or whatever you want to call them) can work. However, they still need to tick the boxes of a normal Deathstar - just on a smaller scale. They should still be able to shread most units in combat, and they should still take a lot of firepower to remove. Essentially, I think such units can work as a distraction - you throw them at your opponent and force him to deal with them. However, unlike a 'true' Deathstar, they won't have eaten most of the points in your army, so you should have pleanty of stuff left to back them up, claim objectives and the like.

Anyway, that's the idea, but offhand I can't think of a unit that matches the description.

I think there is a certain unit in the de codex that suits in ur description:the beasts.I personally run a big blob of 18 beasts (4masters,5flocks,9khym) and they really seem to hit hard.Prob is that i have only use them in two games so far so i am not the most experienced person with them.In my eyes they are a very survivable unit,fairly cheap(231 points),fast and very killy.Main weakness is not being scoring.I also run baron sathonix with them for the stealth bonus and ofcourse the +1 deploy roll.

[Konovalev]

Anyway, that's the idea, but offhand I can't think of a unit that matches the description.

I'd offer up bloodcrushers of khorne in the chaos demons codex as a deathstar lite. 200pts gets you 4 bloodcrushers, 2 wounds each, specced for wound shenanigans, space marine armor save, higher strength, toughness, and weapon skill than a space marine, packing power weapons, furious charge, fearless, eternal warrior, and a terminator invulnerable save.

Not overly fast, but can deepstrike on turn 1.

[Vipoid]

I think there is a certain unit in the de codex that suits in ur description:the beasts.I personally run a big blob of 18 beasts (4masters,5flocks,9khym) and they really seem to hit hard.Prob is that i have only use them in two games so far so i am not the most experienced person with them.In my eyes they are a very survivable unit,fairly cheap(231 points),fast and very killy.Main weakness is not being scoring.I also run baron sathonix with them for the stealth bonus and ofcourse the +1 deploy roll.

I'd offer up bloodcrushers of khorne in the chaos demons codex as a deathstar lite. 200pts gets you 4 bloodcrushers, 2 wounds each, specced for wound shenanigans, space marine armor save, higher strength, toughness, and weapon skill than a space marine, packing power weapons, furious charge, fearless, eternal warrior, and a terminator invulnerable save.

Not overly fast, but can deepstrike on turn 1.

I'd agree with both of these.

DE beast squads can be excellent distraction units - they can take a lot of fire (especially if you're careful with how you allocate wounds), and can still do a lot of damage in combat, relative to their cost).

Bloodcrushers seem amazing for their cost - 40pts for WS, S, T 5, 2 wounds (and EW), a 3+/5+ save, 3 power weapon attacks and furious charge.

My Daemon-playing friend uses a squad of 5 bloodcrushers, led by Skullcrusher on a Juggernaught. It's very difficult to take down, and there are few units that it can't mince in combat.

[Theocracity]

Really haven't looked at any of their deathstars. Definitely seem different - can't imagine the combat potential being sky high, unless lots of lords with warscythes are involved, but should be enough to beat off all the most dedicated assault units. Saying that, can't see shooting being 'that' great either - I mean, gauss is fine and all, but hardly presents that much pain. Teleportation would obviously help a great deal, as would night fighting. Guessing they're more looking at survivability/points denial than actual damage dealing - which is interesting, but problematical.

The Necron Tactica thread I linked earlier goes into some in-depth discussion of several Necron Death Star options, each of which fills slightly different roles. It's interesting stuff, as they have really unusual setups and don't act like the typical face-smashers we know. It's interesting stuff.

[Kelanen]

Ok, so since the beginng of 5th edition there has been a rise of a particular type of unit.

Ony someone that's only played since 5th could say that. Deathstars have been around since RT, and present in games before 40k existed. They are a fact of pointbuy games, and bespoke unit rules.

[Commandojimbob]

Here is one for a giggle, talking Necrons :

Overlorad (1) : Warscythe, Phylactery, Mindshackle, Sempiternal, Phase Shifter
Overlorad (2) : Warscythe, Phylactery, Mindshackle, Sempiternal, Phase Shifter
Lord (1) : Warscythe, Mindshackle, Sempiternal, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
Lord (2) : Warscythe, Mindshackle, Sempiternal, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
Harbinger of Destruction (1) : Gaze of Flame, Solar Pulse
Harbinger of Destruction (2) : Solar Pulse
10x Lychguard

1240pts

Res Orbs on Lords rather than Overlords, as ICs can be picked out. T5 all round. Lots of 2+/3++/4+++ . Mindshackles all round for fun. 2 Solar Pulse to protect for a 2 turns to get into position.

It comes out probably the same as Draigo / Paladins / Libby - would be a fun head to head but I think GK would win .

[Vipoid]

Here is one for a giggle, talking Necrons :

Overlorad (1) : Warscythe, Phylactery, Mindshackle, Sempiternal, Phase Shifter
Overlorad (2) : Warscythe, Phylactery, Mindshackle, Sempiternal, Phase Shifter
Lord (1) : Warscythe, Mindshackle, Sempiternal, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
Lord (2) : Warscythe, Mindshackle, Sempiternal, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
Harbinger of Destruction (1) : Gaze of Flame, Solar Pulse
Harbinger of Destruction (2) : Solar Pulse
10x Lychguard

1240pts

Res Orbs on Lords rather than Overlords, as ICs can be picked out. T5 all round. Lots of 2+/3++/4+++ . Mindshackles all round for fun. 2 Solar Pulse to protect for a 2 turns to get into position.

It comes out probably the same as Draigo / Paladins / Libby - would be a fun head to head but I think GK would win .

I assume that the Harbingers are meant to be in different squad(s).

Firstly, why 2 res orbs?

Second, phlactery is crap.

Third, is it really worth 60pts apiece to give 1-wound sargeants a 2+/3+ save? I'd hesitate to give my 3W-Overlords that.

Finally, are you aware that this deathstar costs 1130pts (not including the crypteks)? I mean, even by deathstar standards it's a bloated, unwieldy, mess of a unit.

[blurrymadness]

IMO, if the unit costs 350+ before transports; it's probably a "deathstar." The typical unit IMO should be around 200 points (after transport) so you have something effective but not expensive; If you can get it lower then by all means. If it's not a transport + unit; I'd expect the vehicle to be between 70-130ish before it starts really becoming expensive.

Thus, 350 is already an unweildly amount of points *especially* without a transport. Anyone trying to say units need all sorts of classifications to be a deathstar is basically just trying to sound intelligent; there's no need to over-classify points-sinks in 40k. Deathstar is not a specific term; but a generic term that basically means "you're spending too many points on that unit." Sometimes it's ok (such as the IC you attach you need to have to make the army work (Warboss for troop nobz, Vulken for meltas, Logan for troop termies, blah blah)

To set an *actual* point limit, or to try and tell people *based off of nothing but your own opinion about an ill-defined unit type* that 600+ point units that aren't as tough as other deathstars or aren't as good in assault are somehow not deathstars, is retarded. There is no evidence and it's not worth discussing.


Deathstars are point sinks that end up taking a third of your list (or more) after ICs/Transports, and thus make your list have only a relatively small amount of support to fend off the enemy's army until it goes to work. They also are like the Deathstar because they're your backbone in lists like that. It basically IS about how many points you spend on the unit; if you make a 600pt 30 Ard Boy, Cybork, with Grotznik unit then it's a deathstar; even though it sucks. If anybody argues differently; go get a job; seriously.


Merely having a tough unit (like 4 bloodcrushers) or something doesn't make it a "deathstar"; it makes it a tough unit; *that's it.* Otherwise *every* daemon list ever made ever forever has like 3+ deathstars; which doesn't make any sense. Good units exist; deathstars exist, they can be one and the same but it is unlikely because deathstars are generally *not good.*

[Vipoid]

Merely having a tough unit (like 4 bloodcrushers) or something doesn't make it a "deathstar"; it makes it a tough unit; *that's it.* Otherwise *every* daemon list ever made ever forever has like 3+ deathstars; which doesn't make any sense. Good units exist; deathstars exist, they can be one and the same but it is unlikely because deathstars are generally *not good.*

If you're referring to my posts, I believe I referred to such units as 'mini-Deathstars' - i.e., units that are still powerful and durable, but don't take up as large a chunk of your army as 'true' Deathstars.