Most Chapters only have a handful of Dreadnaughts if any at any given time, due to the cost of maintaining them with the exception of First Foundings like the Space Wolves and etc, so I don't think they are considered active parts of the Chapter.
Most Chapters only have a handful of Dreadnaughts if any at any given time, due to the cost of maintaining them with the exception of First Foundings like the Space Wolves and etc, so I don't think they are considered active parts of the Chapter.
Much. For example, Space Marine ships are almost fully automatized with servitors, each ship has a few hundred "human" crew and no Astartes unless specifically assigned. I believe in BFG it was stated that many Space Marine ships have one Astartes assigned from one of the companies to act as a captain of the ship and everyone else aboard (except for the actual Astartes detachment the ship is carrying to battle) is either serf or automatized servitor. Likewise vehicles do not have a separate "pilot pool". All tactical marines are trained as drivers and gunners for pretty much all types of vehicles so when the strike force is formed and they get their vehicles they are usually assigned drivers and gunners from one of the reserve companies.Originally Posted by ashendant
Its also worth noting that a Space Marine SOP is to act as Strike Forces. A Strike Force is usually based around one of the combat companies (2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th) but it is not the whole company, nor only the company. A Strike Force is an ad hoc organization formed for the mission at hand and usually includes marines from 1st, 10th and one or several of the reserve companies (6th, 7th, 8th and/or 9th).
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I distinctly remember a bfg article in white dwarf yonks ago which agreed with you here, and said that the few space marines on their ships are from the reserve companies or whichever battle company they are transporting, rather than from a separate pool. Unfortunately I threw out my 300+ issues a while back when I needed attic space so I can't go back and find it. I suspect that chapters are very close to the 1000 marines when at full strength with just the hq/chaplains/librarium/dreadnoughts/initiates not included in the above. I also think that very few if any chapters have the full 10 strike cruisers/3 battlebarges they are allowed in bfg so estimates of how many crew they might need are probably hard to work out. I imagine that when a ship/dreadnought/relic is lost it's not just a case of building another one, but waiting until the auguries say it is a good idea (which might be never), even assuming they can be built in-house and don't need to be requested from the mechanicum.
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The 3rd ed Marines codex seems to suggest otherwise- there's a separate set of marines assigned to the fleet.
And in 5e Chronus seems to command the "vehicle pool"
On Bolter & Chainsword an enormous amount of scorn was poured on the idea that every vehicle crewman is actually from the reserve companies- and that it's more likely that all 10 companies can deploy fully, and there are marines on top of that crewing the vehicles.
Because otherwise, if every Battle Company went to war fully vehicle mounted, the reserve companies would be badly depleted.
'To Cleanse The Stars' in White Dwarf 235 (UK) [the introduction of Space Marine ships/fleets into Battlefleet Gothic] makes no mention of where the crews come from. What information is given on crew numbers and composition (pg.45) is exactly the same as that in 'Space Marine Fleets in battlefleet Gothic' in Battlefleet Gothic: Armada (pg.20).
I've yet to see ANY actual evidence that vehicle crews are drawn from the Reserve/Battle Companies.
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I remebered that i did the serf article on the lexi using the first founding as a base
Chapter serfs are the normal human bondsmen and servants of a Space Marine Chapter. The Space Marines themselves are too few in number to manage all the tasks required to maintain all the aspects of the Chapter, its fleet, fortress, and other myriad aspects. It is the serfs who perform most of these vital functions.
A Chapter's fortress-monastery is home to a large population of these hereditary servants. Although they occupy a humble position, they are loyal members of the Chapter. They are generally descended from individuals selected as potential recruits to the Chapter, but in the end, judged unfit to become actual Space Marines.
The serfs are still inducted into the Chapter cult, and do not begrudge the status they could have obtained. They are generally well treated within the Chapter, are educated and trained to a much higher standard than most other servants of the Imperium, and have access to a better range of equipment.
When Space Marines go to war, the serfs maintain the fortress and defend it from attack. It is unlikely that the Chapter Serfs would ever be deployed in battle alongside their Space Marine masters, as their human limitations would be incapable of keeping pace. They would still be trained to levels at least equivalent to that of the Imperial Guard, expected to assist in the defense of chapter assets such as fortresses and vessels. Indeed when facing down a Space Marine Battle Barge it would be a chapter serf manning the gun turrets, as a full Space Marine would be too valuable for the task.
It's not that one I'm thinking of, but Fanatic Magazine 6: Space Marine Fleets (Matt Keefe, Andy Chambers, Gav Thorpe)
So it's there- just not in the original Marine Fleets article but in later Fanatic Magazine expansions.Fleet Organization
.....
While these serfs make up the vast bulk of the crews aboard Space Marine vessels, the Master of the Fleet also has a number of Space Marines under his command, who act as high ranking offers aboard the fleet's vessels, providing captains for individual vessels, leading specialised boarding parties, or otherwise overseeing the dedicated Serfs who provide the bulk of a vessel's manpower.
The exact organisation of those Space Marines tasked with crewing the fleet varies from Chapter to Chapter. In some cases, it will be the Master of the Fleet's own company who provide these Marines, with each of his veteran captains acting as captain to a different vessel within the fleet while their own squad members each man a different vital area within that same vessel. In other cases, squads from different companies within the Chapter may be charged with manning the fleet, serving under the command of the Master of the Fleet in just the same way as a Space Marine battle force may be made up of squads drawn from several companies across the Chapter under the battle-command of a single, nominated force commander.
At an absolute minimum, a Master of the Fleet needs eighty to a hundred Marines to properly crew the fleet, its Thunderhawks and its landing craft, and most Chapters have measures to ensure that a standing force of this size is permanently available to the Master of the Fleet, be it his own company in its entirety, or squads from across the Chapter left permanently at his disposal.
On vehicle crews- that source is Imperial Armour Volume II: Space Marines & the Inquisition: page 10:
When a Strike Force is dispatched on a mission its commander will request assets from the central armoury. The Master of the Forge, in consultation with the Chapter Master's Headquarters and the Strike Force commander, will allocate vehicles suitable for the mission.
The crews for armoured vehicles are all full Space Marines, and are often referred to as Custodians of the vehicle. Most crews are drawn from the Tactical squads of the Chapters' Sixth and Seventh Companies. All Space Marines have some training in the use of armoured vehicles. Driving Rhinos and armoured formation tactics are part of a recruit's basic training. Later, Space Marines specialise in armoured operations and tactics, being trained in the operation of larger vehicles and basic maintenance.
Last edited by Iron_Lord; 31-03-2012 at 18:14.
Thanks for digging those up Iron_Lord.
On a general note I'm pretty sure the discussion about this will never end. There are always people who say the fluff (as written) is wrong because they think the chapters should have thousands and thousands of marines to function. I'm not one of them so I'll happily go with how the fluff is actually written. In fact I actually happen to like the idea that marines are really the "elite-of-the-elite". Few and far between and with a huge machinery of ordinary humans supporting each marine. To me that actually sounds more "realistic" than a breed of billions of self-sufficient transhuman superwarriors. But hey, I guess people prefer different things.
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the problem is that the fluff is contradictory. We are TOLD they are one way, but then SHOWN (by their actions in stories) to be another way. The discussion is not about people disagreeing with the fluff so much as trying to reconcile it with itself.
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Is it not likely to depend on the chapter?
I do recall reading that vehicle drivers and pilots are often from reserve companies somewhere although it was a long time ago. But also I remember that in the latest Gaunt novel the Space Marimes Assault Ram pilot was a servitor whom from what I recall was hard wired into the thing.
On top of that I cannot see any real reason why Rhinos and other vehicles could not be driven by scouts or more human crews if needed as those vehicles are also used by other organisations (Arbites for example.) who are not augmented.
Of course marines would be bigger and so the seating would be different but then again changing a seat is not going to be a big thing for a tech marine to accomplish prior to deployment is it? So whilst it maybe ideal or even desirable to have everything operated by marines, if needs must I am sure a chapter serf would do as long as they know what and how to do it.
Even with the whole 'relic' thing, if they can assign a relic as big as a Strike Cruiser to a bunch of chapter serfs and servitors I am sure they would have no such concerns about assigning a Rhino.
So sum up, whilst some are no doubt assigned from reserve companies, others are probably tech marines and yet others are probably serfs or scouts or some other trusted human.
Also to add the Iron Hands have Clan Leaders that are Dreads or did not sure on the fluff change there.
Only some of them, not all IIRC.
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Dreads wouldn't count.
There is nothing wrong with a big support apparatus supporting a few highly elite marines. That's how special forces work as far as I know. The problem is with what the marines do. I don't care how super-elite you are, charging around the galaxy as a few hundred men operating on your own is just a complete waste of resources and would effectively render the marines completely useless if they face any opposition that doesn't immediately surrender. If they were working as the special strike arm of the Imperial Guard/Army it would work just fine. On their own they really should be unable to do almost everything they supposedly do. Even if you deploy an entire Chapter there is no way that's enough soldiers to pacify a whole planet (probably not even a city). But GW have never been good with numbers so it basically comes down to wilful suspension of disbelief. IMO 40k works fine as long as you don't think about it. If you start to actually look at the details it all breaks down very fast so any numbers question is really "whatever you feel like". There won't be a satisfying, coherent, sensible answer to find.
With the piloting of ground vehicles I always just assumed that the Marines that piloted them did not count in the 1000 battle brother pool or that the vehicles were piloted by the chapter serfs / servitors.
With the Dreadnoughts I guess they are already dead so the Marines can have as many as they want. I would however find it funny if a Chapter had more Dreadnoughts than a full Chapter of Space Marines.
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And that's great until you look at instances were entire chapters have been deployed to warzones. And you realise that you're taking an elite soldier off the line and turning him into a taxi driver.
I did work it out a couple of years ago - to have everything a chapter needs to be done, done by members of the 1,000, you're down to something like the first company, the second company, and a couple of squads of the third left to actually do the fighting.
Personally, I'd say no, Dreadnoughts don't count - they're outside of the companies and assigned as necessary (although some might fight with a particular company more often than with any other).
Outside of the Ultramarines and the chapters that follow their rigid rules, I don't think most chapters spend much effort reporting anything to the bean counters at the Administratum. In fact, many of them such as the Space Wolves and Blood Angels would probably be far too terrifying for any of the clerks and jerks types to even think of visiting them and counting the marines. For all the occasional fluff about chapters being watched by the Inquisition, I doubt anyone has balls big enough to march into a chapter house and demand to see the personnel roster.
Having shot off my mouth on the relative authority of the Administratum to monitor chapter strength, as for the original question I think the 1000 man limit applies to the 10 line companies. The dreadnoughts, drivers, Tech Marines, Apothecaries, Librarians, captains and senior crew of the strike cruisers, etc are all in addition to them.
Last edited by Mikial; 03-04-2012 at 02:10.
Don't forget, all chapters have household staff/serfs/whatever you want to call them to do all the administrative work, mop the floors, clean out the shower traps...Outside of the Ultramarines and the chapters that follow their rigid rules, I don't think most chapters spend much effort reporting anything to the bean counters at the Administratum. In fact, many of them such as the Space Wolves and Blood Angels would probably be far too terrifying for any of the clerks and jerks types to even think of visiting them and counting the marines. For all the occasional fluff about chapters being watched by the Inquisition, I doubt anyone has balls big enough to march into a chapter house and demand to see the personnel roster.
And the Blood Angels are probably one of the chapters least likely to show two fingers to the Administratum (so long as they can carefully steer them away from certain areas) - the Dark Angels might as well have it as their chapter symbol though, at least as far as the Administratum are concerned.
IMO, there's probably an aspect of self-regulation anyway - chapters will have some level of communication with their successors and progenitor, and if something looks odd, they will probably take it upon themselves to investigate to protect their own honour.
Of course, that doesn't always happen, which is why things like Badab occur.
Agree - I'd even go so far as to say that it's in the codex like that - a headline figure of 1,000 Marines to placate people, but with a subheading lower down detailing all the combat support staff and officer ranks that they need to make them effective.Having shot off my mouth on the relative authority of the Administratum to monitor chapter strength, as for the original question I think the 1000 man limit applies to the 10 line companies. The dreadnoughts, drivers, Tech Marines, Apothecaries, Librarians, captains and senior crew of the strike cruisers, etc are all in addition to them.
Here's how I see things
I think that none of the branches of the Inquisition is legally entitled to enforce the Codex Astartes.
Think about it. The Codex Astartes is a strategy treatise designed for internal use of the newly formed Space Marine Chapters. It's main purpose is to act as a guideline for the hundreds of chapters suddenly deprived of a primarch's brilliant leadership. It is still an unofficial structure that just so happens to have been adopted by the vast majority of Astartes chapters, and each chapter interprets it differently. We know it's not mandatory, since the Space Wolves, for instance, eschew it entirely, and many other Chapters circumvent at least some of the guidelines contained within.
The Codex Astartes is probably not the document that instituted the disbanding of the Astartes Legions. That's probably written down in some obscure edict with just a date and number to identify it, and nobody outside the Administratum ever remembers that. The Codex was more of an appendix to the edict... It was there to ease the transition from Legion to Chapters, and it provided valuable guidelines. The figure of 1000 marines is there only so that a round figure is used to approximate how big a Chapter should be in order not to be seen as a potential threat to the Imperium, while still retaining its fast response capabilities. The fact that some chapters can get away with 2-8 times that number just shows how little the rule can be enforced.
However, the Inquisition (particularly the Ordo Hereticus) is always on the lookout for signs of either deviancy or individuals looking to expand their power base.
The Codex Astartes is, as such, a useful reference point when monitoring a Chapter for signs of deviation or expansion. If the =I= does find something wrong, they can't actually accuse the Chapter Master (or the Chapter itself) of not abiding to the Codex, since, as I've said before, it's an informal code of conduct. But that's okay. That's what words like 'treason', 'heresy' or 'witchcraft' are for...
As a sidenote, since the Space Wolves, Black Templars, and to a lesser extent, the Iron Hands ignore the Codex, the Inquisition can't use it as a reference tool. That's irrelevant, anyway. While they do not adhere to the same structure as other Chapters, any change in their particular divergences for the Codex is just as good an indication of deviancy.
I'd just like to add some fluff from the BA and DA 2nd ed codex, Angels of Death. In that it does not cover vehicle crews though does mention other training and auxiliary marines as being supernumery to the 1000. As to the 6th and 7th being vehicle crews, that is specifically mentioned as being trained in bikes and landspeeders and can be fully depolyed as such - and so most 2nd company land speeders would be 6th or 7th (can't remember which) company marines. The reserve companies support the battle companies more or less on a one for one basis - four battle and four reserve afterall. Current fluff seems to state that a marine learns heavy weapons training in the 9th company, assault training in the 8th, and other warfare in the 6th and 7th along with training in vehicles - being specifically bikes and landspeeders. I believe as vehicles belong to the armoury, then their crews would most likely also belong to the armoury. This does not contradict the fighting strength numbers. The British Army is the same - it's fighting strength does not include the logistics corps for example, or most of the REME (engineers). A driver is not a fighting warrior as such anyway, he is a driver, and so his mechanicum markings could show his belonging to the armoury rather than being a techmarine or adept etc - the company badge equivalent for the armoury is the mechanicum symbol anyway. I assume some scouts that show mechanical aptitude but not sufficiently enough to be sent to mars remain in the armoury. They will have still done their scout service which is basic training in equivalent military terms.
Back to dreadnoughts - as these spend much time slumbering and are not full time battle members, I imagine these are exempt from the 1000 warriors fighting strength. HQ staff and all support personel including cooks etc are all trained to fight but not expected to be deployed to fight and so do not count.
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