Ever Feel Odd About It?

[adamwelton]

Is anyone who joins an Armed Force automatically a murderer? A lot of people think so, yet these people usually believe that someone who kills another for a cause (no matter how unpleasant) is a "freedom fighter". They also often claim that anyone in an organised and official fighting force is a fascist, yet are quite happy to condone murder of civilians by unsanctioned, illegal and morally bankrupt armed groups because their aims are "legitimate" for whatever reason.

We are neither and should be proud of such. Is anyone who plays Chess a regicidal anarchistic warmonger? No, especially as those who would claim such a thing are the ones who usually play such games only in order to reinforce a belief in their superiority over others by dint of their alleged intellect.

Bugger all that. Let's play wargames because it's in our nature to exercise our minds as well as our bodies, and expanding our experiences is the key to human evolution (that religion, which attempts to deny us our rights as humans to play silly games denies) and separates us from all other living creatures.

I'm off to watch "Kelly's Heroes", a war film/farce that anti-war hippies and beatniks approved of because it had a "groovy" soundtrack and great characters that they could identify with. What a strange being the human is.

[redben]

This thread has generated far more discussion than the original post warranted.

[adamwelton]

Sorry. I'll say no more.

[The Devourer]

I don't see the difference between historical and fictional wargaming. The story behind the game and the shape of the plastic models may change but aside from there isn't really any difference. Is someone who plays Space marines saying they want to create a genocidal galactic empire? I fyou can watch a war movie then I can play historical games. I can understand people not wanting to play games set it conflicts they have experience in but this certainly isn't the case for everyone- When I bought a 28mm modern wargame to my club the first person to show interest was an ex soldier who was very keen to play insurgents but has no interest in playing the regular military side.

[redben]

Sorry. I'll say no more.

Which is not to diminish the contributions made by all those who have rightly refuted his thesis

[HavoK]

Well as long as you dont do a economy-rescourse-euro-style boardgame with, let's say, concentrationcamp theme (or something along those lines) im pretty ok with gaming basically any period, conflict, theme etc..

[Crazy Harborc]

Been a wargamer for over 40 years. I've been playing with toy soldiers for just about 63 years (I'm 68). Before I discovered wargaming (with rules, dice, etc). I did parades with my troops.

In grade school, I took to school my painted toy "historical" soldiers for "show and tells" in class. Got teased...but did not care nor stop playing with, reading about, soldiers of history. As I grew up my toy soldiers became more than just stuff/toys/etc. Sadly, the childhood toy soldiers are gone. No more rolling marbles across a floor at lines of troops.

As to any fear of glorifing war or whatever...no not in my mind. I am a Nam vet, I did my 366 days in Viet Nam, 67-68 in I Corp, in and around Da Nang. I do not do Viet Nam War wargaming..

For me, I enjoy reading about uniforms, armour and all that. I assemble, paint etc, it is part of the hobby for me. I gave up on Chess....not for me.

Feel weird/odd....no way, been playing with my toys from childhood, raised my daughters, grand children, friends and relatives. Wargaming has been done for thousands of years. The hobby of kings, icons of history, movie stars, men (some women too...mostly boys and men) throughout history. Miniatures made from wood, of clay, metal, plastic, glass, whatever.

I feel sorry for the millions who have not experienced the fun, the knowledge gained from historical minies. Maps from books on tabletops in 3D, 360 degree...3D. You can "see" the troops.

[adamwelton]

Bloody hell, why is there no "Thanks for this post", "I like this post" or even a reputation button I can press about a thousand times for the gentleman and his post above?

My hat is removed in your august presence, Sir.

[6mmhero]

EDIT: And I find it interesting how people get upset about gamers displaying Waffen SS symbols for example while average teenagers walk around in Che Guevera t-shirts. Che inspired revolutions that caused more death and misery then the Waffen SS could have ever hoped to achieve. Even in wargaming the Soviets are treated much more positively than the Nazis.

I am with on this point, Che and various other Communist personalities are treated in a manner that does illustrate some of the bloodletting that they are responsible for. However this is just the world that we live in and how Che has been marketed. I had one person think that Che was from Rage Against the Machine based on the Tshirt they had seen.
However when it comes to the SS tshirts they are worn by people that should know a little better than the average teen. I have also heard people talk in glowing terms of the Waffen SS based on the perceived martial prowess and they overlook the other nastier points that the divisions were involved in.
Yes the Soviets do get viewed in a much more favorable light then they should be. Lets face it they went on quite a rampage through what was Prussia, East Germany and Eastern Europe. But then the Soviets were our allies at that point so this is hardly surprising.

[Aedes]

Very interesting discussion!
I also grew up with "toy soldiers" and my dad took me to a local historical tin soldier museum where you can look at whole rooms full of huge colourful historical armies locked in battle...
(I could spend hours in there looking at all the artfully arranged armies)
Plus my granddad used to show me his foto album of the invasion of Russia (taking pictures was officially forbidden, but he did it anyway) which included some not so child save pictures...
So I was aware quite early in my life what the difference of a game and reality is, that history is very bloody and that a lot of people die in war.
Despite this, I have never been put off by war gaming or creating my own historical dioramas (maybe I should also add that I am female...).
I agree with many posts here that it is worse to forget about our bloody history and do not learn from it.
Especially in historical war gaming- doesnt re-arranging historical battles teach us something?
Dont we re-consider "what if" scenarios?
What if we could have saved all those people? What if the battle took a different course?
And in addition- when I play with my armies, I always try to look after my guys and feel for them when they "die" (but that might just be a female trait).

[ted1138]

A game is just a game. Real life is real life. No one should be made to feel guilty for playing a game...

[big p from gmg]

I love fantasy battle games and sci-fi... BUT... the idea of playing historical wargaming really perturbs me.

When you're busy re-enacting battles that really did kill hundreds of thousands of people don't you ever feel a bit weirded out by it all? Is there an element of militarism in the historical wargaming community? An undercurrent of death, or more precisely, state regimented murder worship?

Don't get me wrong, I've competed in thai boxing, western boxing and grappling... I think violence can actually be a creative force for the individual. However mass organised murder is a whole different ballgame.

I guess my question really is, is historical wargaming a little disrespectful to all those who lost their lives?

I'm not wanting to start an argument I'm just trying to identify if anyone ever thinks about these themes. Thanks.

Given that the 40k background is heaviliy influenced by WW2 its all the same really.

Sounds a bit like someone just swallowed a philiosphy testbook and is trying out some new views on war... War is not state organised murder. It is a means to prosecuting state policy... It does not immediately lead to deaths, and they are not murder as they are killings justified under international convention.

Yoy ask if its disrespectful to wargame historical wars?

I think its far worse to call the soldiers that destroyed the Third Reich murderers... A very naive thing to say.

Wargaming is a game... Its a recreational past time, and its setting merely reflects the players particular historical interest. My main influence is WW2 and thus, after having done a degree based on it and lectured on WW2, it too is my main source of gaming enjoyment, along with a great deal of research.

My family fought long and hard in WW2 and all the veterans that have seen my games have loved them... One even asked me to do his tank up so he could be part of my army.

I honestly cant stand these daft ideas that playing toy soldiers is immoral. Its the same crowd that tried to ban roleplaying games as they thought it was devil worship. Posts like this are just trolling...



Now Im off to listen to Horst Wessel while I read Mein Kampf and dream of invading Poland...

[Codsticker]

Posts like this are just trolling...

Please do not accuse other users of trolling.

This is a sensitive subject and so far it has been well treated here; I will continue to monitor this thread.

Codsticker

The Warseer Mod Squad

[Bloodknight]

I have also heard people talk in glowing terms of the Waffen SS based on the perceived martial prowess

Can't believe that people are still falling for the anglosaxon WWII Uber-SS-propaganda lie. Most of the Waffen-SS were substandard troops, often conscripted, poorly trained and distinctly unreliable. I guess they got the mythos to make victory over them look better .


That said, I wouldn't touch a WW2 game with a 10 foot pole, my personal mark of respect is at about 100 years after the war in question ended, when just about every participant is dead. i.e. WWI is ok with me, WWII is not (especially not if it's done as unrespectfully as FoW is, as a German I find a lot of their stuff plainly disgusting). My personal periods would be 1618-48 and colonial conflicts in Africa, but I prefer Sci-Fi and Fantasy games over historicals.

[Crazy Harborc]

I still stay away from Viet Nam era gaming. I don't like Korean War wargaming either. I saw nightly news reels about Korea on the national network news. I watched what mom and dad watched.

My opponents and I have not played 40K, WHFB or any GW systems in 2-3 years. We have 4 sets of historical rules. We play a set of rules for 6-12 months, using different eras or whatever.

We have got a "hangout" added in a few months ago too. 6-12 retired, old farts who wargame, get together once a month on a weekday for breakfast at Ihop. We then game at a local indie with tables in the shop. We play ACW, British Colonials, WWII.

[HavoK]

I can tell as much as, I am Bosnian, and would in theory not mind playing say, force on force depitcting the wars on the balkans during the early 90's. Although I think that I would find some things disturbing and a bit to sensitive when it comes down to actually doing it, and would probably pass on that specific conflict/era because I really would not like to game something that I still can feel affects a lot of people around me including myself!

[Stuart-GreatEscapeGames]

It seems that the great Ernesto 'Che' Guevara, one of recent history's greatest heroes, has been mixed up with someone else. To make comparisons between him and the nazis is pretty disgusting.

I have no problem gaming any era. I treat my wargaming as an extension of my education. Ultimately virtually every war is futile. I find more offence in the words "Our Glorious Dead" - as if being blown up for someone else's argument could be glorious - on monuments to the Great War than I could in playing with toy soldiers.

[Vos]

Some people are offended by anything, others by nothing..... Its all a matter of taste.
For me, if you are offended by playing with toy soldiers then you should eb equally offended by films, comics and fiction that is war based entertainment. The same might be true of chess and risk - they're only marginally more abstract than wargames, its just that the counters dont represent actual units.

For me, people who rant against wargaming are up there with the "If you played D&D at High School then you're a closet devil woprshipper" brigade and should be listened to politely.... and then ignored by the more reasonable majority view of hey - its just a fun game.

Vos

[LuciusAR]

No, I’ve never felt odd about playing historical games. If anything I find most historical wargamers are very respectful of what war is like and what soldiers actually went through, which is why in historical games you rarely see people fighting down the last miniature. Playing a game of Flames of War to me is no more fetishism that watching an episode Band of Brothers.

It’s also worth remembering that one of the fathers of modern historical wargaming was Brigadier Peter Young who actually fought in WW2. If it’s good enough for someone like him then I don’t see what business we have to get offended on his behalf.

As someone above said I see more death fetishism in the average 40k game that I’ve ever seen in a historical one.

That said, I wouldn't touch a WW2 game with a 10 foot pole, my personal mark of respect is at about 100 years after the war in question ended, when just about every participant is dead. i.e. WWI is ok with me, WWII is not (especially not if it's done as unrespectfully as FoW is, as a German I find a lot of their stuff plainly disgusting). My personal periods would be 1618-48 and colonial conflicts in Africa, but I prefer Sci-Fi and Fantasy games over historicals.

Funny you should say that because it’s my experience that WW1 still remains the most controversial war to game. I know plenty of gamers who will happily play modern games but won’t touch WW1.

Just out of interest what is it about FOW’s portrayal of the Germans you dislike? I can’t say I’ve seen anything by them that I find particularly disrespectful.

[Bloodknight]

I can’t say I’ve seen anything by them that I find particularly disrespectful.

It's not disrespectful to Germans, it's the Ubernazi-attitude in the books that's awful.

I'll quote from an open letter the German FoW community wrote to the makers of the game (ignore the language errors, the letter was already in circulation when I offered to proof-read it :-/ )

For point a) , I have to explain a few things for players and people, who are not from germany and don't know the existing laws here.
German laws forbid the possession of certain symbols and insignia from the 3. Reich. Showing in public of this symbols is forbidden too and you can get a fine for doing so. The § you should look at is §86 + §86a StGB. There are exceptions in this law, mainly for historical education, arts and militaria, but this exception can't be used to exclude tabletop or modelling hobbies from this law.
So it is possible, that the police comes in the LGS (or some other public room where the game is played), sees certain open books (like Cobra or Afrika) or the DAK dices and gives the players and owner of the room fines. In very bad circumstances, you can be sued for selling and showing products with symbols of the 3. Reich in public. We had this situation already in germany and we fear, that when the game grows bigger here, that this situations will be a regular sighting.
Many sellers of FoW products, may they be onlineshops or LGS, are now censoring the books with black stickers or black paint, where they see problematic symbols. Few sellers even don't sell certain products because of this fines and possible sues.
So you see, we in Germany have real problems with the extensive use and showing of symbols from the 3. Reich in the last books. I provide you a link to a .pdf from the police in Hessen with some (not all!) forbidden symbols in germany:
http://www.polizei.hessen.de/interne...b-28e46ce02000 (http://www.polizei.hessen.de/interne...b-28e46ce02000)
Looking at the new Art of War Book, we are even more concerned...

We could defend the game as a “tactical, historical Tabletop Game without political statements” but now, we can't anymore. We don't know why you used the phrases “Gestapo Announcement” and “Fascist Fashion” but for us, this is a real bad move of advertising a product. You choosed to advertise a book for a game with one of the brutal and human.despising organisations of the 3. Reich. The german community is more than horrified and wants to protest against this unbearable advertising!
The choosing of the Gestapo on the cover of a gamingbook is unsensibel and a heavy mockery of the victims of the 3. Reich. We lived with the SS Hype last year, seeing, that you just wanted to push the sales of certain products more and more on the US market. This was difficult enough for us in germany, because in the fluff texts in the books, this murders of the regime were the “Uber” warriors in the Wehrmacht, which is just a lie and not written from a neutral point of view.
But using the Gestapo as another selling argument for your products is more than unbearable and disgusting!
We don't know, which player type you want to attract with this aggressive advertisement and the using of unreflected phrases and “myths”, but we won't go this way any further without protesting. The gaming books in the past weren't written in this style and didn't show on every page swastikas or SS Markings, they were more neutral, emphasising, that Battlefront won't do a political statement . They were gaming books and gaming aids, nothing more.
So, what changed your mind towards this more aggressive and propagandistic way of advertising?
Are new players, even if they are from the wrong political spectrum, really worth this morale price?

Funny you should say that because it’s my experience that WW1 still remains the most controversial war to game.

Probably a cultural thing. We react much worse to Nazi stuff than anything relating to the 2nd German Empire.

That said, it's not just historicals, in 40K the Armageddon Steel Legion irks me a lot, too since it's basically German WWII paratroopers using the flag of the British Union of Fascists.