Recommend me a ruleset for 30 Years War

[sigur]

Hey, for several years I've had this inexplicable interest in the Thirty Years War and it seems to have started itching me again.

So does anyone of you have suggestions for a 30 Years War set of wargames rules? I was leaning towards larger battles rather than skirmish rulesets so maybe Black Powder (which isn't unlike Warmaster as far as I heard) or maybe a more specific ruleset like Father Tilly? ....or I just wait until Pike&Shotte is released?

Anyhow, I'd be grateful for any suggestions and thanks in advance!

[emperorpenguin]

I'm waiting for Pike and Shotte myself.

[kublai]

There is ;Field of Glory: Renaissance, http://www.ospreypublishing.com/stor..._9781849082235 , but I heard that it is more suited for 15mm, but maybe you are into that.

[redben]

Pike & Shotte rather than Black Powder is the rules you'd use from Warlord. It gets released next month. I might be wrong about this (so someone correct me if I am) but I believe the ECW book from Warhammer Historical would cover 30YW.

[sigur]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'm fairly sure that I'll wait for Pike&Shotte (which should be out in a month just in time for Salute). I know that FOG is very popular but I just heard a less than glowing review of it from a source in kind of trust. So I'll wait for the first quick impressions of Pike&Shotte cropping up and place an order at Warlord games then. Maybe I'll even try to get someone into the idea of playing that game with me until then.

It's a bit embarassing but I actually have no idea how WHB works. I assume it's basically a modified Warhammer Fantasy Battles?

[redben]

Pretty much. It plays a bit different once you stripped out the magic, monsters, overpowered characters, etc., but it's based on the same mechanics.

[kublai]

If you dont mind sigur, I would like to know which minis you will be useing for this project ? Warlord Games ? And will you post them here ? I would love to see some historicals done by you.

[Codsticker]

It's a bit embarassing but I actually have no idea how WHB works. I assume it's basically a modified Warhammer Fantasy Battles?

I have a copy of WFB ECW and I quite like it. I understand that it is based on WFB 4th. so most of the Old Ones Love it . I think it would be quite easy to copy and paste units from the lists to the armies of the 30 years War and perhaps use the Royalist Scots for the Eastern European armies. You would have to house rule the Swedish Regimental gun system (whatever it's called...) but I think it would work fine.

[sigur]

I see. Well, I guess I'll just go for WHFB and suffer through the magic phase, the presence of monsters and overpowered characters if I get that itch.

@kublai: Well, I'd probably stick to Warlord's 28mm plastics mostly because 28mm figures are pretty. However, the whole thing isn't very realistic as I'd have to find people to play with (and I'm having problems getting more than one of my friends to play even 40k with me and even that got a fair bit harder recently) and I'm notoriously short on time but I'd love to do that project some time.

@Codsticker: Thanks for the additional info. It being based on 4th edition WHFB is giving me a little more confidence in the system. There were a few specialities about some formations and tactics in there which would be nice to have rules for.

..that's why I guess I'll stick to waiting for Pike&Shottee. However, I listened to the review of Black Powder again today which raised a few concerns - the system is said to require a lot of models and it was not advised to use 28mm scale simply because the tables would have to be huge due to the speed at which units potentially move. Can anyone confirm/falsify that based on your own experiences?

[Gwyddyon]

I've heard from some people that Black Powder plays better at large scales, but as long as you aren't trying to use it for skirmish level stuff you'll probably be fine. Another option that I've heard very good things about but not played is Forlorn Hope from Partizan Press. It's an ECW ruleset but I understand they have a TYW version or variation as well. My FLGS stocks it, but they stock a LOT of historical rules, so it may or may not be tricky to find a copy where you are. Here's the Partizan Press website: http://www.caliverbooks.com/Partizan...tizan_FH.shtml

[Codsticker]

..that's why I guess I'll stick to waiting for Pike&Shottee. However, I listened to the review of Black Powder again today which raised a few concerns - the system is said to require a lot of models and it was not advised to use 28mm scale simply because the tables would have to be huge due to the speed at which units potentially move. Can anyone confirm/falsify that based on your own experiences?

One of the aspects of Warlord's P&S rules that I am excited about is that it is supposed to cover quite a large time frame; I believe from the very beginnings of that "style" of fighting, the last years of the 15th. century, up to the end of the 17th. century.

As far as figure scale goes, I understand that both Black Powder and Hail Ceasar are best suited to large battles in 28 mm (hundreds of figs on 12X6 tables- that sort of thing ) but works at smaller battles on smaller tables. I imagine the P&S rules will be similar.

Edit: or you could ignore my post and just read Gwddyon's .

[6mmhero]

Well Black Powder looks very impressive in 28mm with lots of figures. However in this scale you will need a big table otherwise you might find the rules a little too stripped down. Will be interesting to see how pike and shotte plays in this regard.

We played a big Seven Years War game using black powder and 6mm figures and it looked great and played very well.

If you are doing Thirty Years War in 28mm you will need a fair amount of units to get the feel of the period right.

[Xelee]

It's going to surprise no one that I am waiting for Baroque Impetus to come out, this year.

The warlord figs, especially the Cuirassiers, got me keen on the period.

[sigur]

Thanks for the further input, guys. Yes, I got these worries about 28mm scale posibly being too big when I saw a blog last night in which someone posted some pictures of his TYW games played in 28mm and he had this tercio - which should consist of 1500 to 2000 men if I got that right - with about 20 to 30 models in it. Now I know that it's not possible to play such a thing on a 1:1 basis but this looked kind of wrong. The models looked fine and pretty and all of that but depicting a large mass of men with 30 models just looks weird, especially at such a large scale. Warlord's plastics look really nice and are well-priced but if a game ends up looking kind of daft it's not that much fun and I don't have a large table at my disposal. I play on a 6' by 4' mat.

[mrtn]

sigur, I'm interested in hearing if you develop your ideas further. I have some interest in this period myself, bought some Imperial Warlord models today, from Maelstrom's April Sale.

[colhodg]

Have been playing the ECW version of Perfect Captain - free download, very adaptable system. Would likely work for what you want though require the same investment of time/research as converting the Warhammer ECW rules to what you want. Sounds like you may want to look at 6mm or 10mm models if you want that grand scale, personally i'd suggest 10mm stuff from old glory - warmaster scale and cheap to boot though gather clearing the flash can be a pain, still less time consuming than basing individual figures (pendraken do a nice line in this scale if you disagree).

As with moth historcal games (with the exception of Warhammer based ones) you use bases of minis as opposed to individual ones so the actual number and scale of minis you use is entirely down to you. Pike and Shotte version of blackpowder is likely to be your most comprehensive option though it certainly does lend itself to large games with a lot of units.

[sigur]

@mrtn: Cheers, I have no idea where I'm going with this myself really as none of my friends have the slightest interest in that era or in getting into another tabletop wargame and the handful of historicals players around here play either FoW, napoleonics or 7 years war. I'll have to see how this develops due to the release of Pike&Shotte though. I pondered getting some 28mm TYW stuff from that sale at Maelstrom, probably should have, but ended up with getting an Infinity model and two boxes of Wargames Factory Skeletons. Don't ask, it was a weird week.

@colhodg: Thanks for the info. I downloaded the ECW version of Perfect Captain (that's the Very Civile Actions one, right?) and definately will give it a read. You see, that's another problem of mine with this whole idea - Warlord's plastics are beautiful but on the other hand I have already a rather large collection of 28mm fantasy and sci-fi stuff, I actually feel a certain amount of dread thinking of painting another army of over 100 28mm models even if they're really pretty and on top of that all, I don't have large enough tables for using 28mm with these battle-scale rulesets.

Today I found this blog entry with some major eyecandy of the Battle of Lützen in 28mm. Looks beautiful, don't get me wrong, but looking at the individual units it just looks kind of weird to me given how many guys they're supposed to depict. Maybe I'm too much in the 1:1 mindset but I'm leaning towards 10mm or 20mm these days. But as I said, I'd rest more calmly if I had someone to play with really so I guess I'll try to get that done first, when agree on scale and then go on from there.


edit (2 seconds later): Oooor, I just go out and buy some shiny toys....

[colhodg]

lol i'm exactly the same - had no interest in ECW then a guy in the local shop sold me a discounted box of warlord figures, now i want 2 complete 28mm armies...

The very civil actions download gives you the unit cards for everything (and a complete campaign system) but the the actual rulebook is packaged with the spanish fury download (they converted it). Even if you don't game with the rules it gives a fair impression of how most historicals play and whilst it would need a bit of work its still a pretty simple system. Only the shooting chart seems a bit fiddly when adding together your shooting total but you get used to it pretty quickly after a couple of games - usually comes down to needing a 4 to hit if stationary or a 5/6 if a small unit or you have moved.

The officer tokens are a nice touch and alternating units makes for some interesting tactics and situations.

[Axel]

One of the aspects of Warlord's P&S rules that I am excited about is that it is supposed to cover quite a large time frame;

I somehow fear that the label "Italian Wars" is just tagged on to cover more ground, but is not really covered during the developement phase. There is a lot of change between Fornovo and Ceresole. Since WG has no minis covering that era, and simply skipped the intermediate Religious wars (especially the French) I must assume that "Pike & Shotte" will cater mainly to the ECW and TYW. Which should be fine with Sigur.

Thanks for the further input, guys. Yes, I got these worries about 28mm scale posibly being too big [,,,]. I play on a 6' by 4' mat.

My advice: collect what you love to paint.
Big battles are so rare that you need a seperate room and a day off anyway for the full monty, and scenarios can be played out on a smaller table (like just the flank of a larger battle, etc).

[Griefbringer]

Brief overview of the Warlord rules by somebody who has got them already:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=265195