Space Wolves anti-psychic powers Wolf Tail

[Aertes]

The other day i had a discussion with a player about this thing that made a lot of doubts arise.
If I read it well, it states that "if a psychic power affects the bearer or his unit, the power will be dispelled on a roll of 5+". More or less.

Now let's say a unit of Grey Knights inflicts a wound to the bearer or the unit in melee and then activate their nemesis force weapons successfully. Does that count as a power that affects the unit?.

Now lets say a Space Marine Librarian activates its nullifying zone, but the the bearer has not any invulnerable save and neither does his unit. Does that count as a power that affects the unit?.

Now lets say a Genestealer Patriarch activates its -1 Leadership aura when he is more than 12` away and, in the next turn, the bearer or his unit enters within the aura. Can the power be nullified the turn after it was activated?.

[WildWeasel]

In the first case, the psychic power part of force weapons affect the bearer, granting ID to their attacks. So a WTT wouldn't trigger, as the Wolf isn't being affected by a psychic power, just an attack that happens to have been affected by a psychic power itself.

In the latter two cases, the model is being affected by a psychic power (even if the affect is pointless), so WTT would trigger and cancel the power on a 5+.

[Rosco151]

I have to disagree - I thought that for any Psyker using their Force Weapon to cause Instant Death, it counted as a psychic power? For example, if a non-epistolary Librarian had already cast a power in his turn, he would not be able to use the Instant Death ability as it would count as the use of another power.

Activating the Instant Death for Nemesis Weapons works in the same way doesn't it? You roll to hit, roll to wound, the opponent rolls to save, THEN you can roll for Instant Death effect on any wounds that are not saved? You aren't imbuing ALL of your attacks with the Instant Death effect, you are rolling to use your ability to destroy the enemies soul with the hits that caused damage.

I would say that the Wolf Tail Talisman can be used against it.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

The wording on the Codex is to affect the wounds suffered. Is this something that is affecting the target unit?

An answer is, that if it was, the Khorne thing wouldn't have to explicitaly state force weapons, it would just be another power.

[Erik_Morkai]

I have to disagree - I thought that for any Psyker using their Force Weapon to cause Instant Death, it counted as a psychic power? For example, if a non-epistolary Librarian had already cast a power in his turn, he would not be able to use the Instant Death ability as it would count as the use of another power.

Activating the Instant Death for Nemesis Weapons works in the same way doesn't it? You roll to hit, roll to wound, the opponent rolls to save, THEN you can roll for Instant Death effect on any wounds that are not saved? You aren't imbuing ALL of your attacks with the Instant Death effect, you are rolling to use your ability to destroy the enemies soul with the hits that caused damage.

I would say that the Wolf Tail Talisman can be used against it.

Exactly. The wound is allocated to a model BEFORE the force weapon roll since in the case of a terminator the model would be allowed his invul save against the power weapon part of the attack. Therefore the unit will be directly affected by the result of the psychic power. The WTT kicks in and allows a save.

[Aertes]

The other cases seem to be clear, now the discussion is around the Nemesis Force Weapons.

I read it very slowly and I see it similar to Hammerhand, Quicksilver, Power of Titan and all other psychic powers that affect the caster. They all are used on the caster and provide certain effects to the caster. The wolf with WTT will suffer the consequences, that's true, but the power doesn't affect him, aim him nor even touch him in.

[Aertes]

Therefore the unit will be directly affected by the result of the psychic power. The WTT kicks in and allows a save.

Now lets say that the WTT is in a unit, and theres another Space Wolf unit in the same melee combat. The Grey Knight attacks the unit without WTT and activates the nemesis force weapons. Now what?. The power was activated without touching the WTT or his unit in any way.

[Sabe]

For purely defensive psychic defense items like WTT's or Gloom Prism's what your looking for is if the opponents psychic power specifically targets one or more of your models. Most aura's or buffing powers won't qualify, even if they do impact you negatively, because they did not target you. Force Weapons of course DO target one of your models and are good for taking a roll against.

[Aertes]

Force Weapons of course DO target one of your models and are good for taking a roll against.

I totally agree, but we are not talking about force weapons, but about nemesis force weapons, wich are differently worded (thanks again Matt Ward).

[Kijamon]

Does the weapon/power need a psychic test to activate (even automatically passing characters like Typhus)?

Does the psychic power impact on the squad containing the holder of the WTT?

If yes to all of the above, you get the benefits of the WTT.

A couple of posts up you asked what happens if squad A has a WTT and the bearer is in the same combat with an allied squad B against a grey knights squad 1.

Squad 1 activates the weapon against squad B, no WTT effect. Squad 1 activates the weapon against squad A, WTT comes into play here.

[Aertes]

Keeping in mind we are talking about nemesis force weapons:

Does the weapon/power need a psychic test to activate (even automatically passing characters like Typhus)?

Yes.

Does the psychic power impact on the squad containing the holder of the WTT?

No, the psychic power doesn't impact nor even aims the squad containing WTT.

A couple of posts up you asked what happens if squad A has a WTT and the bearer is in the same combat with an allied squad B against a grey knights squad 1.
Squad 1 activates the weapon against squad B, no WTT effect. Squad 1 activates the weapon against squad A, WTT comes into play here.

The power isn't activated "against" anyone. It's activated "when" the first normal wounds are dealt in the melee combat, and it's effect is never aimed to any enemy but to the own unit's melee attacks.

[Rosco151]

In the Nemesis Force Weapons section of the GK Dex, it says that they are Force Weapons as per the Main Rulebook (Page 50). Any further detail in the GK Dex purely deals with the complexity of activating them Squad-wide instead of with a single character.

Main Rulebook clearly states that once any unsaved wounds are caused, then a psychic test is needed to use the weapons power against the sufferer of the wound. It also says that this power follows all the rules for the use of psychic powers.

It IS a power, that IS activated against someone. It DOES impact the squad containing the Wolf Tail Talisman. Are we really going to debate this any further?

[ehlijen]

In the Nemesis Force Weapons section of the GK Dex, it says that they are Force Weapons as per the Main Rulebook (Page 50). Any further detail in the GK Dex purely deals with the complexity of activating them Squad-wide instead of with a single character.

Main Rulebook clearly states that once any unsaved wounds are caused, then a psychic test is needed to use the weapons power against the sufferer of the wound. It also says that this power follows all the rules for the use of psychic powers.

It IS a power, that IS activated against someone. It DOES impact the squad containing the Wolf Tail Talisman. Are we really going to debate this any further?

Yes, because you are ignoring the part where it differentiates Nemesis Force weapons. They are force weapons except where their own rules differ. And one point in which they differ is how they are activated. NFWs are activated before any hits are landed or any wounds are caused. They also make all wounds caused ID wounds, unlike regular FWs which can only affect a single already wounded target.

Because they are activated before the GK player even decides who to strike against (there could be a choice) their power is not targetted at any particular enemy.

[lantzkev]

Keeping in mind we are talking about nemesis force weapons:


Yes.


No, the psychic power doesn't impact nor even aims the squad containing WTT.


The power isn't activated "against" anyone. It's activated "when" the first normal wounds are dealt in the melee combat, and it's effect is never aimed to any enemy but to the own unit's melee attacks.

actually you need to reread the activation of a force weapon for insta death.

The key word is "...weapons power against any one opponent...
Most models unless they have a special rule are targeting with their insta death. There are a few execeptions like the unit that says "when activated all wounds the squad inflicts insta death"

The nemesis force weapons in addition to acting like a force weapon have several effects that happen REGARDLESS of if they are activated.

[Rosco151]

Yes, because you are ignoring the part where it differentiates Nemesis Force weapons. They are force weapons except where their own rules differ. And one point in which they differ is how they are activated. NFWs are activated before any hits are landed or any wounds are caused. They also make all wounds caused ID wounds, unlike regular FWs which can only affect a single already wounded target.

Because they are activated before the GK player even decides who to strike against (there could be a choice) their power is not targetted at any particular enemy.

There isn't a single part of the Nemesis rules that even infers that they roll before striking, I don't know where you get that from. If it's there, could you show me?

They still follow the rules for Force Weapons as per the Main Rulebook. As I stated, the GK Dex differentiates the Nemesis weapons ONLY in how they are activated on a squad level. Force Weapons Instant Death is activated after any wounds are suffered by the target.

The Instant Death effect is still a psychic power, as per the Main Rulebook rules for Force Weapons (requires a psychic test to activate), and it affects any wounds caused by the Nemesis weapons against their targets.

The GK Dex states that in the case of multiple Initiative values in the Grey Knights unit, you roll to activate after the first wounds caused. This is merely an accomodation to the rule that a single test is required for the whole unit. It doesn't state anywhere that the test to activate is taken before anyone is struck. It specifically says that they follow the Main Rulebook section on Force Weapons.

It states that all wounds caused have Instant Death because, once again, the differentiation between a single model with a force weapon and a squadful of the things is required. The distinction wasn't required in the Main Rulebook, because a single model would be causing wounds against a single model.

[Aertes]

It states that all wounds caused have Instant Death because, once again, the differentiation between a single model with a force weapon and a squadful of the things is required. The distinction wasn't required in the Main Rulebook, because a single model would be causing wounds against a single model.

No true, a single model can attack several different units, aiming each attack to each unit he is able to. A normal force weapon has to aim who it wants to deal instant death, but a nemesis force weapon aims noone.

Normal force weapon's psychic power aims a model that was wounded by the weapon and inflicts instant death to it. Nemesis force weapon's psychic power is a mere activation with no objective or aiming, it just grats its wounds the ability of provoking instant death. As i said, it can even be activated by wounding another unit different from the WTT bearers.

[Rosco151]

Aertes, Nemesis weapons still target the unit that the Grey Knights are in assault with. My point was that while Force Weapon rules are written as if targetting an individual (because prior to Grey Knights, this was the only possibility), Nemesis weapons still have a target that they affect - the unit facing the Grey Knights in assault. Unless they just wave them around in the air?

Force Weapons DO NOT AIM at anyone, the attacks dealt by the weapon in assault do, and the Instant Death is applied via these attacks. Nemesis weapons are the same.

You're still missing the parts where:

A) The GK Dex states that Nemesis weapons are Force Weapons as per the Main Rulebook

B) There is both objective and aiming with the activation of Instant Death with Nemesis weapons.

Timeline as per this:
Grey Knights attack another unit in assault. They roll for hits, roll to wound AND THEN roll to activate the Instant Death against anyone who suffered an unsaved wound. All as per the Force Weapon rules in the Main Rulebook. If the Instant Death effect is activated, it is targeted at anyone in the opposing unit who suffered an unsaved wound.

In the case of differing initiatives, you roll for whichever member of the Grey Knight unit is going first. Once you have rolled the first guys hits, and if you cause any unsaved wounds to the target unit, YOU THEN ROLL TO SEE IF THE INSTANT DEATH EFFECT ACTIVATES AS PER THE FORCE WEAPON RULES IN THE MAIN RULEBOOK.

Because the Grey Knights only need one psychic test for the effect to apply to the entire unit, if that first guy activates successfully, then it counts for the rest of the unit. The only difference to the mechanic of the FORCE WEAPONS IN THE RULEBOOK, is that you then do not have to roll for each individual guy once wounds are caused.

You are seeing a difference where there is none. The only divergence is in the timing of the roll, in that you roll once to activate with every member of the squad. If everyone in the Grey Knight was at the same Initiative, you would make that roll once any unsaved wounds had been caused, AS PER THE FORCE WEAPONS RULES IN THE MAIN RULEBOOK.

It can't be stated any more clearly than I already have done, as per the rules in the Grey Knight Codex AND IN CONJUNCTION with the preceding rules for Force Weapons in the Main Rulebook.

Quite simply, Nemesis weapons function as per Force Weapons, right down to the fact that the Instant Death ability is a psychic attack targetting anyone who was wounded by the weapons. The ONLY instance in which the power is activated before hits, is if a member of the Grey Knight unit attacks with a higher Initiative before the rest of the squad. Even in this case, the power works EXACTLY as per the Force Weapon rules, in that the roll is made after any unsaved wounds are suffered by the target. Yes, the rest of the unit then has the Instant Death effect on their attacks, but apart from the timing of that activation roll it works EXACTLY as per the Force Weapon rules.

[DoctorTom]

You're still missing the parts where:

A) The GK Dex states that Nemesis weapons are Force Weapons as per the Main Rulebook

Except where modified by the NFW rules.

Now, the NFW rules state "If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death." (p.54). So, what is the target of the power? The Nemesis force weapons. They don't mention the enemy unit at all in that description, only that the properties of the weapon change if the test is passed. This is different from saying if you pass the test, the wounded model is subject to instant death - then it would be the model that is the target. You don't have that here.

EDIT: You seem hung up on the activation roll. If the GK unit is in a multiple combat with 2 different SW units, and the first wound it inflicts is against the unit without the wolf tail, then according to what you're saying the target of the activation roll would be the wound on the unit without the Tail, not the unit with. Would you insist that the Wolf Tail still work against the Grey Knights then?

[Rosco151]

It's not that I'm getting hung up on the activation roll, it's that activation roll and it's timing that is a big part of it.

The roll for the unit does not change the fact that Nemesis weapons are Force weapons, and that the instant death thing is a psychic power used via the weapon. The Main Rulebook states that a Force Weapon confers an additional psychic power upon the user, the power to extinguish the life force of the opponent. THAT is a psychic attack targeting the unit wounded by the weapon, which surely would allow a save from a Wolf Tail Talisman?

The multiple initiative example in the GK Dex confirms this for me - for that guy going first, his Nemesis weapon functions EXACTLY as per a regular Force weapon. So in that case, it's a completely different rule? No, it's just that the roll for that individuals use of the psychic power has to be made then, and as per Grey Knight rules, that roll counts for the whole unit.

Nothing in the GK Dex supercedes the Main Rulebook on how the instant death works, or how it is as a psychic attack. The Force weapon, or Nemesis simply confers the power upon it's bearer.

In the multiple assault example you give, I would say that the unit with the wolf tail talisman would get to save against any instant death against it's members, and a successful save would dispel that individual effect of the attack that was saved against. The unit without the WTT would still suffer the effect without a save.

[lantzkev]

The force weapons are modified force weapons, they do not target anyone. When activated they just make all wounds inflicted deal instant death. They do not target anyone...

The guy going first does not act as a normal, because if he inflicts two, it'll instantly kill two. where a normal force weapon can only inflict it on one model.