Space Wolves anti-psychic powers Wolf Tail

[Rosco151]

The power is different, don't you see? One power gives one of your attacks that have went through instant death. The other power gives all of your attacks that have went through instant death. WHat you are attacking is irrelivant. The two powers are different. So since the weapons give you different powers, are they not differet weapons?

No I don't see, because that point doesn't exist. There aren't 2 powers at work. The rules never even infer that there are 2 different powers. Once again, please show where it says there is if I'm wrong? There's nothing saying that when a squad has different Initiative values, a second, alternative power is used, just that the same power is activated in a different way to accommodate the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

It's one power, used as per the force weapons rules. Once again, that's exactly as the Grey Knights Dex states under the Nemesis weapon rules.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Oh you wanted a quote. Sure.

Force weapons give you "If the test is passed the model suffers instant death" SO the model, one model.
Nemesis force weapons give you "If the test is passed ALL wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death" So the wounds, for several models.

All that is before the whole multiple initiative thing.

The entry tells you it acts like a force weapon so it doesn't have to tell you that it gives you a psychic power that you roll after having wounded an enemy. But then it lists the power it gives you and it is different.

[Rosco151]

It HAS to say that ALL wounds for the units Nemesis weapons inflict Instant Death, because you will be dealing with all unsaved wounds that are caused by the unit as a whole triggering the power.

If it wasn't for that ruling, you would have to roll individually for each member of the squad to activate the power, and it would work exactly as per the standard force weapon rules. Correct? But because of the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, which states that for a unit of GK to use a power they only conduct one psychic test, that sentence is there to resolve that conflict.

As I've said before, it doesn't change the power or how Nemesis weapons use the force weapon rules. It only changes how the squad activates it.

Look at the situation when you have a squad attacking at the same Initiative across the board (again). Hit, wound, opponent saves, unsaved wounds trigger the roll for the Instant Death power. All as per the standard force weapon rules, because it doesn't break the GK Brotherhood of Psykers rule. Same in the Independent Character situation - hit, wound, saves, unsaved wounds trigger use of the power. There is nothing in the Nemesis weapon rules to say that they are any different from standard force weapons in those situations. There is nothing in the multi-Initiative example either, it just tells how to deal with the Brotherhood of Psyker requirement for a single psychic test in that situation.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

You really don't get it do you? A model armed with a standard force weapon, out of lets say three wounds, gets to roll the psychic test and have one of the three be insant death. With a nemesis force weapon, all three would be instant death. Against a multi wound squad this is huge. And it makes the weapons different.

[Erik_Morkai]

You really don't get it do you? A model armed with a standard force weapon, out of lets say three wounds, gets to roll the psychic test and have one of the three be insant death. With a nemesis force weapon, all three would be instant death. Against a multi wound squad this is huge. And it makes the weapons different.

How does that affect the initial question of the WTT working or not? 3 wounds or 300 does not change the fact it's a direct effect of the psychic power.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

It does affect it in a way.
A regular force weapon targets the model suffering the wound directly. The wording of the nemesis one is different and may be open for debate. But there is also the rule that says that the nemesis weapons follow the regular force weapon rules. So it gets a bit tangled.

[Erik_Morkai]

It does affect it in a way.
A regular force weapon targets the model suffering the wound directly. The wording of the nemesis one is different and may be open for debate. But there is also the rule that says that the nemesis weapons follow the regular force weapon rules. So it gets a bit tangled.

mmmm no. Nothing gets tangled. I read and re-read. The only difference is in the way it is activated per the 'Brotherhood of Psykers'. As for the other wounds beyond the first. It says and I quote: "
Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis Force Weapon that phase will be bound by the result of that psychic test."

The wounds causing instant death are directly linked to the psychic test. The WTT will apply.

If you read the text carefully you will notice that it starts off saying the weapons are force weapons per BRB.
Then comes the Brotherhood of psyker special rule which deal with the activation. Once the activation rule ends with a period it goes on to say that the subsequent wounds are bound by the psychic test. If the wounds are bound by the psychic test how can that NOT be a direct effect?

[TheGreatDalmuti]

The "tangled" part was for the regular force weapons getting in here.

It may not be a direct effect because the wounds are shown to be affected and not the enemy models.

[Egaeus]

It may not be a direct effect because the wounds are shown to be affected and not the enemy models.

The end effect is that a model suffers Instant Death that it would not if the Force Weapon was not "in use". So even if one claims the power only affects the wounds, the wounds affect the model and so ultimately the power affects the model.

This is why I brought up Hammerhand earlier, as I think an argument could be made that if a unit is suffering wounds that it wouldn't be if the power weren't in effect (for example being wounded on 3s instead of 4s) then that power is having an affect on the unit and qualifies for potential nullification. The WTT has no qualifiers that a power has to be used on or targeted at the unit for its effects to be nullified.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

And by that reasoning it could nullify "Guide"? Where do we stop? Nullify "fortune" because it saves more enemies and you now have to brake from combat?
Anyway, the attacker is making the attacks and has to make a roll so hammerhand affects him, his rolls. Nullzone can be sayd to affect the defender, since he is making those rolls. And all that without any targeting consideration, actually in the rules, in mind.

All this would be completely straight forward if you had to take the test at the begginning of combat and gave your attacks the "instant death" rule.

[Stonerhino]

Per the FAQ "Veil of Tears" is affected by Kharn's special rule. That also happens to effect psychic powers that effect him.

[Rosco151]

Dalmuti, when a Force weapon uses the Instant Death power, it isn't one of the wounds that inflicts Instant Death, it's the power seperately. The unsaved wound (or wounds) merely trigger the opportunity to use the power. That is a power directly affecting the target.

That works fine when dealing with a single user and a single target.

At squad level there are complications - you have multiple users hitting multiple targets. Throw in the wound allocation rules, that some targets will save successfully and others won't, and the multi-wound units we have out there, and the rules for force weapons could lead to some confusion.

GW tried to smooth that out, and avoid breaking the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, by simply stating that all attacks have the instant death effect following a successful psychic test.

At no point in the rules for Nemesis weapons does it say that rather than having the Instant Death power in the basic force weapon rules, Nemesis weapons have a different power. They just employ the same power in a different way.

That same power sucks the life force out of a model wounded by the Nemesis weapon.

That is a power that directly affects a target. Hence, Wolf Tail Talisman provides a save against.

Guide? Makes the Eldar unit better at shooting. It's still there regular guns and ammo wounding and killing the target - no WTT save.

Fortune? Targets an Eldar unit and provides them with a re-roll. Does not directly affect the Space Wolf with the WTT in any way, so no save.

Hammerhand? I would have to say no save there either. It strengthens the GK unit, their improved strength helps them to wound the target, but it just means that they can swing their weapons a bit harder. The direct cause of those wounds is the weapon, which itself is not affected by the power, just the wielder. Hence, no WTT save IMO.

But the GK instant death effect from a Nemesis weapon is still as per the force weapon description - the targets life force is sucked out or extinguished. The Nemesis weapon doesn't do that itself, the power does. Therefore, WTT save against each individual wound caused.

However, from so much deliberation, re-reading and comparison of the rules, I would say this: If a multi-wound Space Wolf suffers 2 unsaved wounds via a Nemesis weapon, and the power is successfully activated, that's going to be 2 WTT saves. This is because the only way the Nemesis weapons deviate from the force weapon rules (other than the timing of squad level activation) is that rather than a single psychic attack against a wounded model, after the wounds have been caused, each unsaved wound tries to kill the target. It makes the Nemesis weapons more deadly than regular force weapons (which I would say is in accordance with fluff and intention), as rather than just having to save once to stay alive (as he would against a regular force weapon), he has to pass that save multiple times. If one gets through, he's dead.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

I understand why they did it. But the thing is it is more powerfull, and so ultimatelly different.

Leave the brotherhood out and just take a regular librarian and a GK one. Now attack a unit of DE Grotesques. Understand what is about to happen. You don't have a unit compared to a single model to complicate things, you have two librarians.

One librarian can kill up to one opposing model, the one he uses his power on. The other librarian can kill several oposing models, since his power will affect more than one of the models he wounds. This may be because it makes more sence at a unit level and they didn't want a different wording for units with brotherhood and characters. But the end result is you end up with two different powers that are worded differently. The activasion is the same. Ergo the referance to original force weapons.

[Erik_Morkai]

However, from so much deliberation, re-reading and comparison of the rules, I would say this: If a multi-wound Space Wolf suffers 2 unsaved wounds via a Nemesis weapon, and the power is successfully activated, that's going to be 2 WTT saves.

Actually I disagree on that. The two instant death are the result of the same power and same psychic test. 1 WTT save would nullify ALL instant death wound during that assault phase. That's the downside of group activation. Yes ALL the wounds will deal instant death but as mentionned in the book ALL wounds are bound by the result of that psychic test.

If the GK took one activation roll each then I would see the WTT getting a chance for each GK.

[Rosco151]

I understand why they did it. But the thing is it is more powerfull, and so ultimatelly different.

Leave the brotherhood out and just take a regular librarian and a GK one. Now attack a unit of DE Grotesques. Understand what is about to happen. You don't have a unit compared to a single model to complicate things, you have two librarians.

One librarian can kill up to one opposing model, the one he uses his power on. The other librarian can kill several oposing models, since his power will affect more than one of the models he wounds. This may be because it makes more sence at a unit level and they didn't want a different wording for units with brotherhood and characters. But the end result is you end up with two different powers that are worded differently. The activasion is the same. Ergo the referance to original force weapons.

If that's true, then why refer to the force weapon rules at all? The very first line of the Nemesis rules does so though. GW could have just said they are power weapons whose unsaved wounds inflict instant death upon a successful psychic test. THAT would be a different power, and require no reference to the force weapon rules. If it was just the activation that was the same, then there would be no need to refer to the force weapon rules, as this is standard for any psychic power surely?

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Please let me understand. Are you telling me that you dissagree with the example with the two librarians I gave you? I can't go on if I don't know.

[Egaeus]

Please let me understand. Are you telling me that you dissagree with the example with the two librarians I gave you? I can't go on if I don't know.

After re-reading the rule I do disagree with you. A Grey Knight Librarian's Nemesis Force Weapon is merely a regular Force Weapon. It is only units with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule that get to make all their wounds cause Instant Death and Independent Characters must still activate their weapons seperately.

Edit: And since ICs are seperate units in assault you determine where their wounds go independently of the rest of a unit they are joined to, so there isn't any confusion about "who hit who" which is the apparent reason that units with the BoP rule have souped-up Force Weapons.

[Rosco151]

I do disagree with the 2 Librarian example - nowhere in the Nemesis rules does it say that a single GK would apply the Instant Death effect to all wounds that he causes.

"Force Weapons: All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of it's force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict Instant Death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test."

In the rules above, it specifically says that all members of a units attacks have the instant death rule, following that group activation. A unit, of multiple Grey Knights.

Nowhere does it say the same for an IC, as a Librarian is. Also, it specifies that the unit has to have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, which the Librarian doesn't.

[Rosco151]

I do disagree with the 2 Librarian example - nowhere in the Nemesis rules does it say that a single GK would apply the Instant Death effect to all wounds that he causes.

"Force Weapons: All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of it's force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict Instant Death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test."

In the rules above, it specifically says that all members of a units attacks have the instant death rule, following that group activation. A unit, of multiple Grey Knights.

Nowhere does it say the same for an IC, as a Librarian is. Also, it specifies that the unit has to have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, which the Librarian doesn't.

[TheGreatDalmuti]

Fair enough, a Justicar then. A justicar with his squad gone. You understand where this is going, since you just gave a rule nemesis force weapons have that normal ones don't...